oil brand

Old 05-28-2013, 06:08 AM
  #31  
roadkill2
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I dunno if the Automotive Manufacturers "Saw it coming" or precipitated it through cost cutting in manufacture . . It was about in the mid '70's that we started seeing cams "Go Flat' on both SBC and BBC engines with aftermarket cams in them. I shared a building with a Racing Engine Builder back then and he started seeing camshaft failures about that time. Cop Camps were the worst back then, and if you wanted to be bulletproof you shelled out for a Crower Valve train. Their selling point was that they hardened all rotating surfaces, but they too suffered quite a few failures.

And here's one of the basic reasons why . . Metals of the same hardness don't like each other. If you have a Kryptonite Cam Lobe and a Kryptonite Lifter surface, be it flat tappet or roller, one will "Gall" the other the first time the Lubricant fails or isn't there . .

That's why all your rotating bearings are made of a dissimilar metal, much softer and malleable. While the Bearing metal isn't actually self lubricating, it takes up the slack for a whole plethora of things like dirt, lack of lubricating film at one time or another and heat caused expansion and contraction. Like metals can't/won't do that.

And stupidly, two similar metals with the same hardness, generally, when rotating together at high speeds and heavy spring pressure or other resistance will gall almost immediately without some sort of "Bearing material(s)" being present between the two. Basically, the Zinc and other bi-metallic additives become the "Different metal" that keeps the two similar metals apart.

The above is an attempt to explain why the aftermarket parts manufacturers have gone to less hardening of their Cams and some other rotating parts that comprise an assembly. If you have hardened roller or flat tappet followers (Lifters) then you shouldn't need a hardened cam lobe to make it work, and thus, if you want to be correct and safe, you'll put the engine together with lots of Assembly lube and run high contents of Zinc and other bi-metallic additives to your oil, or buy high buck oil with all that already in it . .

In theory, this avenue cut manufacturing costs and gave the racers a better product, if they followed the instructions( Instructions? I don't need no stinkin instructions) and understood why they were doing it . .

They forgot who they were dealing with . . Heheheheheheh . .
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:27 AM
  #32  
DRTRCR22
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Originally Posted by zipper06
So Jim my question is, when you use a zinc adative what oil do you suggest a person use. Are you talking about using a none detergent oil when using a zinc adative. The reason i'm intrested is i had my cam go flat in my Elky, it was in the engine for over 6 yrs. I changed the oil and in a couple weeks it went flat. I've now changed the cam and bought Lucas zinc adative, but i used a 10X40 oil with the supplement zinc. Did i waste the $12.00 on the zinc or should i change to a none detergent oil with another pint of zinc. I've only ran the engine about 1 hr since putting it back together and i don't want this cam to go flat like the last one.
As far as cams going flat i've got a friend who run a sprint car and he has has atleast a 1/2 doz. cams go flat (rules dicate a flat tattet cam)and as you said some on the test stand. The cam manufauturers just say o'well.

Zip.

Well Zip, I use the additive ONLY for break-in... added to an already good racing oil such as Brad Penn, Joe Gibbs, Royal Purple or Valvoline VR1, IF I do not have one of their break-in oils handy (the nearest race shop is 70 miles away). After a thorough break-in, I drain the break-in formula out and change filter, and use only one of the excellent racing oils listed above straight up.
After trying all the above, I find the VR1 is the most cost effective and easiest to find at most auto parts stores.
Logically, if you put any additive in a shelf oil that was designed to take the zinc and phosphorus out, you will be wasting you money because the elements will be isolated and filtered out of the system.
On small engines with no filters, I only use one of the racing oils with the ZPPD in it, because I am still not quite so sure on the Honda or Briggs & Stratton blends or other small engine formulas... because they don;t tell you what exactly is in in it...?

