Double Adjustable Shocks "Waste of $$ or Not"

Old 05-16-2007, 10:36 AM
  #11  
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#1- I would say that your pretty smart chassis man is maybe a little too smart

#2 Your chassis expert is far smater than anyone I know in High Horsepopwer racing

#3- Also tell your chassis expert to do some research into performance shocks

WHY ED


Brian
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Old 05-16-2007, 10:12 PM
  #12  
edvancedengines
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Brian,
Most shocks designed and built for performance and for certain racing shocks do not only contain one chamber.

he advised me that there was NO WAY that the bleed over from the compression and rebound could be seperated in one canister as the double adjustable shock is designed....although the claims are made that it can be done by the manufactures, he advises that unless there is a independant canister there is no way both compression and rebound can be accuratley (seperated) attained from one cylinder
The one round shock absorber does contain many separate chambers with several different load sensing valves. Depending on the brand and on which shock they are all made different but I do not know of any that only have one chamber in the way he is talking about one canister.

You probably live in a house. That house is only one building. Inside that building are several rooom unrelated to each other. To separate those chambers/rooms you have doors. Shock absorbers have internal valves and not just one but several. Some of these valves are pressure sensitive and some are speed sensitive in relation to pressure changes.

Do not think of a shock absorber as a simple hydraulic cylinder with a piston and ram. Do not think of a shock absorber as a tire pump . iT is a designed complex piece of engineering with comp0lex valed controlled chambers each for different reasons and functions.

Years ago Carrera tried to get into the Drag Racing market and made several different shocks for drag racing. They abandoned the idea a few years later becuase their shocks were inferrior to the needs of drag cars as compared to the other front runers in the market like Koni and Monroe. Monroe made a great aluminum coil over for drag racing fore a few years but dropped out becuase it was not profitable for the amount sold. Armstrong which is big in formula racing tried the drag shock market and just did not make the grade. Their drag shocks were like their Formula 1 shocks of the day just with longer travel.

What you chassis man is telling you is defying all that serious drag racers have found to work and be sucessful for years.

..i went to the BIG BOYS (NHRA SOUTHERN NATIONALS) race last week and looked under several of the BIG name cars such as Greg Anderson etc...low and behold i saw double adjustable shocks but with a independant canister with remote wiring (NONE of the Double adjustable stuff being sold as we know it)....i do not know what brand they use cause i could not get close enough..( i assume they have them custom built or something to that degree) but i will list a few brand name manufactures that build these shocks..they are the TRUE double adjustable shocks and they are very HIGH PRICE...
If you got near enough to Greg Anderson's shocks to see them, consider yourself to be fortunate. As I stated earlier in the beginning of the first part of this racing season that team was using shocks of the latest F1 technology with remote controllers were connected to onboard computers and the cost of only one set exceded $100,000, for just one car. Maybe that is what you saw. Maybe you saw a Penske Co2 Chamber attached to the Pro Stock [email protected] microprocessor controlled shocks.

I think I have said enough.
.

I try to help. If My info is no help, pass it up and don;t waste your time reading them. I assure you it takes me much much more time to write them, than it takes anyone to read them. I can not type and I do the best I can.

A do agree that even the lowliest double adjustable does cost more money. MY OPINION. It is the best money for suspension parts you will spend.

I also agree that if you are going to buy a good double adjustable and are lazy and never chnage any shock tuning, to save your money and just buy a cheaper shock.

Ed
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Old 05-17-2007, 05:44 AM
  #13  
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Ed- it may be hard to believe but he and i both know that the shock was a little more detailed than just a cylinder and a piston..remember this is inernet and e-mail is almost impossible to convey everything and be totally satisfied the person reading is comprehending what your TYPING.


now its without question you are far above my intelligence on the shock thing.....

but one thing i can say for sure is that there is a GOOD VALID reason why they have made the true double and triple adjustable shock with a remote canister for fine tunning the compression....there was a reason they felt this should be indepenedent..i can assure you i am going to google it to death until i find the reason it went this direction..when i find the answer i am going to post it..i think i am close with some material i read last night.

Since this thread i have read up on the shock thing and i can copy and paste much information of how and why the remote cannister has come into play...if Anyone out there is interested just Google it and you will see yourself that there is some legit debate in this area.


