looking for advice building large cubic inch sbc

[gearhead37683]

i am thinking of building a large cubic inch sbc,and i was wondering if anyone here has built one out of a 400 sbc block? i dont want to have to buy a aftermarket block because of lack of funds. what is the largest i can build using the 400 block,and what needs to be done it, i am looking for a engine that can be streetable or take it to the strip,i would like a 427 sbc is that possible with a 400 block? if so what do i need to do it?i would appreciate any advice,i know someone here has built a large cubic inch sbc
thanks in advance

[topsportsman1]

A little info here.You can make your own decision,but my opinion you might not like.

http://forums.racingjunk.com/viewtopic.php?t=3624&highlight=400

[rabiddawg]

I think you can go up to .060 overbore on a 400 block max.
I did mine .030 over and still got enough material on the walls.
my total cubic inches came out to 406.
you can also add longer rods to improve the upper end performance.
400s are really torque monsters.
heres mine:

http://webpages.charter.net/harrycoon/100_0261%20(Medium).JPG

[gearhead37683]

thanks for the input, i had one 406 already and i loved it, it made so much torque it was a beast on the street, i may just build another 406,
i like the idea of the very large cubic inch sbc, but i dont have the cash to build one using a aftermarket block, so i am wondering what would be the largest i can build using a gm block,and what size crank do i need to use with it to achieve max cubic inches, because i have heard from a lot of people that the 400 blocks are prone to cracking and busting around the 600-650 hp range
thanks for any advice

[mytmouz]

I have a 4 inch stroke crank in mine.

[gearhead37683]

what size bore do you have?and what does it come out to be with the 4 inch stroke crank? also what size rods and pistons are you using with that combo?and does it work well?
thanks

[mytmouz]

Standardbore. Comes out to 428 cubes. .030 would be 434 cubes. I'm using 6 inch rods. Works prety well for me...

[kickin472]

My builder made me a 442ci couple years ago out of a 400 block. The block was filled, strapped, and never had a problem with 780 hp. I found a talldeck rocket block for $500 and made a 472 sb2.2 headed smallblock alot stronger no fill in the block, splayed, and it was like night and day for the power difference.

the 442ci is a 4.188 with a 4" swing, grinding is a must on the pan rails

Anthony

[gearhead37683]

thanks for all of the advice,this winter i may just go for it and see what i can come up with. my only concern using the stock block is i dont want to fill it because i would like it to be streetable
thanks

[davebat]

I have 2 I'm building now, looking into de-stroking 1 of them. They are both 2 bolt main, having splayed 4 bolt mains installed, suppose to be better than stock 4 bolt, PLUS everyone wants a mint for the 4 bolts, 2 bolts are readily availible and inexpensive.
We are limited to 406 (race e-mod div.), so when I need to bore more than .30, looking at the de-stroker as an alternative to keeping my blocks. Having them jacketed and steam holes plugged.
ANYONE RUN A DE-STOKED 400?

[edvancedengines]

As far as I am concerned 3.875 is the practicle limit. 4.00 is just too much and too much hassel. Doing the 6 inch rod and 4 inch stroke makes the piston compression ht to be too short which also makes a real short ring stack.

Ed

[davebat]

Oh and rabidawg, you need a left nut? Have 1 to trade for that engine.....SWEET!

[gearhead37683]

ED,
thanks for your input. if i was to go with a .030 bore on the 400 and use a 3.875 stroke crank with 6 inch rods what cubic inch motor would i have.i really want a engine that will be streetable as well as run on the strip.so thanks to everyone that has responded so far,and i hope to hear more wonderful opinions and ideals from you seasoned veterns that know engine building
thanks

[davebat]

420.3 CI, this is based on 4.155 bore and the stroke of 3.875, the rod length does not effect the CI, but does allow for the use of cheaper gas as pistons stay at top dead center longer.
Your chambers also will effect the CI

[gearhead37683]

thanks for the info davebat i appreciate all the help i can get on this subject,i have never built a large cubic inch sbc before
also will the block need any clearancing for that 3.875 stroke crank? also what would be the most cost affective crank to go with i would at least like to get a good name brand i can trust like eagle, any ideas what i would be looking to pay for a good 3.875 crank for the 400
thanks for the help

[davebat]

Don't know about clearance. The callies compstar is a good inexpensive crank. Just looking them up at competition Products site

[davebat]

Just ordered the 3.625 stroke compstar crank myself. Wish me luck!