Ok, I will now jump to the cam hardness issue...
Jim
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:46 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by roadkill2
Absolutely no hard fact here, but empirical evidence would indicate that the cams aren't being made of the same materials or surface hardened as well as they used to be.
I'm saying that because for years, 99% of us ran plain old Valvoline or Pennz racing oil that had little or no additive and while we suffered lots of bearing loss, seldom did we hurt a camshaft, and when we did it was usually an errant rod or broken lifter that did the damage, not a flat lobe . .
Ok RK, I gotcha on this one... your key word here is "for [years] - plain old Valvoline or Pennz [racing] oil with little or no additive" ...!

Wrong... these oils DID have the ZPPD additive in them, before the government mandated the removal of such because of the poisonous fumes and pluggin of catalytic coverters starting in the mid eighties.

Here's a little story you can verify in web research...
One of the greatest racing oils ever made and readily on the shelves most everywhere was Kendall GT1. Kendall sold out with the stipulation that the buyers do not ever change the high ZPPD formula or the iconic green color. Well, it wasn't long before the new owners did both, so they took the new owners to court in breach of contract lawsuit. The old owners won the lawsuit to retake over their formula and color, but they could not have the name back... so, being the huge main refirnery and processing plant is based in Bradford PA, they went back into production of the "Brad-Penn Grade 1 racing oil - the Green Oil".
As Paul Harvey would say... "now you know the rest of the story..." :O)
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:54 AM
  #34  
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you guys are sharp. great info. I am currently usin' kendall GT1 , I mean Brad Penn ;)
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:17 AM
  #35  
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OK, as far as cam hardness and makeup... I agree with most of you...?
Yes, I am sure that many cams and race parts come out of China nowdays with nowhere near the same quality control we use to see. Like everything else in our lives nearly everything has been corrupted with cutting corners in quality, design and costs.

The past few years we have had very good luck with using a Nitride hardened (flat tappet) cam, with drilled face lifters that constantly pressure oil the lobes.
We just pulled one out after two seasons and hundreds of laps of hard dirt track modified racing, and it still looks almost brand new... so do the lifters. We could resuse them, but don't like taking risky chances.

After thorogh break-in with Brad-Penn Break-In oil, I ran Valvoline VR1 20-50 both seasons, changing oil and filter about every third race night... (about 100 laps). This is a cam that most people would say is a [risky cheap cam] to be putting into a $10k engine, but I love this cam for excellent neck breaking torque and full range of pulling power from 3200 thru 7800. It is a PRC109H from JR Motorsports/ Karl performance. I have used this cam and lifter setup for years in the modified class and have never had a failure. I beleive this would be a great high torque drag race cam also for someone on a budget...?

Back to the point... even if the cam metalurgy is not what it use to be, if you do it right you will have much better luck. I have seen various different extremely expensive race parts fail for who knows what reason, so nothing is failsafe no matter where or how it was made. Of course, if you rely on a proven reliable company and reputation, and you use it properly, your odds of success greatly increases... :O)
Jim
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Old 05-29-2013, 10:51 AM
  #36  
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I ran Kendal GT also all of my life until they sold out, Brad Penns oil is impossible to buy in my area, the only way to buy it is mail order then pay $20.00 a case for shipping. the only thing i run gas in is my generator, i only run alcohol.
About the small hole in th solid lifters, it's probable a good idea for solid cams, but it can't be done with a street hydraulic lifter cam, especially with a stock oil pump with a 42lb bypass spring.
At the shop i worked for 13 yrs and still do if i need to make something, we have 5 EDM machines ( Electronic discgare machines) 3 of which are wire burners (We make plastic injection molds) we can cut any design in a 6 or 8" heat treated block of steel and the difference from top to bottom will be less than .001. We also have an EDM hole puncher that can put a 1/16" hole thrun an 8" block of steel in less than 10 minutes, so i can do a complete set of lifters with a .015 hole in about 1/2 hr.
I still have the cam that went flat in my El Camino, the next time i up to Ms. where the shop is i'm gonna take it with me nad check the hardness and also the lifters that went flat. I've also got a couple flat tappet racing cams i.m going to check the hardness on them at the same time just for curisity
In the meantime i'll just cross my fingers and hope the new cam in the Elky doesn't go flat.

