Starting Issues
06-03-2008, 02:47 AM
#21
Senior Member
DYNO OPERATOR
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Rifle Colorado
Posts: 585
Example: Set your timing normally, let's say at 38 deg. Bump it over and align the timing marks to 38 deg on #1 compression stroke. With a small staight edge and a pointed sharpy, make a vertical line on the side of the dist cap and base at the center of #1 post. Remove the cap and align the center of the rotor with the mark you made on the base. Try to be as accurate as possible. Obviously you'll need an adjustable rotor if not using a crank trigger. That's it. Hope this helps,
Johnny
Johnny
06-03-2008, 05:11 AM
#22
Senior Member
RACING JUNKIE
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,137
I put my distributor in with the number one piston exactly at 38 deg before tdc on compresion stroke. I turn the oil pump with a screwdriver to get it to drop in exactly right there...then turn the distributer wherever I need to to get it pointed exactly at the prong on the cap...timing is perfect as soon as I start it.
I don't understand the NEED for an adjustable rotor :?
Once you get the distributer to fall in by turning the oil pump with a screwdriver...the engine is still sitting 38 deg btdc so when you turn the distributer the rotor doesn't move...and since the cap has a locating notch to put it on the distributer the same spot every time you can just turn the body of the distributer until the prong in the cap lines up perfectly with the tip of the rotor.
JMO...works for me. If there is something I'm missing tell me because most of you been doing this longer than me...but I usually don't even need to touch the distributer after I start it ...I still check it though
p.s. obviously this won't work if the advance isn't locked out.
I don't understand the NEED for an adjustable rotor :?
Once you get the distributer to fall in by turning the oil pump with a screwdriver...the engine is still sitting 38 deg btdc so when you turn the distributer the rotor doesn't move...and since the cap has a locating notch to put it on the distributer the same spot every time you can just turn the body of the distributer until the prong in the cap lines up perfectly with the tip of the rotor.
JMO...works for me. If there is something I'm missing tell me because most of you been doing this longer than me...but I usually don't even need to touch the distributer after I start it ...I still check it though
p.s. obviously this won't work if the advance isn't locked out.
06-03-2008, 10:52 AM
#23
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Rifle Colorado
Posts: 585
I see your point. Perhaps "need" wasn't the right term. If the ditributor doesn't require turning to nail the timing you want, then that'll work. But if you have to turn the distributor your rotor phasing will be off. I'm not "The Professor", but I'll do my best to explain.
First are production tolerances. All mass producers have them. Basically the relationship between the reluctor and the distributor shaft, between the distributor and the rotor, and between the distributor and cap, could all be slightly off. Let's assume that each one was off 2 degrees retarded. That's probably an extreme and unlikely example by the way. Now if you set it up the way you decribed, you'll end up moving the distributor to set timing, and the rotor will be out of phase 6 degrees retarded with the post in the cap. To further complicate matters, all of MSD's timing controls, including the 7al3, retard the timing about 4 degrees just by hooking them up, not activating them. That throws your rotor phasing off another 2 degrees retarded for a total of 8.
Now you throw in a 25 degree start retard and your rotor phasing is off another 12.5 degrees for a total of 20.5 degrees retarded. At this point, it might be easier for the spark to jump to the next post instead of the intended one and bang! It kicks back as if the timing was really advanced.
Sorry for the long post, but I couldn't think of a way to explain it any shorter.
Later,Johnny
First are production tolerances. All mass producers have them. Basically the relationship between the reluctor and the distributor shaft, between the distributor and the rotor, and between the distributor and cap, could all be slightly off. Let's assume that each one was off 2 degrees retarded. That's probably an extreme and unlikely example by the way. Now if you set it up the way you decribed, you'll end up moving the distributor to set timing, and the rotor will be out of phase 6 degrees retarded with the post in the cap. To further complicate matters, all of MSD's timing controls, including the 7al3, retard the timing about 4 degrees just by hooking them up, not activating them. That throws your rotor phasing off another 2 degrees retarded for a total of 8.
Now you throw in a 25 degree start retard and your rotor phasing is off another 12.5 degrees for a total of 20.5 degrees retarded. At this point, it might be easier for the spark to jump to the next post instead of the intended one and bang! It kicks back as if the timing was really advanced.