[gearhead37683]

i hope that crank works well for you

[Pwmax]

My advice, first off, listen to what Ed said, if you use a 400 block. With that said, I would use a Dart 9.325 spread pan rain, raised cam block, and build a 434, or 440 or, with a 4inch crank, or use a 4.125 crank for 447 inches, or 454 inches with the 4.185 bore. This block eliminates all the negatives, to a stroker crank in a stock 9 inch block. Way easier to clearance the pan rails area, just needs a litte touch up for the rod bolts, the cam is up out of the way, and, get the BBC cam journal block while your at it, that eliminates the issue of cam to rod interfearance, and the extra deck height, allows for a 6.2 or 6.250 rod, whith a good ring stack on the piston. Plus, in my opinion, stock 400 blocks are junk. Unless you fill them to the bottom of the water pump holes, plug the big deck holes, put billet caps on all 5 mains, they are an eggshell for big power. For a mild street or bracket engine, they work fine, using the stock stroke, and 5.7 length rods, they can be brutal street/strip engines, but, definately have their limits

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

[edvancedengines]

Ok' I wish you luck.

Just ordered the 3.625 stroke compstar crank myself. Wish me luck!

Why in the world ?

You want big cube SB and buy a smaller than factory crank?

Ed

[Tod74]

Ok' I wish you luck.

Just ordered the 3.625 stroke compstar crank myself. Wish me luck!

Why in the world ?

You want big cube SB and buy a smaller than factory crank?

Ed

I don't think the guy that ordered the small crank was the guy who wanted the big cubic inch motor.

[hink]

My advice, first off, listen to what Ed said, if you use a 400 block. With that said, I would use a Dart 9.325 spread pan rain, raised cam block, and build a 434, or 440 or, with a 4inch crank, or use a 4.125 crank for 447 inches, or 454 inches with the 4.185 bore. This block eliminates all the negatives, to a stroker crank in a stock 9 inch block. Way easier to clearance the pan rails area, just needs a litte touch up for the rod bolts, the cam is up out of the way, and, get the BBC cam journal block while your at it, that eliminates the issue of cam to rod interfearance, and the extra deck height, allows for a 6.2 or 6.250 rod, whith a good ring stack on the piston. Plus, in my opinion, stock 400 blocks are junk. Unless you fill them to the bottom of the water pump holes, plug the big deck holes, put billet caps on all 5 mains, they are an eggshell for big power. For a mild street or bracket engine, they work fine, using the stock stroke, and 5.7 length rods, they can be brutal street/strip engines, but, definately have their limits

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

My thoughts as well as we have seen to many 400 blocks scraped after a hard season of running due to cracking.

And going with a spread pan rail and raised cam tunnel allows you to go to a BBC cam tunnel or 50MM roller cam bearings, Using those small base circle cam allows for cam twist and more radical valve action over a bigger base circle cams which allow for smoother valve action.

One other point is the better blocks have proven to make much better horse power of a OEM blocks as find cam tunnel placement and lifter bore placement out up to .025 and if you have lifter bores off up to .025 and if your using a roller cam, Roller cams and roller lifters work on exact center lines and if a lifter bore is off from intake to exhaust it changes the seat timing events a ton now times that by 16 lifters.

Now add to the equation cam tunnel placement as we have seen them off up to .014 from blue print.

Joe Sherman went form a 400 block to a Dart or World block with the same components and saw a 40 horse gain over using a stock block.

After what we have seen over the years using a 4 inch stroke crank really requires a good soild foundation.

It all biols down to what you can really afford.

At our shop if a customer wanted to build this type of engine and wanted to use a stock block we would just pass on that job as I would not feel comfortable using a stock block for that much cubic inch.

[Racefab57]

I built a 421sbc from a world products motown block!!! 3.875 crank fell into place,NO GRINDING. EAGLE makes a good crank for 499.99,my cost, retail for 599.99 its a good piece, especially if street car, Ive raced it to 8000,all season NO PROBLEMS now I want to build a 472!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good luck try it its fun, get good advice fromm good people and have fun !!! David.

