Should I Weld It Myself Or Pay A Pro?

[inou2]

I'm not new to racing, just new to welding. I building a '81 Malibu wagon for Super Pro, Super Street, and some Super Gas racing. I've always bought rollers already backhalved and caged, and I want to build a car myself this time. My question is I have done some basic welding, and have a 120v welder and 240v welder, both mig with gas setup. I feel comfortable with the cage work, and would like to do the backhalf also. It is a ladder bar kit for this vehicle. Should I go for it on the frame kit or hire this part out. The chasis guys around here want an arm and a leg, and I have neither to spare. I would appreciate your opinions big time! Thanks!

[lookingaround]

since your new to welding id save up and have someone do it.

[lively]

YOU CAN GET EVERYTHING CUT AND FIT THEN HAVE SOMEONE VERY GOOD WELD IT UP[PEACE OF MIND IS NICE GOING FAST]-----LIVELY

[us7race]

I wouldn't be afraid of doing it yourself.
I done my rear back/half in my S10 with a 110 Welder.
It is holding up just fine. I probably added more support than needed but I'd rather go a little extra than not.

[dcarr511]

I'm not new to racing, just new to welding. I building a '81 Malibu wagon for Super Pro, Super Street, and some Super Gas racing. I've always bought rollers already backhalved and caged, and I want to build a car myself this time. My question is I have done some basic welding, and have a 120v welder and 240v welder, both mig with gas setup. I feel comfortable with the cage work, and would like to do the backhalf also. It is a ladder bar kit for this vehicle. Should I go for it on the frame kit or hire this part out. The chasis guys around here want an arm and a leg, and I have neither to spare. I would appreciate your opinions big time! Thanks!

There's a lot more to it than welding, but welding is a very important part of it. How much welding experience do you have ? Have you ever welded in a Roll Cage ?

If you can weld decently, the welding will be the easiest part of backhalfing the car. There is a lot of measuring and remeasuring. Making sure the rear clip stays square with the body, finding the driveline centerline, mocking up and measuring for the wheel tubs. Figuring out rear housing and wheel widths.

Are you planning on buying a prebent / precut kit, an assembled unit that you put in place then weld in.

Can you put everything in place and tack weld in location and have someone who knows how to weld come over and weld it up ?

Or can you practice enough to make certain 100 % that your welding wont be an issue.

[inou2]

Thanks for the input! I think I'll tack it in, and just have someone from a welding shop finish the welds. Does this sound like a good compromise?

[lively]

I HAVE ALL MY SERIOUS WELDING DONE BY ONE OF MY PRO FRIENDS/ I DO THE SIMPLE WELDS-----TAKE YOUR TIME /MEASURE ONCE/THEN AGAIN/THEN AGAIN --MAKE SURE EVERYTHING FITS AND WORKS TOGETHER[THAT IS WHERE TACKING IN PLACE IS NICE--THEN LET THE PRO TAKE IT FROM THERE---YOU WILL STILL ENJOY IT AND WILL BE BUILDING IT YOURSELF----GOOD LUCK---LIVELY

[edvancedengines]

I am an average self-taught welder with a good Millermatic 200. I guess I look at things different. I have no problem with fabing and engineering and cutting to fit and fitting tubes both square, rectangular and round, when doing front or rear subframes or even complete frame from ground up. Have a 16 foot heavy duty chassis jig. Didn't alwys though. Never had any issues with even my ugliest welding breaking or cracking. My pretty welding is pretty but I can not always make it pretty as I am not a professional. I do get good penetration though and I prep metal by cleaning any rust paint etc away before welding.

No way shape or form will I trust myself to weld up a roll cage for me or for anyone else to ride in. I will go as far as doing the fitting and tacking but will not trust my welding on a roll cage. Usually you are almost as well off financially to just get them to bend fit and weld their cage in instead of going the kit route.

Ed

[Tod74]

ask this guy. This is a repost but maybe you missed it.

http://rides.webshots.com/video/3026513330101149359WVpyxw

[inou2]

Thanks for the all the help on this. I've seen that video before, and it did'nt help my self confidence a bit when it comes to welding! May never leave on the button any more either! :roll:

[Bubstr]

There was good advice here. You may want to tack it and get it welded, but for the future you may want to learn the skills necessary to do it yourself. A good place to start is at your local community college. The course is usually cheap. Practice is what makes a good welder. Work on it and It will be you , you buddies come to for welding.

[knova70]

Do it your self ! thats the only way you will learn,practice on scrap metal till you feel right doing it yourself,That is the way I learned and my car hasnt came apart and I am real hard on my car,putting alot of HP to it,and you will feel the accomplishment of doing it yourself! SO GO FOR IT!

[SST4530]

Just practice, practice, practice and when you think your good enough practice a little more. Have some other people look at the practice welds. Weld some tubing and then cut it apart to see how well you penitrated. Do some reading about the different processes for different types of metal and applications. I welded my first suspension and chassiss, but had been welding for many years before hand.

SAFETY is the biggest issue I have with guys welding up a car that have never really welded. It's not just their lives and equipment at stake. It's also the the other competitors and spectators that are at risk.

Just my $.02 good luck. :D

[bjuice]

I Agree with everything above...how i learned to weld was putting in rocker panels on a 68 chevy pickup..and replacing the doors..the mans welder i was using took my old doors and began to drill 3/8 holes in the door..about 50 of them..then he told me to weld up the holes....he let me ( on purpose) start on the 1st hole and i made the hole 4 to 5 times larger than what it should have been..anyone ever weld a light gauge metal with wrong heat range and wire speed can relate to this...then he showed me the proper way..heat,wire speed and also how to stay on top of my weld and work it...i got pretty darn good at welding up holes,patch panels and some roll cage work...

i will give some advise on here as well..i agree with the PRACTICE,PRACTICE..even the most experienced welders out here get a little rusty on their welding if they have had long spells in between pulling the trigger every day...so YES PRACTICE..

Next take the extra time and effort to properly Notch and fit your tubing..the tighter the tolerance on your notching means its much more forgiving on your welding...if you have a huge gap in between tube notches start over and re-notch...and chip away a little material at a time..you can always take more away but you cannot add back..learned this on floor pan installation years ago. 8)


the biggest mistake beginner ( novice welders ) find themselves is COLD WELDS....this is a weld that looks decent from the outter eye..but in reality it never SEATED into the metal..improper heat range and wire speed can cause this (very dangerous cause it looks like a good weld but no stronger then a tack weld in most cases).....also WITH A MIG welder PUSH the bead instead of pulling it...you can also Hear WHEN A WELD seats or Burns INTO THE METAL...UN-MISTAKEBLE SOUND...if its popping and carrying on stop..clean your surface, re-check your heat and wire speed..


Now Tig welding gets real fun......lol...

good luck...also i would be more concerned in getting the car laid out right more so than i would the welding at this point...so i say consult with the pro's on getting the car laid out like it should be ..unless you have a JIG and i still say consult with someone who knows their stuff..but looks like your gonna have to square the floor and build it from therewhich can be done and has been done many times...

a goofed up weld can be fixed little to no problems...you build a crooked car in every aspect..you will never get it to work as you would like...and possibly piss away a lot of time and money..

but that an individual call..

good luck any route you take my friend
and Merry Christmas

Brian

[hotrodharley]

everyone has gave you some good advice;;not much to add but if not sure of yourself for your first build then here is a ideal you may look at;;get everything fitted and squared up good.tack weld it real good.then see if you can find someone local that is a good welder and see if you can get them to come over and watch you do the welding.this way if you are doing something wrong they can stop you and show you the right way.sort of like teaching you as you do your own car...everyone on here i'm sure will agree with me..there isn't a better feeling then doing it yourself and when all done with car and someone says to you WHAT A NICE CAR YOU HAVE;;WHO DID IT?you can say I DID;and be proud of it.
IT DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER THEN DOING YOUR OWN BUILDS;

PS;;;after you do one then next one comes a little easyier and even more and before you know it you are helping out another first time builder;;it's a great life;;building hotrods and choppers;;nothing better

[inou2]

WOW! I appreciate the repsonses. Believe me, I take this stuff serious. I've been around cars and racing for a while (49 years old). The older I get, the more I want to do things myself. Most of my welding experiance is body panels and repairs. Cold welds are a big concern. Is there a way to check a weld, short of x-ray?