Sorry for the long post, but I couldn't think of a way to explain it any shorter.
Later,Johnny
06-07-2008, 08:45 PM
#24
Senior Member
RACING JUNKIE
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Coldwater, MI
Posts: 2,998
Figured out 2 issues this week, the starter on the motor was low torque starter for a lower compression motor. My starter guy said get a new better one so I do got a high torque starter from him, put it in there along with a new tci flexplate. It whips the motor over awesome and has no kickback at all.
Today while racing it started right up everytime with no issues all day, best starting I've ever had with injection started like a carb. I had no idea the starter in there wasnt meant for it, its a starter I've used several times in the past.
I also figured out why the motor does start on the primer, I opened the butterflies on the terminator had my dad hit the primer it shoots a straight stream straight across the intake and down the back to runners. I think this could be apart of why I cant get it to start on the primer without kickback. I need a primer plus spray bar which I will have on there soon.
thank you guys for all the help ! If I have any more issues I will go back to the drawing board with all the input from you.
Today while racing it started right up everytime with no issues all day, best starting I've ever had with injection started like a carb. I had no idea the starter in there wasnt meant for it, its a starter I've used several times in the past.
I also figured out why the motor does start on the primer, I opened the butterflies on the terminator had my dad hit the primer it shoots a straight stream straight across the intake and down the back to runners. I think this could be apart of why I cant get it to start on the primer without kickback. I need a primer plus spray bar which I will have on there soon.
thank you guys for all the help ! If I have any more issues I will go back to the drawing board with all the input from you.
06-07-2008, 11:13 PM
#25
Senior Member
RACING JUNKIE
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,137
Friend of mine runs a terminater and they used to have their primer tapped right into the intake...no spray bar. They just had a solenoid and a flow control valve. worked ok...he does have a spray bar now but the other deal did work.
07-01-2008, 04:57 AM
#26
Junior Member
SHOW GUEST
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1
Starter Problems
A few thoughts on your problem.
1. Always buy the best starter you can afford. I use the Powermaster
that is recommended for Pro Stock/Comp use. I hated to spend
the big bucks, but now my spare starter is a paperweight.
2. Never...never, buy a cheap flexplate.
3. Since you're using a MSD 7AL-3, make sure you have "zero degree" chips in any of the unused retard positions on the box. When I FINALLY
realized I didn't have them in mine, starter problems went away.
Hope this helps...
1. Always buy the best starter you can afford. I use the Powermaster
that is recommended for Pro Stock/Comp use. I hated to spend
the big bucks, but now my spare starter is a paperweight.
2. Never...never, buy a cheap flexplate.
3. Since you're using a MSD 7AL-3, make sure you have "zero degree" chips in any of the unused retard positions on the box. When I FINALLY
realized I didn't have them in mine, starter problems went away.
Hope this helps...
07-02-2008, 09:27 AM
#27
Senior Member
MASTER BUILDER
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 185
Originally Posted by johnracer
I see your point. Perhaps "need" wasn't the right term. If the ditributor doesn't require turning to nail the timing you want, then that'll work. But if you have to turn the distributor your rotor phasing will be off. I'm not "The Professor", but I'll do my best to explain.
First are production tolerances. All mass producers have them. Basically the relationship between the reluctor and the distributor shaft, between the distributor and the rotor, and between the distributor and cap, could all be slightly off. Let's assume that each one was off 2 degrees retarded. That's probably an extreme and unlikely example by the way. Now if you set it up the way you decribed, you'll end up moving the distributor to set timing, and the rotor will be out of phase 6 degrees retarded with the post in the cap. To further complicate matters, all of MSD's timing controls, including the 7al3, retard the timing about 4 degrees just by hooking them up, not activating them. That throws your rotor phasing off another 2 degrees retarded for a total of 8.
Now you throw in a 25 degree start retard and your rotor phasing is off another 12.5 degrees for a total of 20.5 degrees retarded. At this point, it might be easier for the spark to jump to the next post instead of the intended one and bang! It kicks back as if the timing was really advanced.
Sorry for the long post, but I couldn't think of a way to explain it any shorter.