[edvancedengines]

That is the way to do it. When using the stock ht cam I think the best all around stroker combo is revolving around the 3.875 stroke. Anything bigger is asking for more fitment issues and more block cutting and camshaft clearance problems etc. I did one 4 inch stroke in a stock blcok at 440 cu in several years ago and I would not do it again, unless someone paid me a ton of money.

Ed

[davebat]

I am not looking for a big CI SB. What I intend is (now that I've got me 406 with 3.75 stroke crank) using the 3.625 stroke crank when it comes time to freshen my 400 block(s) and they would be above the 406 we are restricted to. I'm spending an absolute mint on block machine work and don't want to have to get a new block everytime I need a re-build. But I am going to save for a motown cast block when it comes time to replace one of the 400s I have now.
As for GM 400s being junk, I've heard quite a bit that puts that argument on pause, for me at least. And I've decided not to fill my blocks, there are alot of downsides to that for oval track racing. I am, however, having the steam jackets blocked, on the advice of a machine shop doing some of my work.
I'm more than a little excited to see how the 393 does compared with the 406!

[us7race]

I think it will do well. I built my 379ci using a 3.50 stroke crank 6" rods in a factory 2-bolt block and ran better than alot of 406's that i have seen in my area. But now I am going to build a 408 this winter most likely..need more Cubic inches for the heads I have..

[zipper06]

[quote=Pwmax]My advice, first off, listen to what Ed said, if you use a 400 block. With that said, I would use a Dart 9.325 spread pan rain, raised cam block, and build a 434, or 440 or, with a 4inch crank, or use a 4.125 crank for 447 inches, or 454 inches with the 4.185 bore. This block eliminates all the negatives, to a stroker crank in a stock 9 inch block. Way easier to clearance the pan rails area, just needs a litte touch up for the rod bolts, the cam is up out of the way, and, get the BBC cam journal block while your at it, that eliminates the issue of cam to rod interfearance, and the extra deck height, allows for a 6.2 or 6.250 rod, whith a good ring stack on the piston. Plus, in my opinion, stock 400 blocks are junk. Unless you fill them to the bottom of the water pump holes, plug the big deck holes, put billet caps on all 5 mains, they are an eggshell for big power. For a mild street or bracket engine, they work fine, using the stock stroke, and 5.7 length rods, they can be brutal street/strip engines, but, definately have their limits

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

My thoughts as well as we have seen to many 400 blocks scraped after a hard season of running due to cracking.

And going with a spread pan rail and raised cam tunnel allows you to go to a BBC cam tunnel or 50MM roller cam bearings, Using those small base circle cam allows for cam twist and more radical valve action over a bigger base circle cams which allow for smoother valve action.

One other point is the better blocks have proven to make much better horse power of a OEM blocks as find cam tunnel placement and lifter bore placement out up to .025 and if you have lifter bores off up to .025 and if your using a roller cam, Roller cams and roller lifters work on exact center lines and if a lifter bore is off from intake to exhaust it changes the seat timing events a ton now times that by 16 lifters.

Now add to the equation cam tunnel placement as we have seen them off up to .014 from blue print.

Joe Sherman went form a 400 block to a Dart or World block with the same components and saw a 40 horse gain over using a stock block.

After what we have seen over the years using a 4 inch stroke crank really requires a good soild foundation.

It all biols down to what you can really afford.

At our shop if a customer wanted to build this type of engine and wanted to use a stock block we would just pass on that job as I would not feel comfortable using a stock block for that much cubic inch.[/quot

First of all i donot want to start a pissing contest on this subject.

(QUOTE)

Carl Please educate me on this one, (first i appreciate your opinion), but i donot agree with a lot of things you said.