[bjuice]

there are several things that can indicate a cold well vs a good weld...
all a cold weld is ..is that the tubing being welded did not get enough heat transfer to properly bond ( fuse) the metal...it is just enough to lay the bead with a weak tack to the tubing...the bead will look ok to the untrained eye.

the dis-oloration of the metal is a Big indicator..i have heard some of the best tig welders in the world refer to the dis-coloration of the metal as a golden trout color..

there is a huge differnec in patch panel welding and chassis welding...

what i would do if i were in your shoes..is find someone who is an accomplished welder and let them show you the difference between a well seated weld and a cold weld...once you see it with the eye you will recognize it...also as i mentioned in my last post a good weld ( seated) with proper heat etc...will have a certian sound over a cold weld,,..you will also be able to see the metals melting and fusing together thru your helmet shield..get some scrap roll bar tubing and practice with it...i assure you that you will see the difference the more you play with it...also remmbre to push your gun.

there has to be a certain transfer of heat from the bead to the metal itself to fuse the metals properly....play with your heat ranges..


if your using a Mig then i am sure you know to stay with Mild Steel.

i would think the COLD WELDS is more than a common problem with DO-IT-YOURSELF projects....Most people are running around with Cold welds all over their car...

you can get lots of info on this but nothing will take the place of getting around someone that can demonstrate for you...and of course Pratice.

check out this site..look at the pictures of the improper fusion of metals.


http://www.weldingengineer.com/Discontinuities_.htm

Good luck,

Brian

[edvancedengines]

I'll agree. You can watch the weld puddle as it becomes molten metal and is looking like a little melted dent as you move your wire/rod the molten dent will also move as your filing it in fusion to the other metal it is getting fused with. If one piece is thinner, mostly concentrate your main heat toward the thicker piece and again watch the molten metal weld puddle.

If you can not see a puddle and see a light where you are welding you need a lighter shade lens to see better. You must be able to see that molten weld puddle in the welded metal pieces or have a really good feel by sound from years of experience.

Don't even think about using a Flux-Core instead of gas. What a mess.

Practice, practice and practise with the same exact kind and thickness of metals you will be welding. Take your welded practice pieces and try to destroy them by prying, bending, hammering, air hammering, and finally cut them apart where you welded to check depth of penetration.

IF you were able to separate the welded pieces by any destructive method prior to actually cutting, that weld will not work in a race car and is not a good strong weld.

I am a decent welder. People bring stuff to get it welded to here including trailer hitches on ther race trailers, frame sections, structural members, brckets, ladder bars, 4-links etc. I do a decent job. Still I am not factory trained nor certified and would be scared to weld up a roll cage. Maybe it is just me.

Ed

[Bubstr]

If your intent on doing it yourself. the best advice is don't mig chrome molly and the biggest thing to a good weld is slow and hot. If you welded sheet metal you know how easy it is to blow a hole. You want to flirt with this possibility all the time your welding. Warm it slow weld it slow and cool it slow. If you want to go faster you have to turn the heat up. like I say flirt with the hole. If you do that and have the right filler you have a head start. Practice, it's not a black art it's a skill.

[qawelder4u]

What kind of material will the cage be fabricated with? mild steel or chromoly? If mild steel, mig is ok tig is best. If its chromoly tig should be mandatory.









http://www.gillwelding.com/

[signsbyesa]

maybe this will help with your decision to let a pro handle it :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwWIUeaSdx8&feature=related

[bjuice]

maybe this will help with your decision to let a pro handle it :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwWIUeaSdx8&feature=related

LMAO..thats funny right there now....i would have been so embarrased i would have not got out of the car...lol... :D

[mcracecars]

a lot of guys try to save themselves a few bucks and try to weld things themselves that they should not. Welding looks easy to them, and figure anyone can do it, so they buy or borrow buddies 110 mig and attempt to mig a .134 wall cage in their car. A little silicon and paint around the weld, cover with roll bar padding and no one is the wiser.
I have seen many a scarey welding job both on street cars and race cars.
One guy up here, redid a rollbar to a cage in a 68 camaro, I swear you could knock it apart with a 5 lb sledge hammer.....