Later,Johnny
First are production tolerances. All mass producers have them. Basically the relationship between the reluctor and the distributor shaft, between the distributor and the rotor, and between the distributor and cap, could all be slightly off. Let's assume that each one was off 2 degrees retarded. That's probably an extreme and unlikely example by the way. Now if you set it up the way you decribed, you'll end up moving the distributor to set timing, and the rotor will be out of phase 6 degrees retarded with the post in the cap. To further complicate matters, all of MSD's timing controls, including the 7al3, retard the timing about 4 degrees just by hooking them up, not activating them. That throws your rotor phasing off another 2 degrees retarded for a total of 8.
Now you throw in a 25 degree start retard and your rotor phasing is off another 12.5 degrees for a total of 20.5 degrees retarded. At this point, it might be easier for the spark to jump to the next post instead of the intended one and bang! It kicks back as if the timing was really advanced.
Sorry for the long post, but I couldn't think of a way to explain it any shorter.
Later,Johnny
Good explanation Johnny, But the only way to set rotor phase is with a hole in the cap and a white line on the rotor with it running and using a timing lite...
Most of us have an extra cap in out tool box so drill a 1/2 inch hole in it between the coil lug and #1 on the cap. Start it up and hook up your timing lite and see it it's off and you may be surprised how far it is off... :shock: Move the dist till it's right on
07-02-2008, 11:00 AM
#28
Senior Member
DYNO OPERATOR
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Rifle Colorado
Posts: 585
I'll do that! I have a spare MSD cap, but the RM 522 I bought this spring came with a Mallory dist so I can't right now. When I replace it I will though......it'd be neat to compare the results with the way I've done it in the past.
Johnny
Johnny
07-04-2008, 07:19 AM
#29
Senior Member
RACING JUNKIE
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Coldwater, MI
Posts: 2,998
Re: Starter Problems
Originally Posted by MDSCars
A few thoughts on your problem.
1. Always buy the best starter you can afford. I use the Powermaster
that is recommended for Pro Stock/Comp use. I hated to spend
the big bucks, but now my spare starter is a paperweight.
2. Never...never, buy a cheap flexplate.
3. Since you're using a MSD 7AL-3, make sure you have "zero degree" chips in any of the unused retard positions on the box. When I FINALLY
realized I didn't have them in mine, starter problems went away.
Hope this helps...
1. Always buy the best starter you can afford. I use the Powermaster
that is recommended for Pro Stock/Comp use. I hated to spend
the big bucks, but now my spare starter is a paperweight.
2. Never...never, buy a cheap flexplate.
3. Since you're using a MSD 7AL-3, make sure you have "zero degree" chips in any of the unused retard positions on the box. When I FINALLY
realized I didn't have them in mine, starter problems went away.
Hope this helps...
I wish buying the best starter always worked, I have to pricey Super Tiltons that just down right suck. I buy this "off brand" starter from local guy and it starts awesome. $140.00 out the door for it. The thing he did tell me is take the big name starters apart and take this no name apart you'll see no difference. Been down the road with the good flexplate jw wheel did the samething the TCI cheaper ones did. I agree on the 7al3, the other thing is dont use the start retard on the al3 25 degrees is way to much to pull out.
The starter in this case fixed mine, has been great for a month. I suspected the optima battery to be no good also and I was correct so it got a new Napa Orbital battery this week.
I still do not like the fact that it drags the volts down to 10 when cranking but maybe hooking up the 10 degree starter saver will fix that.
07-21-2008, 07:29 PM
#30
Senior Member
RACING JUNKIE
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Montvale, VA
Posts: 1,431
I know what you mean about high $$starters .I had a "Tuff Stuff" starter that I bought for like 100 bucks 5 years ago.It broke,so I bought a Powermaster.Not real high dollar,but $275 is expensive for my budget.POS Powermaster doen't start near as good as my "junkie" starter :evil: .It was bad enough that I put a starter saver on it,just to help out.BTW,those starter savers are sweet!!!Work really well.Just don't let your mag wire(purple and violet cable) get near the output wires on it.Bleed over is pretty bad,unless you got a sheilded cable.Just letting you know :wink:
