23 deg heads
02-11-2008, 08:34 PM
#11
Senior Member
DYNO TECH
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Leonard, Texas
Posts: 414
I've got Kevin Self working on my 227's as we speak. We'll se what the dyno pull says afterward. :wink:
One of the biggest misconceptions I here everyone talking about is big flow numbers. Seems to me that equally important is the velocity of air being flowed that's most critical, any thoughts on that?
If you look at the flow numbers from a set of AFR 215 raised port and the 227's. The 215's have higher flow numbers out of the box, even though the port volume is smaller. This tells me the velocity of air being moved must be greater as well. This should translate into more torque. Bigger ain't always better.
One of the biggest misconceptions I here everyone talking about is big flow numbers. Seems to me that equally important is the velocity of air being flowed that's most critical, any thoughts on that?
If you look at the flow numbers from a set of AFR 215 raised port and the 227's. The 215's have higher flow numbers out of the box, even though the port volume is smaller. This tells me the velocity of air being moved must be greater as well. This should translate into more torque. Bigger ain't always better.
02-11-2008, 10:49 PM
#12
Junior Member
APPRENTICE
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: sydney ausralia
Posts: 17
im looking for value for my money .if i could get a set of 23deg heads on my 414 to make around 750 hp i would be raped . because as someone els said 18 or 15 deg set up ia a whole new top end . thannks foe your input guys , the only thing thats is hard for me is the distance from me to you . dont get me wrong to buy heads & get them ported then freight isn't a drama its the job if its not right i cant jump in the car & sort it out .
cheers chris
cheers chris
02-11-2008, 11:42 PM
#13
Senior Member
DYNO OPERATOR
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: VA Hospital, Dallas, Tx (214 302 1924) cell-972-464-7400
Posts: 540
This guy I can feel comfortable with recommending and I also put my money where my mouth is by buying his stuff and sending him stuff to do. Honest and will do what he says.
www.raceflowdevelopment.com
His brand new CNC 18 0r 15 deg heads are very good right when you get them. He buys semi-bare bastings unported from EDlebrock and then installs his own port design into them.
AS far as out of the box bigger heads I too like the AFR 227 or the Canfield 220. AFR can use stud rockers though.
Frank at Advanced who is in this thread also has a good reputation so you can pretty much be asured he will also do you right.
Do not go by anything BRodix is advertising as anything near what thier heads actually do. They lie.
I just had two examples of ther trick CNC Heads in my shop and both were very miserable compared to advertised. The best most expensive BB Chevy head they sell is advertised at 571 cfm. You will not find one cylinder head guy in the country who has ever gotten even close to what they are claiming on their benches. Brodix says the head is flowed at 25 inches and that is conveted to 28 inches on that head. Bull!. Out of three different flow benches no one could get it to pull as much as 530 cfm. The other fine example is a new CNC 15 degree head That Weld TECH was supposed to put an awsum port job on before the sale. Advertised at 370 cfm and in reality barely a 350 cfm. I sent those to Curtis last week to get him to wake them up. Brand new heads should do reasonably near what they advertise. Bridix does not come close. Not only that the 15 degree head exhaust. stopped pulling at .600 lift and just held it up to 1 inch. Neither of these two heads were cheap.
Brodix makes a good casting but lies big time about the flow.
Ed
www.raceflowdevelopment.com
His brand new CNC 18 0r 15 deg heads are very good right when you get them. He buys semi-bare bastings unported from EDlebrock and then installs his own port design into them.
AS far as out of the box bigger heads I too like the AFR 227 or the Canfield 220. AFR can use stud rockers though.
Frank at Advanced who is in this thread also has a good reputation so you can pretty much be asured he will also do you right.
Do not go by anything BRodix is advertising as anything near what thier heads actually do. They lie.
I just had two examples of ther trick CNC Heads in my shop and both were very miserable compared to advertised. The best most expensive BB Chevy head they sell is advertised at 571 cfm. You will not find one cylinder head guy in the country who has ever gotten even close to what they are claiming on their benches. Brodix says the head is flowed at 25 inches and that is conveted to 28 inches on that head. Bull!. Out of three different flow benches no one could get it to pull as much as 530 cfm. The other fine example is a new CNC 15 degree head That Weld TECH was supposed to put an awsum port job on before the sale. Advertised at 370 cfm and in reality barely a 350 cfm. I sent those to Curtis last week to get him to wake them up. Brand new heads should do reasonably near what they advertise. Bridix does not come close. Not only that the 15 degree head exhaust. stopped pulling at .600 lift and just held it up to 1 inch. Neither of these two heads were cheap.
Brodix makes a good casting but lies big time about the flow.
Ed
02-12-2008, 05:08 AM
#14
Senior Member
MASTER BUILDER
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 184
Hammertime, thats what I figured, for that $500, you were getting their best work. It would be like my partner, he can port heads, and is a very skilled machiniest, and one of the most mechanicaly inclined guys I have ever met, but, he just doesn;t get into porting.