Now as for Getting too Close to Greg Anderson's car...thats not as hard as you make it sound..for starters he is a very close to mutual friend of Greg and i. as matter of fact Lindsay speaks to him by phone on a regular basis.

Plus unless you haven't been to a BIG NHRA POWERADE RACE LATELY..you can walk right up within a few feet of anyone's car..definatley close enough to look at the shocks....what i saw 3 weeks ago on Gregs car wasn't the double adjustable shocks as the common joe knows it....it was a remote canister with a #4 braided line running to the mian body of the shock..NO OUESTION a remote double adjustable canister.


so i will ask you this question again..."Can you prove with facts" that a double adjustable off the shelve shock will not have any bleed over issues invloving compression and rebound.....
If you say there is No possibility of this happening then please educate all of us why you feel this way with facts.also explain why the external canister was developed if there wasn't some fine tunning issues here.


this is a good info and i appreciate all of the time you take to share this info..this is really teaching people the other side of things..i believe so anyhow.

thanks brian
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Old 05-17-2007, 07:10 AM
  #14  
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Brian,
Did the shocks look like these? Ooops maybe I shouldn't have posted these?



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Old 05-17-2007, 07:55 AM
  #15  
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Brian,
I am far from a shock expert. I only know so much. I have had the opportunity years ago though to see a fully cutaway version of the Pro Stock Double Adjustabe that Monroe was making. It was made from a clear material for show demo purposes and I was really impressed. I also saw the similar thing in the Bilstien Gas Cushion shock which was different but displayed the same with the clear material shoing all the valves, the fluids etc. Just by moving them rapidly by hand I could see the differences when the gas was introduced by the complex valving system and was again recovered in a separate chamber. The Monroe was a oil operated shock with gas preure introdiced in needed amounts to keep the oil from aeroating. The Bilstien was a Gas Cushion shock that was far different in design.

I think that the shocks that Tom posted the pic of are the Co2 Chamberd Penske Pro Stock style shock, The extra canisters are for a Co2 gas.

IN my opion Roger Lamb is the foremost authority in drag racing shocks and it is similar to what is being called off the shelf double adjustabes that he modifies for serious racing in the top cars. If you buy the best car that Tim McAmis, Jerry Haas, Jerry Bickel, Rick Jones, Don Ness, and others make for the ultimate drag racing class of NHRA Pro Stock, you will get either the Co2 Penske with controller or the Strange or Koni Electronic with controller. Before these two options existed the double adjustabe that Koni, Afco, and Strange sells were the hottest thing available. Like I said before, most of the real serious racers do send their shocks to Roger Lamb for re-calibrating, or they buy shocks from him.

This is my last post on this subject. I have no proof and really don't care if anyone disagrees with what I have written or not. I go by memory in ust about everything I post. So what is in my head can not be proven to anyone.

If anyone really cares to find out more the information is available. Call any of the Pro Stock builders and sk for shock recommendations.

Ed
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Old 05-17-2007, 08:18 AM
  #16  
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Ed- Yes it looked like this along with some electrical type of apparatus that i am sure is the controller part of what you mentioned.

i do not mean this post to seem like i have challanged you in any way. i expected my original post to be questioned but looking back i would have worded some things differently..but hind sight is 20/20..

but it sort of goes hand in hand with my Chassis man stating that bleed over does occur causing fine tunning to be some what of a problem.


I CAN HONESTLY SAY I HAVE LEARNED MORE FROM YOUR POST IN 3 WEEKS THAN I HAVE LEARNED ON THE FORRUM IN 3 YEARS..
AND FOR THAT I THANK YOU SIR !.
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Old 05-17-2007, 09:40 AM
  #17  
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I am not a chassis guy, but I am an engineer and I do understand what Ed was talking about. There are differences between things that will work for the space shuttle vs most of our race cars. The thing that has to be remembered Brian, is that ProStock is not for the "normal" person. I love ProStock and we have a lot of the ProStock technology in our cars, but to a degree it has been "down sized" for normal racers on a budget. Pro Stock is trying to find every .001 of a second that they can, so if they can change a shock to get rid of the least amount of variable, they will. They have the carbon fiber driveshafts, gun drilled axles, and the list goes on. These are items that you would not necessarily need for your Camaro, but would be nicer for your Corvette. The same thing goes for the top of the line shocks.

