looking for advice building large cubic inch sbc
10-12-2007, 06:25 AM
#21
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Originally Posted by edvancedengines
Ok' I wish you luck.
Why in the world ?
You want big cube SB and buy a smaller than factory crank?
Ed
Just ordered the 3.625 stroke compstar crank myself. Wish me luck!
You want big cube SB and buy a smaller than factory crank?
Ed
10-12-2007, 06:39 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by Pwmax
My advice, first off, listen to what Ed said, if you use a 400 block. With that said, I would use a Dart 9.325 spread pan rain, raised cam block, and build a 434, or 440 or, with a 4inch crank, or use a 4.125 crank for 447 inches, or 454 inches with the 4.185 bore. This block eliminates all the negatives, to a stroker crank in a stock 9 inch block. Way easier to clearance the pan rails area, just needs a litte touch up for the rod bolts, the cam is up out of the way, and, get the BBC cam journal block while your at it, that eliminates the issue of cam to rod interfearance, and the extra deck height, allows for a 6.2 or 6.250 rod, whith a good ring stack on the piston. Plus, in my opinion, stock 400 blocks are junk. Unless you fill them to the bottom of the water pump holes, plug the big deck holes, put billet caps on all 5 mains, they are an eggshell for big power. For a mild street or bracket engine, they work fine, using the stock stroke, and 5.7 length rods, they can be brutal street/strip engines, but, definately have their limits
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
And going with a spread pan rail and raised cam tunnel allows you to go to a BBC cam tunnel or 50MM roller cam bearings, Using those small base circle cam allows for cam twist and more radical valve action over a bigger base circle cams which allow for smoother valve action.
One other point is the better blocks have proven to make much better horse power of a OEM blocks as find cam tunnel placement and lifter bore placement out up to .025 and if you have lifter bores off up to .025 and if your using a roller cam, Roller cams and roller lifters work on exact center lines and if a lifter bore is off from intake to exhaust it changes the seat timing events a ton now times that by 16 lifters.
Now add to the equation cam tunnel placement as we have seen them off up to .014 from blue print.
Joe Sherman went form a 400 block to a Dart or World block with the same components and saw a 40 horse gain over using a stock block.
After what we have seen over the years using a 4 inch stroke crank really requires a good soild foundation.
It all biols down to what you can really afford.
At our shop if a customer wanted to build this type of engine and wanted to use a stock block we would just pass on that job as I would not feel comfortable using a stock block for that much cubic inch.
10-12-2007, 06:45 PM
#23
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I built a 421sbc from a world products motown block!!! 3.875 crank fell into place,NO GRINDING. EAGLE makes a good crank for 499.99,my cost, retail for 599.99 its a good piece, especially if street car, Ive raced it to 8000,all season NO PROBLEMS now I want to build a 472!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Good luck try it its fun, get good advice fromm good people and have fun !!! David.
10-13-2007, 07:01 AM
#24
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That is the way to do it. When using the stock ht cam I think the best all around stroker combo is revolving around the 3.875 stroke. Anything bigger is asking for more fitment issues and more block cutting and camshaft clearance problems etc. I did one 4 inch stroke in a stock blcok at 440 cu in several years ago and I would not do it again, unless someone paid me a ton of money.
Ed
Ed
10-14-2007, 04:30 PM
#25
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I am not looking for a big CI SB. What I intend is (now that I've got me 406 with 3.75 stroke crank) using the 3.625 stroke crank when it comes time to freshen my 400 block(s) and they would be above the 406 we are restricted to. I'm spending an absolute mint on block machine work and don't want to have to get a new block everytime I need a re-build. But I am going to save for a motown cast block when it comes time to replace one of the 400s I have now.
As for GM 400s being junk, I've heard quite a bit that puts that argument on pause, for me at least. And I've decided not to fill my blocks, there are alot of downsides to that for oval track racing. I am, however, having the steam jackets blocked, on the advice of a machine shop doing some of my work.
I'm more than a little excited to see how the 393 does compared with the 406!
As for GM 400s being junk, I've heard quite a bit that puts that argument on pause, for me at least. And I've decided not to fill my blocks, there are alot of downsides to that for oval track racing. I am, however, having the steam jackets blocked, on the advice of a machine shop doing some of my work.
I'm more than a little excited to see how the 393 does compared with the 406!