As far as the lifter bores being off .025, that's not a problem lineral, the cam lobes are 1/2" to 5/8" wide the lifter rollers are 5/16" wide with 1/16" radius, not a problem. If the lifter bores are off too the c/l of the blk. .025 that would amount to .001 to .004 difference in lift per lifter, totally ajustable. I personally have a 377" motor with 2 bolt mains, that runs 5.15 in a 1850lb dragster without driver, it runs 6.52 in a 3250lb car. we also have 2 other motors that are 434" 2 blt. motors 1 runs 4.88 in the same dragster and the other runs 5.80's in a door car @2800lbs. My 377" motor when we installed it in the dragster would not hold water. we found it to have a 4" crack seperating the deck from the passenger side of the blk. We then ran it about a doz. passes dry, even ran it at super Chevy where we broke out with a 5.13 to a 5.15 dial. I then pulled it out of the Dragster and without even removing the heads v'ed out the crack and tig welded it with nirod, it no longer leaks and has about 100 passes on it and it still runs today. Bullit engines in Denver builds 900 HP 406's every day with 18* heads and there's only 10 to 25 HP between the dart or motown blks. and th stock 400 blks. If i had the option i would buy a doz. stock blks. Not only that but we donot put 4 blt. splayed caps or any of the other expensive mods to the blk, but we only run 2 blt blks and use a main cap girdle and run 7500RPM all day long, we just re'ups the engine in the dragster after 200 plus passes, the bearings looked brand new, but now granted it only runs 4.80's @138mph, but i think that's o'k with a wet sump and no vacuum pump.
one thing i should add is that we sonic test the blks before boring them and put the bores in the center for the most meat in the bores.

Please don't be pissed, but that's what we do and it works for us.

JMO,

Zip.

[edvancedengines]

Zip,
Tell me where to get the main cap girdle for the 400 2 bolt caps?

I have two here now that I need them for. Also will adding the girdle negatively affect the align hone?

Ed

[zipper06]

Zip,
Tell me where to get the main cap girdle for the 400 2 bolt caps?

I have two here now that I need them for. Also will adding the girdle negatively affect the align hone?

Ed

It shouldn't affect the line hone no more than using studs do, although we line hone with them in place and torqued down.
I can help you on where to find them, but i donot use the 5140 studs that come with them, i use a better grade stud.

You have a PM,

Zip.

[hink]

[quote=Pwmax]My advice, first off, listen to what Ed said, if you use a 400 block. With that said, I would use a Dart 9.325 spread pan rain, raised cam block, and build a 434, or 440 or, with a 4inch crank, or use a 4.125 crank for 447 inches, or 454 inches with the 4.185 bore. This block eliminates all the negatives, to a stroker crank in a stock 9 inch block. Way easier to clearance the pan rails area, just needs a litte touch up for the rod bolts, the cam is up out of the way, and, get the BBC cam journal block while your at it, that eliminates the issue of cam to rod interfearance, and the extra deck height, allows for a 6.2 or 6.250 rod, whith a good ring stack on the piston. Plus, in my opinion, stock 400 blocks are junk. Unless you fill them to the bottom of the water pump holes, plug the big deck holes, put billet caps on all 5 mains, they are an eggshell for big power. For a mild street or bracket engine, they work fine, using the stock stroke, and 5.7 length rods, they can be brutal street/strip engines, but, definately have their limits

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

My thoughts as well as we have seen to many 400 blocks scraped after a hard season of running due to cracking.

And going with a spread pan rail and raised cam tunnel allows you to go to a BBC cam tunnel or 50MM roller cam bearings, Using those small base circle cam allows for cam twist and more radical valve action over a bigger base circle cams which allow for smoother valve action.

One other point is the better blocks have proven to make much better horse power of a OEM blocks as find cam tunnel placement and lifter bore placement out up to .025 and if you have lifter bores off up to .025 and if your using a roller cam, Roller cams and roller lifters work on exact center lines and if a lifter bore is off from intake to exhaust it changes the seat timing events a ton now times that by 16 lifters.

Now add to the equation cam tunnel placement as we have seen them off up to .014 from blue print.

Joe Sherman went form a 400 block to a Dart or World block with the same components and saw a 40 horse gain over using a stock block.

After what we have seen over the years using a 4 inch stroke crank really requires a good soild foundation.

It all biols down to what you can really afford.

At our shop if a customer wanted to build this type of engine and wanted to use a stock block we would just pass on that job as I would not feel comfortable using a stock block for that much cubic inch.[/quot

First of all i donot want to start a pissing contest on this subject.

(QUOTE)

Carl Please educate me on this one, (first i appreciate your opinion), but i donot agree with a lot of things you said.

As far as the lifter bores being off .025, that's not a problem lineral, the cam lobes are 1/2" to 5/8" wide the lifter rollers are 5/16" wide with 1/16" radius, not a problem. If the lifter bores are off too the c/l of the blk. .025 that would amount to .001 to .004 difference in lift per lifter, totally ajustable. I personally have a 377" motor with 2 bolt mains, that runs 5.15 in a 1850lb dragster without driver, it runs 6.52 in a 3250lb car. we also have 2 other motors that are 434" 2 blt. motors 1 runs 4.88 in the same dragster and the other runs 5.80's in a door car @2800lbs. My 377" motor when we installed it in the dragster would not hold water. we found it to have a 4" crack seperating the deck from the passenger side of the blk. We then ran it about a doz. passes dry, even ran it at super Chevy where we broke out with a 5.13 to a 5.15 dial. I then pulled it out of the Dragster and without even removing the heads v'ed out the crack and tig welded it with nirod, it no longer leaks and has about 100 passes on it and it still runs today. Bullit engines in Denver builds 900 HP 406's every day with 18* heads and there's only 10 to 25 HP between the dart or motown blks. and th stock 400 blks. If i had the option i would buy a doz. stock blks. Not only that but we donot put 4 blt. splayed caps or any of the other expensive mods to the blk, but we only run 2 blt blks and use a main cap girdle and run 7500RPM all day long, we just re'ups the engine in the dragster after 200 plus passes, the bearings looked brand new, but now granted it only runs 4.80's @138mph, but i think that's o'k with a wet sump and no vacuum pump.
one thing i should add is that we sonic test the blks before boring them and put the bores in the center for the most meat in the bores.

Please don't be pissed, but that's what we do and it works for us.

JMO,

Zip.

Now to compare apples to apples here do you build performance engines for a living and have a complete machine shop to do the work???

Now from what I have seen if a lifter bore is off .025 from intake to a exhaust not front to rear it does change the seat timing a lot depending on the direction and if its picking up onthe ramp earlier its going to leave earlier and if its in the other direction it will pick up later and leave later.

And we feel at our shop that if the lifter bores are off up to .025 it does change things alot.

Now if you take a roller lifter and its starting up on the ramp and move the lifter .025 it sure going to be more then .001 to .004 differance depending on how aggressive the ramp is.

And moving cylinders from intake to exhaust is not recomended as that changes the center line of the rod a piston compared to center line of the crank, Now the piston is at a different height in the cylinder both sides of the stroke.

And using splayed caps on a block is much better as with splayed caps its tying in the pan rails into the webbing making for a much stronger peice.

I have seen most guys that don't like splayed caps don't have the ability
to put them on like cutting the registers, line boring, line honing ETC.

I really hope your are kidding about lifter bores that off .025 only changes things about .001 to .004 and 2 bolt caps are stronger then a splayed caps and moving cylinders HMMM What type of machine shop do you guys run ( IF ANY)

[zipper06]

[quote=Pwmax]My advice, first off, listen to what Ed said, if you use a 400 block. With that said, I would use a Dart 9.325 spread pan rain, raised cam block, and build a 434, or 440 or, with a 4inch crank, or use a 4.125 crank for 447 inches, or 454 inches with the 4.185 bore. This block eliminates all the negatives, to a stroker crank in a stock 9 inch block. Way easier to clearance the pan rails area, just needs a litte touch up for the rod bolts, the cam is up out of the way, and, get the BBC cam journal block while your at it, that eliminates the issue of cam to rod interfearance, and the extra deck height, allows for a 6.2 or 6.250 rod, whith a good ring stack on the piston. Plus, in my opinion, stock 400 blocks are junk. Unless you fill them to the bottom of the water pump holes, plug the big deck holes, put billet caps on all 5 mains, they are an eggshell for big power. For a mild street or bracket engine, they work fine, using the stock stroke, and 5.7 length rods, they can be brutal street/strip engines, but, definately have their limits

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

My thoughts as well as we have seen to many 400 blocks scraped after a hard season of running due to cracking.

And going with a spread pan rail and raised cam tunnel allows you to go to a BBC cam tunnel or 50MM roller cam bearings, Using those small base circle cam allows for cam twist and more radical valve action over a bigger base circle cams which allow for smoother valve action.

One other point is the better blocks have proven to make much better horse power of a OEM blocks as find cam tunnel placement and lifter bore placement out up to .025 and if you have lifter bores off up to .025 and if your using a roller cam, Roller cams and roller lifters work on exact center lines and if a lifter bore is off from intake to exhaust it changes the seat timing events a ton now times that by 16 lifters.