As far as flow numbers being advertised, I agree with Ed, most are very happy. Sometimes by a lot. Flow benches do vary, and some guys just don;t get that. Mine, from what I have seen localy, is the most conservative. Probably because I am the most honest, lol. Lets be honest, flow numbers sell your work, and heads, always has, probably always will. Although, some of the good from these forumns, is that some guys, are starting to understand how the other dynamics play into it, and, that flow benches do vary. And to be truthful, It really doesn;t matter what the number that the head modifiers bench reads, if he is using the bench for its intended purpose, which is to measure a change of the actual head he is working on. Thats all its for. To measure a change accurately. Not to use as a marketing tool to sell heads. Its also used to measure velocity profiles, stick little flow devices into the port, to find turbulence, and other problems. But, it has gotten so competitive, that, we will just say sharp individuals, have recognized the fact guys buy heads based on flow numbers, and, will maybe "exagerate" them, to make their heads look better. If they are ever called on it, they say something like, well, on our bench it did that, which could be totaly true, or, that was with the prototype port, and, in production, some may be lost, so, some varience could be there. Or, they could use weather differences etc. Or, they say, just bolt it on, and run it. It will run. And in a lot of cases, it does. But, they used dishonesty, to sell you the head. Anyhow, I am rambling.
Velocity was mentioned above. And, that is a very important, key to having the right head. It is also the most confused dynamic in heads. To much is probably worse, than slighty to slow. It absolutely is worst, if your trying to make higher rpm horsepower. Its also something that has to be comprimised, and is used to tune a port to a given combination of engine size, and the desired power band. There is no one correct velocity, for every engine or head. How that correlates, is expierience, from testing, and trial and error. There are some formulas out there, that help you get in the ball park, but, its still an application thing. No easy, cut in stone answer.
As far as the eliminator heads, I have yet to see any, but, from what I have heard and read, from some sharp guys, they have "issues". And its velocity related. Lots of guys sending them back, to be "fixed". But, the problem there is, for a generic port, its hard to match it for every application. SO, there has to be a comprimise. It will work on a lot of application,s and, more than likely, isn;t perfect for any of them. Although, from what I have read as the issues, they are leaving power on the table. One thing you have to realize, with velocity, the more air, thru a given port, the higher the velocity will be. In a lot of cases, guys shoot for the most flow thru the smallest port. In many cases, that theory, doesn;t work. You end up with smoking fast velocity, which, in theory is good, but, doesn;t always work. Its back to that balancing act, and comprimise, and understanding, what the correct airspeed is for the application. Its hard to explain. But, like is always said, velocity is key. But, how you take that, is where the difference comes. Is it, the most possible velocity? No, its the correct velocity for the given application. And, then, figuring out, what that velocity is for what your trying to do. Flow numbers, because of the wide range of varience from bench to bench, aren;t the asnwer. Anyhow, sorry to ramble
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
As far as flow numbers being advertised, I agree with Ed, most are very happy. Sometimes by a lot. Flow benches do vary, and some guys just don;t get that. Mine, from what I have seen localy, is the most conservative. Probably because I am the most honest, lol. Lets be honest, flow numbers sell your work, and heads, always has, probably always will. Although, some of the good from these forumns, is that some guys, are starting to understand how the other dynamics play into it, and, that flow benches do vary. And to be truthful, It really doesn;t matter what the number that the head modifiers bench reads, if he is using the bench for its intended purpose, which is to measure a change of the actual head he is working on. Thats all its for. To measure a change accurately. Not to use as a marketing tool to sell heads. Its also used to measure velocity profiles, stick little flow devices into the port, to find turbulence, and other problems. But, it has gotten so competitive, that, we will just say sharp individuals, have recognized the fact guys buy heads based on flow numbers, and, will maybe "exagerate" them, to make their heads look better. If they are ever called on it, they say something like, well, on our bench it did that, which could be totaly true, or, that was with the prototype port, and, in production, some may be lost, so, some varience could be there. Or, they could use weather differences etc. Or, they say, just bolt it on, and run it. It will run. And in a lot of cases, it does. But, they used dishonesty, to sell you the head. Anyhow, I am rambling.
Velocity was mentioned above. And, that is a very important, key to having the right head. It is also the most confused dynamic in heads. To much is probably worse, than slighty to slow. It absolutely is worst, if your trying to make higher rpm horsepower. Its also something that has to be comprimised, and is used to tune a port to a given combination of engine size, and the desired power band. There is no one correct velocity, for every engine or head. How that correlates, is expierience, from testing, and trial and error. There are some formulas out there, that help you get in the ball park, but, its still an application thing. No easy, cut in stone answer.
As far as the eliminator heads, I have yet to see any, but, from what I have heard and read, from some sharp guys, they have "issues". And its velocity related. Lots of guys sending them back, to be "fixed". But, the problem there is, for a generic port, its hard to match it for every application. SO, there has to be a comprimise. It will work on a lot of application,s and, more than likely, isn;t perfect for any of them. Although, from what I have read as the issues, they are leaving power on the table. One thing you have to realize, with velocity, the more air, thru a given port, the higher the velocity will be. In a lot of cases, guys shoot for the most flow thru the smallest port. In many cases, that theory, doesn;t work. You end up with smoking fast velocity, which, in theory is good, but, doesn;t always work. Its back to that balancing act, and comprimise, and understanding, what the correct airspeed is for the application. Its hard to explain. But, like is always said, velocity is key. But, how you take that, is where the difference comes. Is it, the most possible velocity? No, its the correct velocity for the given application. And, then, figuring out, what that velocity is for what your trying to do. Flow numbers, because of the wide range of varience from bench to bench, aren;t the asnwer. Anyhow, sorry to ramble
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
