ProComp Heads Update,

[zipper06]

Ed and Curtis, you're gonna love this :lol:

Remember in the first post that i wouldn't sell a set of procomp heads to the person that had a 144 b&m blower on his 355, and was going up to 383"? (he bought them else where)
He called me last thursday and said he got it running, Sunday morning about 9:00am he calls me in a panic, said he's 1 mile from the house and got on it one time, went up to 5500 and the engine shut down. It would not restart :shock: He pulls a couple plugs and the tips are collasped and the engine turns over like it has no compression, my answer is that it probably doesn't.
He trailers it back home and he's got water/milk in the oil. He calls me later sunday and saids that he has the engine out of the car and the heads off, there's only 8 pistons busted, it pulled off 2 to 3"'s of the top of all pistons above the top ring. He pulls the pan and finds that there is JB weld along the inside of the block in spots where the local race engine builder cleared the rods too much (not always necessary with Eagle H beams) I then started asking questions about the rest of the assembly. It turns out the the short blk. builder recommended Mahle -16cc coated pistons, over $700.00. O'h and he put a new 871 blower on the engine (8lbs boost). I tell him his first mistake is the Mahle pistons and ask him to measure the end gap on the top ring and the piston to wall clearance. It's .028 on the ring and .004 on the piston Also only 1/4" of land between the top of the piston and the top ring, not enough alum there. O'k on the ring but not enough in my opinion on the pistons. O'h forgot it also bent most the valves, they donot like chewing up alum chunks.
Monday he takes it back to the engine builder. Today he calls me back, and the engine builder tells him there's nothing wrong about the pistons and he should have bought 76 CC heads instead of 64 CC heads and it would have worked just fine. Now the engine builder wants him to buy another set of heads and the same pistons.
This is where i come into the rebuild, he can't afford this. I had told him earlier that the pistons were totally wrong for his application, he needs about 3/8" land there and blower pistons not street pistons. So i tell him to call Tom at Arias and give him the imfo. that he gave me and see what they recommended.
He called me back a 1/2 hr. later and told me that Tom laughed at his application and there should be about .400 on the top land and his heads are just fine with the right pistons, which Arias will build for $110.00 with rings,pins,and buttons, but they have to bill them to me because i have an account with them. (no i did not call Arias first)
Bottom line he's out over $7,000.00 and can only use the crank (which now needs polishing), the rods and heads maybe!! because it beat up the heads around the seats and may have damaged the seats.
Ask me again should i have sold those heads to him? (NOT). Because some of this could have come back to me.
I've built lots of blower mtrs and a few nitrous mtrs. and as it has been said here they are different animals and have to be built accordingly.

Zip.

[edvancedengines]

Well Zip,
I appreciate you posting this becuase it shows bad things do happen.

I get no pleasure from reading about the misfortues of anyone. I hate it when a customer that could have used me uses another builder and it croaks. It happens at times. I still hate hearoing about anyone's bad situations.

I do my very best to see that it does not happen with my customers and so far I guess I am lucky.

This is a shame. I hate it for the guy. It is another example though that just becuase it says race car engine builder on the door does not make it so.

Ed

[zipper06]

Ed this was all after the fact, he had already had the short blk built, in fact before a mutual friend introduced us, before he wanted to buy the heads. He had told the engine builder where he wanted to be at and with what he was planning to do. Had i any input on the short blk. he wouldn't be in the situation that's he's now in. i hate too see something like this happen, but now i'm going to try to bail him out with the least cost to him.
I donot for one minute think bad about the engine builder, he builds lot's of roundie round engines and i donot even know him personally. But as it's been said Blower and nitrous engine are different breeds. I will help this person and not charge him anything that i donot spend money on as long as he does the labor, and i do also feel bad for the mistakes that he was talked into..

Zip.

[cboggs]

Zip,

You dogged a bullet there, .. if you had sold him those heads
it would have all been your fault, .. :D


Curtis

[rabiddawg]

pro comps are chinese made arent they?

[zipper06]

pro comps are chinese made arent they?


Yep, and i sell them for street use only but not for use on any high perfomance,high out put engine..

RE, Curtis ,
You're right if i would have sold him those heads instead of a mail order house, the less than knowledgable engine builder would have laid all the blame on me and possibly would have brought it to my table.


Zip.