Zip.
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Old 05-29-2013, 11:51 AM
  #37  
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Yes Zip, Brad Penn and Joe Gibbs formulas are kinda hard to find... usually only at speed parts centers. Every time I get on the road and near a speed shop I grab another case or two.

However I have been having extremely good luck with the Valvoline VR1 20-50 right here from our local O'Rilley's Parts store. Its almost 3 bucks a quart cheaper than BP or JG, and even my expert race engine builder has started using too... and NO we don't put any additonal ZDDP additive in it.

The nice thing about the BP Green Oil is is does not foam up and wash down under alcohol use like some of the others do. I noticed the JG 20-50 got white and milky and thin fairly quickly when I ran alky, espcially if I ran the jets a little on the fat side...

I hear ya about hydraulic lifters, but I haven't run any of those since the mid eighties...? One option may be the Rhodes lifters, or a really good (read expensive) set of hydraulic race lifters...?
I still think the VR1 20-50 is probably your best bet for your hydraulic cam and lifter set...? Keep the lash set properly (1/4 to 1/2 turn after stops ticking...?) and don't ever let the lifters 'slap' the lobes (except for setting them at idle) or you will be risking failure damage no matter what else is going on...?

Question... I am reading this right...? are you saying you are running alcohol on a hydraulic cam and lifter engine...? Hmmm...?

Jim
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Old 05-29-2013, 06:52 PM
  #38  
zipper06
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NO,NO,NO, i'm not running any hydaulic cam on any racing engine. I have all roller setups, except i do have a prostreet 406 with a solid lift cam. I only brought up the hydaulic lifter as for a street car with a decent cam such as my El Camino with a .510 lift, definately not a race car, but a kinda daily driver. It only ran .840's in the 1/8 mile with street tires.
The only reason i got into this conversation was to try and figure out how to not get another flat cam on the street, which might get 3,000 miles a yr.

On the roller motors i have, which are a 377" toilet bowl injected, a 434" with Hilborn stacks, and a 383" 1471 blown alcohol engine.

I don't have the oil holes in any of the roller motors, but i do, is grind a .002 X 1/16"W flat on the top side of the roller lifter in the lower half of the lifters to oil the rollers, that way the rollers get more oil. I started doing that long before they started putting oil holes in the bottom of the lifters.
I don't use any special $8.00 a quart oil in the engines, and yes i get milking it's almost impossible not too. So i just change it about every 15 passes, along with the filter. We all know that the milking comes from warmup and not after the engine is warm unless the rings are impropperly gapped, so i'm pretty careful warming the engine up with the fuel pump pulled to 1/2 open while warming them up. Course the blower motor doesn't care how i warm it up, so that oil cange is after every trip to the track.

Zip.
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:01 AM
  #39  
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Oh, ok Zip...gotcha...

did you see that Comp now makes a brand new roller filter with pressurized roller bearing oiling....? don't know how much they cost, but it probably aint cheap...

As far as I know the Bred-Penn green oil is the only one that does not milk or break down so bad with alky...?

Good thread... enjoyed the chat, thanks... Jim
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Old 05-30-2013, 10:02 AM
  #40  
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Yeah... good stuff on this thread listening to DRT, RK & Zip. Although I don't race or run alky, it is good stuff. I am trying more to understand this comment Zip said: (bear w/ me... I still have a lot to learn).

"but i do, is grind a .002 X 1/16"W flat on the top side of the roller lifter in the lower half of the lifters to oil the rollers, that way the rollers get more oil" I am trying to visualize it exactly. No harm done in doing this to a street motor right?

One more question about lifters & roller set ups: Zip said this: "i'm not running any hydraulic cam on any racing engine. I have all roller setups, except i do have a prostreet 406 with a solid lift cam".

A solid cam set up (I only have had one) is different than Hydraulic... but on your roller motors Zip... aren't they solid roller cams?? or am I confused? What makes a "roller motor" different than a motor with a solid cam w/ rollers... or is there a difference?
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