10-17-2007, 04:08 AM
#26
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I think it will do well. I built my 379ci using a 3.50 stroke crank 6" rods in a factory 2-bolt block and ran better than alot of 406's that i have seen in my area. But now I am going to build a 408 this winter most likely..need more Cubic inches for the heads I have..
10-19-2007, 01:23 AM
#27
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[quote="hink"]
My thoughts as well as we have seen to many 400 blocks scraped after a hard season of running due to cracking.
And going with a spread pan rail and raised cam tunnel allows you to go to a BBC cam tunnel or 50MM roller cam bearings, Using those small base circle cam allows for cam twist and more radical valve action over a bigger base circle cams which allow for smoother valve action.
One other point is the better blocks have proven to make much better horse power of a OEM blocks as find cam tunnel placement and lifter bore placement out up to .025 and if you have lifter bores off up to .025 and if your using a roller cam, Roller cams and roller lifters work on exact center lines and if a lifter bore is off from intake to exhaust it changes the seat timing events a ton now times that by 16 lifters.
Now add to the equation cam tunnel placement as we have seen them off up to .014 from blue print.
Joe Sherman went form a 400 block to a Dart or World block with the same components and saw a 40 horse gain over using a stock block.
After what we have seen over the years using a 4 inch stroke crank really requires a good soild foundation.
It all biols down to what you can really afford.
At our shop if a customer wanted to build this type of engine and wanted to use a stock block we would just pass on that job as I would not feel comfortable using a stock block for that much cubic inch.[/quot
First of all i donot want to start a pissing contest on this subject.
(QUOTE)
Carl Please educate me on this one, (first i appreciate your opinion), but i donot agree with a lot of things you said.
As far as the lifter bores being off .025, that's not a problem lineral, the cam lobes are 1/2" to 5/8" wide the lifter rollers are 5/16" wide with 1/16" radius, not a problem. If the lifter bores are off too the c/l of the blk. .025 that would amount to .001 to .004 difference in lift per lifter, totally ajustable. I personally have a 377" motor with 2 bolt mains, that runs 5.15 in a 1850lb dragster without driver, it runs 6.52 in a 3250lb car. we also have 2 other motors that are 434" 2 blt. motors 1 runs 4.88 in the same dragster and the other runs 5.80's in a door car @2800lbs. My 377" motor when we installed it in the dragster would not hold water. we found it to have a 4" crack seperating the deck from the passenger side of the blk. We then ran it about a doz. passes dry, even ran it at super Chevy where we broke out with a 5.13 to a 5.15 dial. I then pulled it out of the Dragster and without even removing the heads v'ed out the crack and tig welded it with nirod, it no longer leaks and has about 100 passes on it and it still runs today. Bullit engines in Denver builds 900 HP 406's every day with 18* heads and there's only 10 to 25 HP between the dart or motown blks. and th stock 400 blks. If i had the option i would buy a doz. stock blks. Not only that but we donot put 4 blt. splayed caps or any of the other expensive mods to the blk, but we only run 2 blt blks and use a main cap girdle and run 7500RPM all day long, we just re'ups the engine in the dragster after 200 plus passes, the bearings looked brand new, but now granted it only runs 4.80's @138mph, but i think that's o'k with a wet sump and no vacuum pump.
one thing i should add is that we sonic test the blks before boring them and put the bores in the center for the most meat in the bores.
Please don't be pissed, but that's what we do and it works for us.
JMO,
Zip.
Originally Posted by Pwmax
My advice, first off, listen to what Ed said, if you use a 400 block. With that said, I would use a Dart 9.325 spread pan rain, raised cam block, and build a 434, or 440 or, with a 4inch crank, or use a 4.125 crank for 447 inches, or 454 inches with the 4.185 bore. This block eliminates all the negatives, to a stroker crank in a stock 9 inch block. Way easier to clearance the pan rails area, just needs a litte touch up for the rod bolts, the cam is up out of the way, and, get the BBC cam journal block while your at it, that eliminates the issue of cam to rod interfearance, and the extra deck height, allows for a 6.2 or 6.250 rod, whith a good ring stack on the piston. Plus, in my opinion, stock 400 blocks are junk. Unless you fill them to the bottom of the water pump holes, plug the big deck holes, put billet caps on all 5 mains, they are an eggshell for big power. For a mild street or bracket engine, they work fine, using the stock stroke, and 5.7 length rods, they can be brutal street/strip engines, but, definately have their limits
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
And going with a spread pan rail and raised cam tunnel allows you to go to a BBC cam tunnel or 50MM roller cam bearings, Using those small base circle cam allows for cam twist and more radical valve action over a bigger base circle cams which allow for smoother valve action.