[fishman1]

do you not like mahle pistons or am i reading it wrong

[zipper06]

You're reading it right, i donot like Mahle pistons for a nitrous or blown application. They may be o'k for a street application or normally asperated engine but in my opinion the skirts are too short and too thin, also the deck thickness is too thin. Now grant it they are light weight, but i personally would not run them or put them in an engine i build, for hard all out racing. I know they have been around a long time in Indy type mtr. and formula 1 type racing and maybe some NASCAR teams use them.
But i'm not impressed with the sets that i have seen, but i also have the same opinion of Probe pistons. I may be old school, but i don't think you will find either of these pistons in any top notch NHRA race car, be it top fuel on down to super stock.

Now this just my opinion and it's not meant to make anyone mad.


Zip.

[billhendren]

You're reading it right, i donot like Mahle pistons for a nitrous or blown application. They may be o'k for a street application or normally asperated engine but in my opinion the skirts are too short and too thin, also the deck thickness is too thin. Now grant it they are light weight, but i personally would not run them or put them in an engine i build, for hard all out racing. I know they have been around a long time in Indy type mtr. and formula 1 type racing and maybe some NASCAR teams use them.
But i'm not impressed with the sets that i have seen, but i also have the same opinion of Probe pistons. I may be old school, but i don't think you will find either of these pistons in any top notch NHRA race car, be it top fuel on down to super stock.

Now this just my opinion and it's not meant to make anyone mad.


I will second your opinion,we had several sets fail in 15.0-1 circle track applications,a call to Mahle resulted in us being told not to run over 13.0-1 with there pistons,back to J-E or C-P Bill
Zip.

[zipper06]

(quote)
I will second your opinion,we had several sets fail in 15.0-1 circle track applications,a call to Mahle resulted in us being told not to run over 13.0-1 with there pistons,back to J-E or C-P

Bill

Good to hear it from someone who builds engines for a living.

Zip.

[zipper06]

iThis is not real, today i got a call from the very unhappy person who's pistons came apart. The engine/sht/blk builder told him he needed to buy 76CC heads at a cost of $1500.00 which would lower his static compression from 8.7 to 8.2. I laughed by butt off at this request. I steered him to Arais, but he choose to go to JE extreme duty -28 cc's which is o'k. I said DUH!!, 1500.00, what's wrong with going to Cosmetic .074 gaskets for a little over 200.00 and the ratio is the same 8.29 and save 1300.00 .
Am i wrong are some people just out there to rip people off, i never meant to get involved in this engine build but if some one didn't he would have to put his kids up for adoption and i'm too old to raise another family.

Zip.

PS, I also found out the the short blk builder set the top ring gaps at .024, Mahle recommends .035 for that piston. who's at fault here, never mind it's comming out of the custommers pocket.

[Blue68Camaro]

pro comps are chinese made arent they?
I thought they were made in australia?

[zipper06]

pro comps are chinese made arent they?
I thought they were made in australia?

RHS, pro action castings are made in Australia/New Zealand but ProComp Electronics home office is in Australia, but they are primarily and import company, and the USA warehouse is in Ca. They also buy some american products, in fact i just bought a Griffin radiator from Procomp. Believe me the heads are Chinese castings. I've been a dealer for them for 3 yrs, and have about $4,000.00 of stock on hand, from rocker arms,4340 cranks,head and main studs,valve covers, rods,and the list goes on. I donot advertise theses products on RJ or ebay i only sell word of mouth.

Zip.

[Robert1320]

Too Bad for your buddy. Really sounds like
he has pick the wrong build. Or one that doesn't
know his (you know) from a hole in the groud.

[billhendren]

[quote="zipper06"]iThis is not real, today i got a call from the very unhappy person who's pistons came apart. The engine/sht/blk builder told him he needed to buy 76CC heads at a cost of $1500.00 which would lower his static compression from 8.7 to 8.2. I laughed by butt off at this request. I steered him to Arais, but he choose to go to JE extreme duty -28 cc's which is o'k. I said DUH!!, 1500.00, what's wrong with going to Cosmetic .074 gaskets for a little over 200.00 and the ratio is the same 8.29 and save 1300.00 .
Am i wrong are some people just out there to rip people off, i never meant to get involved in this engine build but if some one didn't he would have to put his kids up for adoption and i'm too old to raise another family.

And he got bent over again, we sell J-E extreme duty piston sets for $706.80 with pin.Send that guy my way,I would love to make a 100% profit on a sale.Bill

[Pwmax]

I really hate to ruffle feathers, but, I read thru the original post, and I guess I am having a hard time finding where there was a problem with the heads? I understand the other mis-matched parts, but from what I can see, the heads was not an issue?? Again, not to disagree, and I really don't want to hype up these Pro-Comp, Srtike Force, etc etc, what ever they are called by whatever warehouse is selling them. But, here are my findings on the small block chevy, and big block chevy heads.