I have the single adjustable shocks on rear of my car with 12 settings, but set at setting #4. With my limited use with them, I have found that #3 is too soft (walks around on the top end) and #5 is too stiff (spins the tires harder at the start) The other settings were useless on my car, so I would in time step up to the double adjustable shocks to have a little more range. They wouldn't be as good as the new Pro-stock style, but they would work better on my car. It really depends on what you are expecting out of them, how big your budget is, and how fast your car is. The double adjustable shocks that we can easily purchase now were used on the Pro-stock cars of the past until they found a little better way to adjust the car.

From what I remember Warren Johnson talking about the pro-stock shocks several years ago, was so that they had the external resevoirs and CO2 cannisters was so that they could change the valving as the car went down the track and be a little more precise. If all of the valving is internal, it is more difficult to change for different sections of the track. The shocks hold the car up a little more at the beginning for better traction and then start letting it settle more as it goes down the track for better aerodynamics.

Bill M
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:08 PM
  #18  
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hey Bill...i agree with everything you just said.

i think this thread is turning into something that its not as many of them do.

the baseline question was:
" does the double adjustable ( off the shelve)" shock stand a possibility of a bleed over from compression and rebound since its housed in the same body..
My chassis Guy says Yes and he has proved it with his shock dyno..

i do not think i got 'NO' from the last replies but got alot of other GREAT information.....( no sarcasm)



i used several TRUE double adjustable manufacture names to be able to show people the difference in this type shock. ( EXAMPLE ONLY)

the prostock guys were used as an example because they are on the cutting edge and will use the best route when it comes to their shocks.

Rj forum caters mostly to novice to weekend warriors (including me) who's cars are on the lower HP levels compared to the Pro-mod/pro-stock cars.....with that said the Novice racers are the ones that are going out here and buying the double adjustable shock when they really never need it to begin with..

so i was just trying to shead some light with these people on the difference in a true double adjustable shock VS what they are buying from chassis engineering etc.......does the off the shelf have greater range of adjustment ? ..YES.....is there a grey area of accuratley adjusting them because of rebound and compression Bleed over ?..My opinion is YES....anyone could find FACT based ionformation to back this up by GOOGLING double adjustable shock and being prepared to take some time to read mountains of information regarding the developement of the independant shock and why it was developed...

i have yet to find information supporting the opposite :?: :?:

i am still searching on my own and asking from members on the forum if you say "NO" there is not a chance of bleed over please provide me with facts to back this up.Even Ed with all the experience and advise he shared with his reponse (with respect) cannot state without a doubt with facts that bleed over is not an issue with the off the shelve double adjustable shock..

i personally believe that the (off the shelve double adjustable) shock has some issues in this area, this is why the newer independent shocks has been introduced because they were missing something in the finer tunning of this shock and they narrowed it down to the seperation of the compression/rebound by means of an external canister.

i am not telling anyone to go out and buy a pair of these shocks but i felt some would like to know the history of the finer tunning portion of the shock.......

is it worth it ?? that all depends on what you are wanting to do..your car,your budget...etc.......


i am like Ed at this point i have said enough,,anything further and i am just repeating myself......i will close my portion of this thread with saying if anyone out there has ANY fact based information that bleed over doesn't exsist in the off the shelve shock please let me know..

i think you know me well enough that i can except different opinions on all subject matter and i never take it personal and will never, never discredit anyone's opinion...cause they are entitled to it...

Ed i truly appreciate your insight and knowledge in this area. its people like you we learn from and grow in our passion for this sport/hobby etc...

thanks Bill for your input..i have learned some good stuff from this thread.

brian
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Old 05-17-2007, 01:32 PM
  #19  
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Brian

Is this the reason you are talking about the shocks bleeding over into the other part of the chamber?

If so,maybe thats why some of your smart chassis builders or tuners,put the double adjustable shocks on "upside down"?
This inturns keep the fluid on the down side of the shock,so gravity wins,LOL

Is this what you are trying to bring out,and why?I think this will help the bleeding over into the other part of the chamber.

Thats how I got my Afco's,and besides that it is much easier to adjust the "sweeps" for tuning,the clicks are a knob and can be adjusted easily it the top position.

Most race cars are tight,its much easier to do the "sweeps" when they are on the bottom,towards the ground. :P
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Old 05-18-2007, 06:44 AM
  #20  
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YOU HAVE A PM.

Brian
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