Now add to the equation cam tunnel placement as we have seen them off up to .014 from blue print.

Joe Sherman went form a 400 block to a Dart or World block with the same components and saw a 40 horse gain over using a stock block.

After what we have seen over the years using a 4 inch stroke crank really requires a good soild foundation.

It all biols down to what you can really afford.

At our shop if a customer wanted to build this type of engine and wanted to use a stock block we would just pass on that job as I would not feel comfortable using a stock block for that much cubic inch.[/quot

First of all i donot want to start a pissing contest on this subject.

(QUOTE)

Carl Please educate me on this one, (first i appreciate your opinion), but i donot agree with a lot of things you said.

As far as the lifter bores being off .025, that's not a problem lineral, the cam lobes are 1/2" to 5/8" wide the lifter rollers are 5/16" wide with 1/16" radius, not a problem. If the lifter bores are off too the c/l of the blk. .025 that would amount to .001 to .004 difference in lift per lifter, totally ajustable. I personally have a 377" motor with 2 bolt mains, that runs 5.15 in a 1850lb dragster without driver, it runs 6.52 in a 3250lb car. we also have 2 other motors that are 434" 2 blt. motors 1 runs 4.88 in the same dragster and the other runs 5.80's in a door car @2800lbs. My 377" motor when we installed it in the dragster would not hold water. we found it to have a 4" crack seperating the deck from the passenger side of the blk. We then ran it about a doz. passes dry, even ran it at super Chevy where we broke out with a 5.13 to a 5.15 dial. I then pulled it out of the Dragster and without even removing the heads v'ed out the crack and tig welded it with nirod, it no longer leaks and has about 100 passes on it and it still runs today. Bullit engines in Denver builds 900 HP 406's every day with 18* heads and there's only 10 to 25 HP between the dart or motown blks. and th stock 400 blks. If i had the option i would buy a doz. stock blks. Not only that but we donot put 4 blt. splayed caps or any of the other expensive mods to the blk, but we only run 2 blt blks and use a main cap girdle and run 7500RPM all day long, we just re'ups the engine in the dragster after 200 plus passes, the bearings looked brand new, but now granted it only runs 4.80's @138mph, but i think that's o'k with a wet sump and no vacuum pump.
one thing i should add is that we sonic test the blks before boring them and put the bores in the center for the most meat in the bores.

Please don't be pissed, but that's what we do and it works for us.

JMO,

Zip.

Now to compare apples to apples here do you build performance engines for a living and have a complete machine shop to do the work???

Now from what I have seen if a lifter bore is off .025 from intake to a exhaust not front to rear it does change the seat timing a lot depending on the direction and if its picking up onthe ramp earlier its going to leave earlier and if its in the other direction it will pick up later and leave later.

And we feel at our shop that if the lifter bores are off up to .025 it does change things alot.

Now if you take a roller lifter and its starting up on the ramp and move the lifter .025 it sure going to be more then .001 to .004 differance depending on how aggressive the ramp is.

And moving cylinders from intake to exhaust is not recomended as that changes the center line of the rod a piston compared to center line of the crank, Now the piston is at a different height in the cylinder both sides of the stroke.

And using splayed caps on a block is much better as with splayed caps its tying in the pan rails into the webbing making for a much stronger peice.

I have seen most guys that don't like splayed caps don't have the ability
to put them on like cutting the registers, line boring, line honing ETC.

I really hope your are kidding about lifter bores that off .025 only changes things about .001 to .004 and 2 bolt caps are stronger then a splayed caps and moving cylinders HMMM What type of machine shop do you guys run ( IF ANY)

You are right, most people donot have a clue about machining or what's involved, but i'm not that person. I donot build engines for a living. I've been a machinest for nearly 50 yrs. and for the last 10yrs. i have worked at (http://btdinc.org/index.html) as a programmer, operator,and teacher. We have 3 20X40 CNC 4 axis fadals, CNC lathes, 3 wire EDM's a hole popper, 3, EDM sinker machines, in all about 2 million dollars in equipment, all of which i programm and run.
But i can understand where you are comming from, about useing stock blks. because you have to stand behind your engines, where i donot. i guess if i were building engines for a living i too would insist on an after market block.
I do know that we are getting over 700 HP, from stock blocks with .842 lifters. We did work with Bullit cams for about 3 yrs. to develope a cam that would work for us in the 434's.

Again i was only stating what works for us, not trying to start an argument, i appolagise if i pissed you off,

Zip.

[hink]

Zipper

I received a couple of emails about your post today and you say a lifter bore off .025 does not change much, Say you degree your cam in center line method and you were able to move the lifter bore .025 and I am sure that on a roller cam you would see quite a change in degrees when you checked it again.

Like I have said there is more of a gain correcting lifter bores on a roller cam then a flat tappet cam.

[zipper06]

Zipper

I received a couple of emails about your post today and you say a lifter bore off .025 does not change much, Say you degree your cam in center line method and you were able to move the lifter bore .025 and I am sure that on a roller cam you would see quite a change in degrees when you checked it again.

Like I have said there is more of a gain correcting lifter bores on a roller cam then a flat tappet cam.

I totally agree with that, due to the aggressive ramp speed of a roller cam. I would like to go to .904's but can't see wasting the time on a stock block even though i have the equipment and knowledge to do so. I don't know what the HP gain would be by centering the lifter bores. In the 5 different 434" engine between me and my friend Jeff Russell we do have 2 Dart little "M" blks running (all injected alcohol) and donot see a lot of difference in performance, but when re-upping the engines there is more main cap walk with the stock block. all the stock blocks are hard blocked to the bottom of the water pump inlet holes, for better ring seal, which is not necessary to do on the Darts.

Zip.

[hink]

Zipper

I received a couple of emails about your post today and you say a lifter bore off .025 does not change much, Say you degree your cam in center line method and you were able to move the lifter bore .025 and I am sure that on a roller cam you would see quite a change in degrees when you checked it again.

Like I have said there is more of a gain correcting lifter bores on a roller cam then a flat tappet cam.

I totally agree with that, due to the aggressive ramp speed of a roller cam. I would like to go to .904's but can't see wasting the time on a stock block even though i have the equipment and knowledge to do so. I don't know what the HP gain would be by centering the lifter bores. In the 5 different 434" engine between me and my friend Jeff Russell we do have 2 Dart little "M" blks running (all injected alcohol) and donot see a lot of difference in performance, but when re-upping the engines there is more main cap walk with the stock block. all the stock blocks are hard blocked to the bottom of the water pump inlet holes, for better ring seal, which is not necessary to do on the Darts.

Zip.

What type of equipment do you have for blue print boring the cam tunnels and lifter bore work and what cylinder honing equipment do you guys use?? And the name of your shop.

We use the Jesel .904's as they use a bigger wheel on those lfiters.

[zipper06]

I donnot have the equipment to B/P the cam tunnels, the only thing i could do is open up the lifter bores, and bore the blocks on our 4 axis Fadals. I usually use BB&T in Memphis to mag., line bore and hone the blocks,or Blalocks in Darma Ms, where he has a flow bench and a dyno.
I also would like to use the .904's for the larger rollers, but have not done so as of yet.
The shop i work in is primarily a Plastics injection mold building shop, plus some production machining. But i have full use of any equipment that i may want to use. We are not setup to do automative engine machining and therefore everything that i do requires a new setup i have no fixtures. We are certified ISO 9001-2000 high end machine shop Not automotive, but for aircraft and the medical industry. If you get a hip joint replacement we may have made the joint or atleast the tools required to install it. If you can draw it we can make it, if you have it and it's not drawn we can CMM it and reverse engineer it.
Our website is www.btdinc.org/ where i have worked for 10 yrs, and have been programming CNC equipment since 1975, before moving to the deep south i had a shop out west with CNC equipment doing mostly aircraft work. I've never worked in an automotive maching shop.

Zip.

[zipper06]

Zipper

I received a couple of emails about your post today and you say a lifter bore off .025 does not change much, Say you degree your cam in center line method and you were able to move the lifter bore .025 and I am sure that on a roller cam you would see quite a change in degrees when you checked it again.

Like I have said there is more of a gain correcting lifter bores on a roller cam then a flat tappet cam.

I totally agree with that, due to the aggressive ramp speed of a roller cam. I would like to go to .904's but can't see wasting the time on a stock block even though i have the equipment and knowledge to do so. I don't know what the HP gain would be by centering the lifter bores. In the 5 different 434" engine between me and my friend Jeff Russell we do have 2 Dart little "M" blks running (all injected alcohol) and donot see a lot of difference in performance, but when re-upping the engines there is more main cap walk with the stock block. all the stock blocks are hard blocked to the bottom of the water pump inlet holes, for better ring seal, which is not necessary to do on the Darts.

Zip.

What type of equipment do you have for blue print boring the cam tunnels and lifter bore work and what cylinder honing equipment do you guys use?? And the name of your shop.

We use the Jesel .904's as they use a bigger wheel on those lfiters.

let's stop all this argument,

I donot have the speciality equipment that you have to build engines. What i have is the ability to build engines that for the most part last a whole season and perform better than most, Example 1 dragster runs 5.16 with my 377" motor, 1 dragster runs 4.94 with a 434" motor, the very ugly 1963 dodge runs 5.80's with a 434" motor. all of the motors are on 23 degree track 1 heads, no full CNC porting, no nitrous, but alcohol injected. theses are big blk times for a lot of people. 2 of these are stock 2 bolt main blocks, 1 has over 200 runs on it. I am not a professional builder and do not make any money on the engines i build, i only build for friends and myself. I have a video of all these runs and as soon as i can learn to change them from 8MM to cd-r i wil post them for the none believers.
I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain by the statements that i have made.
I know i can build 900 plus HP with 18 degree heads but i haven't been there yet. I'm building a 434" motor with Brodix 10's that i think will have about 850HP, but the video is worth a thousand words, and we will see what happens with the new motor.
Bottom line let's be friends and help one another rather than bash one another, i know you know what you are doing and i only ask respect for what i know and what i am doing.

Your friend

Zip.

[hink]

I donnot have the equipment to B/P the cam tunnels, the only thing i could do is open up the lifter bores, and bore the blocks on our 4 axis Fadals. I usually use BB&T in Memphis to mag., line bore and hone the blocks,or Blalocks in Darma Ms, where he has a flow bench and a dyno.
I also would like to use the .904's for the larger rollers, but have not done so as of yet.
The shop i work in is primarily a Plastics injection mold building shop, plus some production machining. But i have full use of any equipment that i may want to use. We are not setup to do automative engine machining and therefore everything that i do requires a new setup i have no fixtures. We are certified ISO 9001-2000 high end machine shop Not automotive, but for aircraft and the medical industry. If you get a hip joint replacement we may have made the joint or atleast the tools required to install it. If you can draw it we can make it, if you have it and it's not drawn we can CMM it and reverse engineer it.
Our website is www.btdinc.org/ where i have worked for 10 yrs, and have been programming CNC equipment since 1975, before moving to the deep south i had a shop out west with CNC equipment doing mostly aircraft work. I've never worked in an automotive maching shop.

Zip.

Zipper
If you go with the bigger wheel roller lifter let your cam grinder know what size wheel you are using as the bigger wheel pick up on the opening ramp earlier and leaves later changing you seat timing events and makes for more valve acceleration.

Carl

[scot9055]

The very best advice I can give you is to WAIT don't build your engine until you can put in the right parts. I have done this in the past and it just costs us more money in the long run because if it brakes its a waste if you later decide to build one out of "good parts" your old engine is still of no use and you will have to buy the stuff twice. But this is just my 2 cents, because my biggest problem has always been when I wanted something I wanted it right then!! good luck

[us7race]

Zipper06 you have a PM.. :)

[pipes434sbc]

good luck with whatever you decide gearhead,just so you know,I have a sollid roller 434,GM 4bolt block,deck plugs & cement.Run it on street like crazy,cleans up around town,never had a problem.Still I have to say,these are some of the smartest guys I have ever come across,& if I did it again,aftermarket block for sure.I did ALLOT of grinding & clearencing on pan rails.I also ran a .900 base circle cam,but it was only because I allready ordered it.when i received the kit from Eagle it all fit so well I could have got away with stock size.Still that is allot of gold in there,so,first teardown Dart block for sure.In the meantime,I still pound it with confidence.Would I spray it??Not a chance with GM block. already in 600-650hp range,as high as I would safely go.