The big block heads, I would be scared to use with anything with moderate and above spring pressure. There is very little "meat" for the stud. They use a helicoil in that spot, and, part of it sticks into the port. So, that means the 320's would be the only ones I would use, on milder stuff, if it was on the cheap. As the 360's are flat to big for any hydraulic roller, or solid cam engine, unless it was a big inch deal, but then, you wouldn't be buying the cheap heads

The small block chevy heads, are, as much as I hate to say it, a pretty darn nice head for the money. I have had 3 sets in the shop now, 2 of which were brought to me, to be used on engine builds, and ported. The casting, is actualy very nice. THere is no porosity issues, its quality, hard aluminumn, and, actualy, I know this will bug some guys, but, I think its a nicer casting than the older Pre-eliminator AFR line, lol. Sorry Afr guys. The seats, are obviously quality powdered metal, one source says they are sbi seats and guides. All I know, is they cut like rocks. So far, on 2 sets, the valve train worked out nice. The stud holes were straight, the pushrods didn't hit anywhere, everything lined up right, and it was a simple, as it should be, assembly. They flow ok too. WIth absolutely nothing done, as delivered, they won;t set any flow benches on fire, but, 245 and 170, isn;t bad, for how crude the bowl is, and how god awful the guide boss's are. THe intake guide boss is rediculously big. With a 5 minute per port blend job, they flow 262 and 180. The port is a bit under 200cc. I used a set on a mild street/mud truck type application, 383, hydraulic cam, pump gas, old style Perf. Rpm, and it made 460hp, and 480 ft/lbs. Another set, I was used on another, a bit more agressive street, occasional bracket race combo, pump gas, 250 at ,050, .600 lift hydraulic roller, victor jr, heads were ported moderatly, about 205cc, 2.02 valve still, and they moved 280cfm on the intake, and 220 on the exhaust. That engine made 515hp, and 502 ft/lbs.

I bought a set for a budget engine that I am building for my car, so I can get the car out next year, while I build my all aluminumn, 427 ls1 style carbed engine for my car, its a 73 Camaro. But, since I will have very little money in this engine, I said, I am going to get a set of those cheap heads, and really go after them, and see how they work. My developtmental port, goes 306cfm, with a 2.05 valve, at about 218cc. My bench is conservative too, at least compared to a couple other local shops, one of which, is about 9 more than mine, and another, that is about 20 more. I welded, and offset the pushrod, and am using a .150 offset Harland sharp stud rocker, I thought about getting some T&D sportsman .220 offsets, but, it wouldn;t make sense, to spend more on the rockers than the heads, and it will keep my budget engine a budget engine, which, you guys would sh*t if you knew how little I will have in it. 388 inches, Scat cast steel crank, Eagle H-beams, Speed Pro 2vr forged coated skirt flat tops, Power Bond SFI dampner, Comp roller lifters, custom solid roller, etc etc. I will have about $1200 in cash out of my pocket in it. Owning an engine shop, you "aquire" a lot of stuff over the years, for cheap or free, and, comsidering I can do all the machining, and balancing, porting, etc etc, myself, it doesn't add up. My goal is over 600 on pump gas. It should be going on the pump, in the next month or so, in the middle of moving shop locations, and been busy trying to get stuff done, so, I haven't been working on it much lately, but hopefully in the next month or so. Like I said, this isn't an add for these heads, I actualy wish I would have gotten some new Platimun Dart Pro-1's, and, they would have worked better, with a bunch less work, which, I will say one thing, the Pro-Comp/Strike force heads, need a TON of work to get them to the level I have mine.



Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

[edvancedengines]

Frank,
I believe the deal is or was this;
For the price, many guys have had decent results with those heads. But according to bad experiences becuase of dealing with many of these most professional head porters have seen things of negatives the average customer usually doesn't see or experience.

It is not the heads which had little to few errors in them where the problems were/are. IT is the ones which escaped with costly errors in them that began giving these the bad reputation. We have seen and if you check this at any heavy teck forum you will see some of the same problems were experienced by a variety of different users and head shops. On error that ate a buyer alive was no matter how hard he tried, the rocker arm would not line up even with the valve and pushrods in his engine. That error from the mfg cost the buyer a ton of money to get corrected becuase the rocker stud bosses were all in the wrong place. I magne fixing that little error. His other head was ok. It is well known that the castings are a thin casting. It is well known that the advertised flow numbers are bogus on anyone's bench. It is also well known that for the port flow they do have the port csa is huge in comparison.