The problem most guys have, is that they really dont know what they are looking at when welding, what the puddle and bead should look like as you move, it is all about controlling the puddle, become one with the puddle, as a teacher told me once....
most guys tend to be afraid of blowing through the puddle, so they lower the heat and/or travel too fast, or just plain use a welder with not enough capacity, or the wrong wire, wrong gas pressure or gas... the list goes on.

2 summers ago a guy brings in a 12 bolt housing from his malibu, were the passenger side ladder bar brackets on the housing popped right off while he drove it on the street...., didnt break the bracket, just the weld popped off the housing.... it would have been like the camaro in the video in the other post but the driver side stayed on.
I told him to redo the drivers side also, when we rewelded on the brackets, since they were most likely ready to break too..

if someone wants to build or backhalf their own car, thats fine... all the power to them, but please take a welding coarse, and get it right, your life is on the line here, and also the guy in the next lane, and also the spectators on the sides... and also....
and learn to fit pipes also, ive seen gaps that your dog could move into and use as a den..... and this is from so called chassis shops...... man i could go on here of what ive seen over the years that guys actually pay money to someone to f*** up their cars.....

enough of my ratting... what do I know anyway.....

[signsbyesa]

hey bjuice, i don't think the guy wanted to get out either but
figured he can't sit there for ever, notice it took him a while to
get out ha ha ah :lol:

[SST4530]

This reminds me of the old movies when the high school kids would chain the cops to a telephone pole? LMAO!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[lmccoll]

About how much should it cost to have a welder to install a 10 point roll cage in a mid 70's Camaro if the fit up was already done?

[us7race]

This is a price list of a shop about an hour from me...

http://www.randrchassis.com/Services.aspx

[etbird]

Please, have a pro do your safety equipment. Your life may depend on it.

[edvancedengines]

This is a price list of a shop about an hour from me...

http://www.randrchassis.com/Services.aspx


Wow!

If there quality is any good, those prices are incredibly reasonable.

Ed

[artie727]

If you are not a very very good welder dont attempt to weld it yourself. Unless you are a good fabricator don't attempt to fabricate. The problem with tacking everything up yourself is that no two welders are the same. It may be clean enough for one or the gaps may be two large for the other. One important thing about mig welding, IT HAS POOR PENETRATING ABILITY. you really need to have a small gap between the two pieces you are welding together. With a real tight joint, unless your heat is really up there you won't have the penetration required for a good sound weld. Most mig welders don't weld anything much thicker than 1/8" thick. Been welding longer than I cared to. Leave it to the pros.

[slowmotion]

A few years ago I saw a '68 camaro go through the finish line at over 100mph sliding on the frame, The whole rearend came out about the 1000' mark. I'd save the money to have a professional do things before I'd take any chances.

[topgunracecars]

I BUILD RACE CARS FOR A LIVING . PLEASE REMEMBER SAFETY FIRST !!!
TIG WELDING IS THE BEST. NEVER TRY TO SAVE MONEY WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR LIFE AND OTHERS. COLD WELDS KILL PEOPLE.
HAVE A WELDER THATS GOOD CHECK YOUR WORK ON SCRAP FIRST.
GOOD LUCK & BE SAFE

[jmech]

This is a molly car that i built myself after practicing about 40 hours with my tig. I have about 200 hours into design, fabrication and welding. Its not rocket science. It takes tons of patiance, a lot of research, a steady hand and good eye sight. If you can't see good it doesn't matter how talented you are you can't weld. I say practice, do some research, show someone with excperiance your welding and go for it.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s274/jeffwiebe/IMG_0134.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s274/jeffwiebe/IMG_0093.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s274/jeffwiebe/chevelle013.jpg

[racer427]

Don't play with saftey, Let a professional help. That's what they get paid for. You must know your limitation when your life is on the line . Don't foget , that there is other people counting on safe cars. The car in the other lane counts on you not crossing over into him/her.