One other point is the better blocks have proven to make much better horse power of a OEM blocks as find cam tunnel placement and lifter bore placement out up to .025 and if you have lifter bores off up to .025 and if your using a roller cam, Roller cams and roller lifters work on exact center lines and if a lifter bore is off from intake to exhaust it changes the seat timing events a ton now times that by 16 lifters.
Now add to the equation cam tunnel placement as we have seen them off up to .014 from blue print.
Joe Sherman went form a 400 block to a Dart or World block with the same components and saw a 40 horse gain over using a stock block.
After what we have seen over the years using a 4 inch stroke crank really requires a good soild foundation.
It all biols down to what you can really afford.
At our shop if a customer wanted to build this type of engine and wanted to use a stock block we would just pass on that job as I would not feel comfortable using a stock block for that much cubic inch.[/quot
First of all i donot want to start a pissing contest on this subject.
(QUOTE)
Carl Please educate me on this one, (first i appreciate your opinion), but i donot agree with a lot of things you said.
As far as the lifter bores being off .025, that's not a problem lineral, the cam lobes are 1/2" to 5/8" wide the lifter rollers are 5/16" wide with 1/16" radius, not a problem. If the lifter bores are off too the c/l of the blk. .025 that would amount to .001 to .004 difference in lift per lifter, totally ajustable. I personally have a 377" motor with 2 bolt mains, that runs 5.15 in a 1850lb dragster without driver, it runs 6.52 in a 3250lb car. we also have 2 other motors that are 434" 2 blt. motors 1 runs 4.88 in the same dragster and the other runs 5.80's in a door car @2800lbs. My 377" motor when we installed it in the dragster would not hold water. we found it to have a 4" crack seperating the deck from the passenger side of the blk. We then ran it about a doz. passes dry, even ran it at super Chevy where we broke out with a 5.13 to a 5.15 dial. I then pulled it out of the Dragster and without even removing the heads v'ed out the crack and tig welded it with nirod, it no longer leaks and has about 100 passes on it and it still runs today. Bullit engines in Denver builds 900 HP 406's every day with 18* heads and there's only 10 to 25 HP between the dart or motown blks. and th stock 400 blks. If i had the option i would buy a doz. stock blks. Not only that but we donot put 4 blt. splayed caps or any of the other expensive mods to the blk, but we only run 2 blt blks and use a main cap girdle and run 7500RPM all day long, we just re'ups the engine in the dragster after 200 plus passes, the bearings looked brand new, but now granted it only runs 4.80's @138mph, but i think that's o'k with a wet sump and no vacuum pump.
one thing i should add is that we sonic test the blks before boring them and put the bores in the center for the most meat in the bores.
Please don't be pissed, but that's what we do and it works for us.
JMO,
Zip.
10-19-2007, 07:36 AM
#28
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Zip,
Tell me where to get the main cap girdle for the 400 2 bolt caps?
I have two here now that I need them for. Also will adding the girdle negatively affect the align hone?
Ed
Tell me where to get the main cap girdle for the 400 2 bolt caps?
I have two here now that I need them for. Also will adding the girdle negatively affect the align hone?
Ed
10-19-2007, 09:15 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by edvancedengines
Zip,
Tell me where to get the main cap girdle for the 400 2 bolt caps?
I have two here now that I need them for. Also will adding the girdle negatively affect the align hone?
Ed
Tell me where to get the main cap girdle for the 400 2 bolt caps?
I have two here now that I need them for. Also will adding the girdle negatively affect the align hone?
Ed
I can help you on where to find them, but i donot use the 5140 studs that come with them, i use a better grade stud.
You have a PM,
Zip.
10-19-2007, 02:20 PM
#30
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[quote="zipper06"]
My thoughts as well as we have seen to many 400 blocks scraped after a hard season of running due to cracking.
And going with a spread pan rail and raised cam tunnel allows you to go to a BBC cam tunnel or 50MM roller cam bearings, Using those small base circle cam allows for cam twist and more radical valve action over a bigger base circle cams which allow for smoother valve action.
One other point is the better blocks have proven to make much better horse power of a OEM blocks as find cam tunnel placement and lifter bore placement out up to .025 and if you have lifter bores off up to .025 and if your using a roller cam, Roller cams and roller lifters work on exact center lines and if a lifter bore is off from intake to exhaust it changes the seat timing events a ton now times that by 16 lifters.
Now add to the equation cam tunnel placement as we have seen them off up to .014 from blue print.
Joe Sherman went form a 400 block to a Dart or World block with the same components and saw a 40 horse gain over using a stock block.
After what we have seen over the years using a 4 inch stroke crank really requires a good soild foundation.
It all biols down to what you can really afford.
At our shop if a customer wanted to build this type of engine and wanted to use a stock block we would just pass on that job as I would not feel comfortable using a stock block for that much cubic inch.[/quot
First of all i donot want to start a pissing contest on this subject.
(QUOTE)
Carl Please educate me on this one, (first i appreciate your opinion), but i donot agree with a lot of things you said.
As far as the lifter bores being off .025, that's not a problem lineral, the cam lobes are 1/2" to 5/8" wide the lifter rollers are 5/16" wide with 1/16" radius, not a problem. If the lifter bores are off too the c/l of the blk. .025 that would amount to .001 to .004 difference in lift per lifter, totally ajustable. I personally have a 377" motor with 2 bolt mains, that runs 5.15 in a 1850lb dragster without driver, it runs 6.52 in a 3250lb car. we also have 2 other motors that are 434" 2 blt. motors 1 runs 4.88 in the same dragster and the other runs 5.80's in a door car @2800lbs. My 377" motor when we installed it in the dragster would not hold water. we found it to have a 4" crack seperating the deck from the passenger side of the blk. We then ran it about a doz. passes dry, even ran it at super Chevy where we broke out with a 5.13 to a 5.15 dial. I then pulled it out of the Dragster and without even removing the heads v'ed out the crack and tig welded it with nirod, it no longer leaks and has about 100 passes on it and it still runs today. Bullit engines in Denver builds 900 HP 406's every day with 18* heads and there's only 10 to 25 HP between the dart or motown blks. and th stock 400 blks. If i had the option i would buy a doz. stock blks. Not only that but we donot put 4 blt. splayed caps or any of the other expensive mods to the blk, but we only run 2 blt blks and use a main cap girdle and run 7500RPM all day long, we just re'ups the engine in the dragster after 200 plus passes, the bearings looked brand new, but now granted it only runs 4.80's @138mph, but i think that's o'k with a wet sump and no vacuum pump.
one thing i should add is that we sonic test the blks before boring them and put the bores in the center for the most meat in the bores.
Please don't be pissed, but that's what we do and it works for us.
JMO,
Zip.
Now to compare apples to apples here do you build performance engines for a living and have a complete machine shop to do the work???
Now from what I have seen if a lifter bore is off .025 from intake to a exhaust not front to rear it does change the seat timing a lot depending on the direction and if its picking up onthe ramp earlier its going to leave earlier and if its in the other direction it will pick up later and leave later.
And we feel at our shop that if the lifter bores are off up to .025 it does change things alot.
Now if you take a roller lifter and its starting up on the ramp and move the lifter .025 it sure going to be more then .001 to .004 differance depending on how aggressive the ramp is.
And moving cylinders from intake to exhaust is not recomended as that changes the center line of the rod a piston compared to center line of the crank, Now the piston is at a different height in the cylinder both sides of the stroke.
And using splayed caps on a block is much better as with splayed caps its tying in the pan rails into the webbing making for a much stronger peice.
I have seen most guys that don't like splayed caps don't have the ability
to put them on like cutting the registers, line boring, line honing ETC.
I really hope your are kidding about lifter bores that off .025 only changes things about .001 to .004 and 2 bolt caps are stronger then a splayed caps and moving cylinders HMMM What type of machine shop do you guys run ( IF ANY)
Originally Posted by hink
Originally Posted by Pwmax
My advice, first off, listen to what Ed said, if you use a 400 block. With that said, I would use a Dart 9.325 spread pan rain, raised cam block, and build a 434, or 440 or, with a 4inch crank, or use a 4.125 crank for 447 inches, or 454 inches with the 4.185 bore. This block eliminates all the negatives, to a stroker crank in a stock 9 inch block. Way easier to clearance the pan rails area, just needs a litte touch up for the rod bolts, the cam is up out of the way, and, get the BBC cam journal block while your at it, that eliminates the issue of cam to rod interfearance, and the extra deck height, allows for a 6.2 or 6.250 rod, whith a good ring stack on the piston. Plus, in my opinion, stock 400 blocks are junk. Unless you fill them to the bottom of the water pump holes, plug the big deck holes, put billet caps on all 5 mains, they are an eggshell for big power. For a mild street or bracket engine, they work fine, using the stock stroke, and 5.7 length rods, they can be brutal street/strip engines, but, definately have their limits
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
And going with a spread pan rail and raised cam tunnel allows you to go to a BBC cam tunnel or 50MM roller cam bearings, Using those small base circle cam allows for cam twist and more radical valve action over a bigger base circle cams which allow for smoother valve action.
One other point is the better blocks have proven to make much better horse power of a OEM blocks as find cam tunnel placement and lifter bore placement out up to .025 and if you have lifter bores off up to .025 and if your using a roller cam, Roller cams and roller lifters work on exact center lines and if a lifter bore is off from intake to exhaust it changes the seat timing events a ton now times that by 16 lifters.
Now add to the equation cam tunnel placement as we have seen them off up to .014 from blue print.
Joe Sherman went form a 400 block to a Dart or World block with the same components and saw a 40 horse gain over using a stock block.
After what we have seen over the years using a 4 inch stroke crank really requires a good soild foundation.
It all biols down to what you can really afford.
At our shop if a customer wanted to build this type of engine and wanted to use a stock block we would just pass on that job as I would not feel comfortable using a stock block for that much cubic inch.[/quot
First of all i donot want to start a pissing contest on this subject.
(QUOTE)
Carl Please educate me on this one, (first i appreciate your opinion), but i donot agree with a lot of things you said.
As far as the lifter bores being off .025, that's not a problem lineral, the cam lobes are 1/2" to 5/8" wide the lifter rollers are 5/16" wide with 1/16" radius, not a problem. If the lifter bores are off too the c/l of the blk. .025 that would amount to .001 to .004 difference in lift per lifter, totally ajustable. I personally have a 377" motor with 2 bolt mains, that runs 5.15 in a 1850lb dragster without driver, it runs 6.52 in a 3250lb car. we also have 2 other motors that are 434" 2 blt. motors 1 runs 4.88 in the same dragster and the other runs 5.80's in a door car @2800lbs. My 377" motor when we installed it in the dragster would not hold water. we found it to have a 4" crack seperating the deck from the passenger side of the blk. We then ran it about a doz. passes dry, even ran it at super Chevy where we broke out with a 5.13 to a 5.15 dial. I then pulled it out of the Dragster and without even removing the heads v'ed out the crack and tig welded it with nirod, it no longer leaks and has about 100 passes on it and it still runs today. Bullit engines in Denver builds 900 HP 406's every day with 18* heads and there's only 10 to 25 HP between the dart or motown blks. and th stock 400 blks. If i had the option i would buy a doz. stock blks. Not only that but we donot put 4 blt. splayed caps or any of the other expensive mods to the blk, but we only run 2 blt blks and use a main cap girdle and run 7500RPM all day long, we just re'ups the engine in the dragster after 200 plus passes, the bearings looked brand new, but now granted it only runs 4.80's @138mph, but i think that's o'k with a wet sump and no vacuum pump.
one thing i should add is that we sonic test the blks before boring them and put the bores in the center for the most meat in the bores.
Please don't be pissed, but that's what we do and it works for us.
JMO,
Zip.
Now from what I have seen if a lifter bore is off .025 from intake to a exhaust not front to rear it does change the seat timing a lot depending on the direction and if its picking up onthe ramp earlier its going to leave earlier and if its in the other direction it will pick up later and leave later.
And we feel at our shop that if the lifter bores are off up to .025 it does change things alot.
Now if you take a roller lifter and its starting up on the ramp and move the lifter .025 it sure going to be more then .001 to .004 differance depending on how aggressive the ramp is.
And moving cylinders from intake to exhaust is not recomended as that changes the center line of the rod a piston compared to center line of the crank, Now the piston is at a different height in the cylinder both sides of the stroke.
And using splayed caps on a block is much better as with splayed caps its tying in the pan rails into the webbing making for a much stronger peice.
I have seen most guys that don't like splayed caps don't have the ability
to put them on like cutting the registers, line boring, line honing ETC.
I really hope your are kidding about lifter bores that off .025 only changes things about .001 to .004 and 2 bolt caps are stronger then a splayed caps and moving cylinders HMMM What type of machine shop do you guys run ( IF ANY)