The cylinder head Ghru like Curtis Boggs etc, have no financial reason to talk against these becasue it is money in the bank to have to fix them when the ones with the errors show up. There may not have been many but there were enough so that several different shops experienced repairing issues with them.

Ed

[Pwmax]

Ed, like I said, I didn't want to start an argument, and hype these things up. So far, and, to be honest, I don;t plan on recomending these heads, I will still try to push Dart and Brodix stuff, but, out of 3 sets, well, I should say 2, everything lined up, and worked out. I haven't mocked any valve train on mine yet, but as is usualy the case, I will end up with the crap set, lol. I have had poorly fitting valve trains, on the biggest name heads too, on occasion, and its no fun to try and make the stuff work, especially when your stuck with them, because they are ported already, and can't send them back. They really arent that thin, at least the deck thickness is as thick as a Pro-Topline, had a set in recently, an older set, that, I worked up, and, those were quite good, and there was a lot of meat everywhere else, and, they are fairly heavy, compared to some comparable heads. I didn;t sonic test any areas, but I used my highly accurate index finger/thumb measuring gauge,lol, and, there is no fear of burning thru anywhere. I consider myself a cylinder head guru as well, beings how I have been porting cylinder heads for going on 20 years, and have done cylinder heads from basicaly every auto manufacturer there is, foreign and domestic, motorcyles, 2 stroke stuff, atv and dirt bikes, factory castings, to big chiefs, and everything in between, I am not a 22 year old kid, fresh out of Hot Rod U, with 3 days of porting instruction. I have customers World wide, and have, like you, been quietly, building some of the highest quality, most powerful engines, dollar/dollar that a guy can buy.

We have full machining capabilities, in house, and can do every necessary machining operation that you need, in house. Line boring, line honing, have the full line of BHJ blueprinting fixtures, except for a couple, but, we borrow the ones we don't have, if necessary, and visa versa, with a good friend who also has a shop, PCD/CBN surfacing, for mirror finishes, if necessary, Boring, tq plate honing, 2 bridgeports, gas porting, fly cutting, balancing, mig/tig, lathe, Sunnen seat and guide machine, rod work, flow bench, splayed cap instalation, etc etc etc. There are a lot of "wanna be" engine assemblers, that work out of their garage, and call themselves engine shops, not here. So, I can evaluate stuff, as good as the next guy. I just am not a big self promoter, like some guys, that might change, though, as it seems the guys that toot their own horns the most, get the most recognition, even if its not deserved. That last comment, is not directed toward anyone here, just a general observation I have noticed over the years. THe biggest crooks, with the least ability, that pound adds, advertise like crazy, and in general, pound their name down everyones throats, seem to be doing quite well. Now, add honesty, and ability, and take it to the next level.

Like I said, I am not, and was not, promoting those heads. I bought a set, based on the 2 other sets I have worked on as of late, maybe they improved the originals? All I know, is, the aluminumn cut awfuly "hard". Some of the heads, like the older AFR's, cut like butter.

As far as flow numbers go, mine are as "honest" as they come. I have never infalted numbers, to sell porting, or heads, because it just doesn't seem right to me. I know for a fact, that I have lost work, because I will quote a number that is lower than what someone else quoted a guy, so, they go to the other shop, because, they said they can get them to flow more, and then, my customer, handily spanks them down track, and, they compare flow numbers, on the sheet of paper, and, wow, mine are off by 20, but, made more power on the dyno, and ran .3 tenths faster, with a smaller cam, less compression, less gear, less converter, in a heavier car. I can't count how many times I have been told that exact situation has happened. But, the guy is still convinced, his heads are better, because a sheet of paper says so.

My heads, at 218cc, aren;t all that big in cross section. About 5cc, is from moving the pushrod out of the way, to straighten out the runner, and slow the air down, at the opening, and improve/ balance the velocity profile in the port, so there is a more even velocity profile in the port, and reduce turbulence. It is by no means huge. I have a lot of time, playing with the short turn, have tried 3 different valve jobs, 3 or 4 different valves, etc, to get the numbers I have gotten. Like I said, 306 cfm is a killer number on my bench, with the proper cross section, for my application. I am trying to make 600-625+hp, on a 11:1, pump gas 388, that won't have to spin 7500 to do it, make 520+ ft/lbs, I am sure there are others out there, that make more, but not for $1200. Like I said, I wish I would have bought the Darts, but, I am stuck with these heads, and, I am going to make the best of them, and, i only need 1 season out of this engine, even though I know it will run hard for years to come, its just a what I call a transitional engine, to get my car out, that has been sitting for more than a few years, while I build my all aluminumn, 427 LS1 style engine, that I plan to run on E-85 and a carb, and retro fit in my 73 Camaro. Anyone have expierince fitting these new engines in cars like mine? I hear its not that difficult really, and, its amazing how cheap you can build an absolutely killer LS style engine for these days. Gm has a cool front cover now that adapts a front mount, small block Ford type distributor to these engines also, eliminating any fancy electronics, if you so choose to go that route. My goal is about 750hp, and still street it a bit, thats what I am excited about. So, Ed, With all due respect, Frank

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

[zipper06]

My biggest issue with the heads are the deck thickness and meat under the valve spring pocket. The deck is atmost 3/8' to 7/16" thick. i wouldn't want to put a set on a b/blk chevy with 15 to 1 compression, because i don't think the gaskets will stay on the engine. I wouldn't want to put over 200 lbs on the springs either.
I have not had any issuses with he sets i've sold so far. I see people selling them for $700.00 to $800.00 ready to bolt on. They are making a couple hundred $'s on each set by just assembling them and in some cases they have them shipped from the warehouse already assembled which could be disasterous. I usually buy the bare heads and the assemle kit, that way i at least know the heads are assembled correctly.
i know the flow rates are bogus, Direct Motion claims 308 @ .700 with the 210's fully CNC'ed. I don't have access to a flow bench so i don't know.
I would not worry about putting them on a street motor, but in an all out race motor i would not run them, and i've got lot's of procomp inventory and sell $1,000.00's annuelly.
That's just my take on the heads, i've only had a couple failures with other procomp parts in 3 yrs.
I think if you can get flow rates up around 300CFM, no matter who's heads they are you can build some decent HP, like brodix track 1's only flow 272CFM with the CNC port match, but you can angle mill them suckers to 52/54 CC combustion chambers and they really wake up.

JMO

Zip.

[Pwmax]

Zipper,

I agree, I wouldn;t run them on something trying to make a ton of power, with big spring pressures either. I should have probably just kepy my mouth shut about them actualy, but, its to late for that now, lol. I also wish I wouldn;t have boughten these heads, as, I created a TON of extra work for myself, like usual.

As far as bogus flow numbers, I haven't flowed any of the cnc'd versions, but, I would bet, they aren;t even close to 308cfm, at 210cc. I am sure its a quick, basic port job, digitized, and recreated on the copy machine. THe set I did that went 280, was closer to that port volume, and they went 279.9 at .700, which, is rounded to 280. I will have some dyno numbers in a few weeks, hopefully, and I will give my Pro-Comp update. Actualy, mine are Strike Force heads, from EPW, same head, in a nicer box, lol. But man, did I mention the box? It was really nice. It was all foamed, and, the heads were further wrapped in bubble wrap. It was a nice box.

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

[zipper06]

Actually according to Direct motion they can get the heads out to 225 runners they say and that's what they say they will flow 308 CFM, but again it's just advertising i think.
I've got a set of Bodix 10's FP RP, and with 2.140 tit intakes and the flow #'s only say 314 CFM at .700 and that's fully hand ported. I don't know who ported them because i bought them with valves used. I will be finding out if the 10's work because they are going a 434 that's going in my malibu this winter with 2 7/16" hilborn stacks on alky.

Zip.

[margaritaman]

I'll add my .02. I have the ProComp heads, but only because I never ever planned to race the thing, or drive it down the track. Well...tomorrow I'm going to the track for the second time! This will be the last time on the ProComps and then I'm switching to the AFR 210s with Jesels that are on the workbench. The AFRs weren't my first choice, but I got them from a friend and the price was right, real right.
But back to the ProComps. I run .662/.673 and this was the second set my builder went through. The first ones the seats weren't right.
They work, but they are definitely the weak link and holding me back. Blower or not, there is only so much you can push through a small hole.
You're right, they're ok for the street, but continued beating makes me nervous.
Since you were wondering, first time fresh off the show circuit to the track with zero tuning yielded a 7.02 @ 98. So if I can hit the 6.80s tomorrow I'm celebrating. The show queen runneth!
Now for the bragging: Pick up next month's Super Chevy! :wink: