Ron's Terminator - Need help!
09-25-2010, 01:21 PM
#1
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Red Deer, AB Canada
Posts: 213
Ron's Terminator - Need help!
I put a 1060 Ron's terminator on my 598 BBC this spring and I have had nothing but grief trying to get it set up properly. I am running an Enderle 80A-1 pump (supposedly 7.0 GPM) and at idle (1600 RPM) it is putting out about 20 psi. At 7000 RPM it is putting out about 160 psi.
I have tried nearly every pill (60 to 100) and nozzle (37 to 39) combination I have and the car always has the same problem.
I roll through the water box and do my burnout at 6000 RPM, when I release the throttle, the car stalls. I can feather the throttle to keep it running and back up and stage. As soon as I hit the transbrake (the starting line enhancer takes over, drops the accelerator to the floor and keep the engine at an idle) I have no throttle control at this time because of the SLE and the car stalls. I have put it up on the jack stands in the pits and it idles fine until I put the engine under load (hold the brake and put it in gear), then it stalls. I sent the pump out to be flow tested and i'm waiting for the results. Maybe the pump is weak at low RPMs? The drive ratio on the pump is 2:1 (half as fast as the crank).
I have checked the leakdown on the barrel vlave and it's 28%.
I have sent all the engine specs to both Ron Munroe (who didn't get back to me) and the tech guys at Ron's Fuel. I have followed their recommendations and the results are the same. I have changed all hoses and fittings. My suction is 12 AN and my discharge is 8 AN. I have tried it with and without a high speed by-pass set for 50 psi. Results are the same. At the top end, when I take my foot out of it, it stalls.
Does anybody have any ideas? I am baffled! Thanks.
One other question:
I know Hilborn pills and Ron's pills are the same. Can I get Ron's injection nozzles from any other manufacturer? I live in Canada and Ron's won't ship USPS, only UPS which charges a huge brokerage fee. Also Ron's charges an "international surcharge" of $25 to each order. They shipped a small package to me (set of jets, some pills and a high speed bypass) and the shipping came to over $70!!
I have tried nearly every pill (60 to 100) and nozzle (37 to 39) combination I have and the car always has the same problem.
I roll through the water box and do my burnout at 6000 RPM, when I release the throttle, the car stalls. I can feather the throttle to keep it running and back up and stage. As soon as I hit the transbrake (the starting line enhancer takes over, drops the accelerator to the floor and keep the engine at an idle) I have no throttle control at this time because of the SLE and the car stalls. I have put it up on the jack stands in the pits and it idles fine until I put the engine under load (hold the brake and put it in gear), then it stalls. I sent the pump out to be flow tested and i'm waiting for the results. Maybe the pump is weak at low RPMs? The drive ratio on the pump is 2:1 (half as fast as the crank).
I have checked the leakdown on the barrel vlave and it's 28%.
I have sent all the engine specs to both Ron Munroe (who didn't get back to me) and the tech guys at Ron's Fuel. I have followed their recommendations and the results are the same. I have changed all hoses and fittings. My suction is 12 AN and my discharge is 8 AN. I have tried it with and without a high speed by-pass set for 50 psi. Results are the same. At the top end, when I take my foot out of it, it stalls.
Does anybody have any ideas? I am baffled! Thanks.
One other question:
I know Hilborn pills and Ron's pills are the same. Can I get Ron's injection nozzles from any other manufacturer? I live in Canada and Ron's won't ship USPS, only UPS which charges a huge brokerage fee. Also Ron's charges an "international surcharge" of $25 to each order. They shipped a small package to me (set of jets, some pills and a high speed bypass) and the shipping came to over $70!!
09-25-2010, 02:24 PM
#2
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: La.
Posts: 2,890
Couple of things, is your pump level or below bottom of the fuel cell? 20 lbs at idle isn't considered low, it's about average. The #39 nozzles should be big enouh for the application. One of the problems is that the leakdown is too high, it should be 20/24%, set the airgap on the butterflys at .005. With -1 pump, you're going to need a larger return pill between .110 and .140. i would definately run a highspeed leanout with your pump pressure, set it at 65 lbs. With the above settings it should idle good and have good throttle response.
I just setup a 3 3/4" toilet bowl i think they are 1140 cfm, it likes 22% leakdown and .065/.070 pill with a (0) pump.
About shipping to Canada, go to ebay motors, and put in hilborn injection, there are a number of sellers on there selling pillls and i sure will ship to Canada, via USPS.
Zip.
I just setup a 3 3/4" toilet bowl i think they are 1140 cfm, it likes 22% leakdown and .065/.070 pill with a (0) pump.
About shipping to Canada, go to ebay motors, and put in hilborn injection, there are a number of sellers on there selling pillls and i sure will ship to Canada, via USPS.
Zip.
09-25-2010, 02:35 PM
#3
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 116
Sound like an idle check issue, Rons set's theirs up pretty low in the PSI range, mainly for just making it easier to get fired. Any Toilet or Terminator I set up gets converted over to a Kinsler barrel valve with an external idle check.
How sure are you of the finish line pressure? If it's on a tattle-tale gauge that comes off the pump or barrel valve it's going to be spike pressure and not finish line pressure. Reading at the nozzle is best.
An educated guess would put fuel pressure at 7000RPM closer to 100PSI.
Nobody else makes the rons style drop in jets. You could change the nozzle bodies over to enderle and just use their nozzles. Cheaper and much easier to source.
How sure are you of the finish line pressure? If it's on a tattle-tale gauge that comes off the pump or barrel valve it's going to be spike pressure and not finish line pressure. Reading at the nozzle is best.
An educated guess would put fuel pressure at 7000RPM closer to 100PSI.
Nobody else makes the rons style drop in jets. You could change the nozzle bodies over to enderle and just use their nozzles. Cheaper and much easier to source.
09-25-2010, 05:49 PM
#4
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: La.
Posts: 2,890
X 2 Ron sets his idle check valve at 3 lb's
Also the nozzles as mentioned in the above post is absolutely correct, you can buy Enderle nozzles for $85.00 a set, it would cost you more than that to change the dropin jets and they are rated by the size in thousands just as rons are. Ex. Rons .039 equals Enderle .039 nozzzle, Hilborn uses a pressure measured system for sizing the nozzles and cost more than twice the cost of Enderle nozzles.
JMO
Zip.
Also the nozzles as mentioned in the above post is absolutely correct, you can buy Enderle nozzles for $85.00 a set, it would cost you more than that to change the dropin jets and they are rated by the size in thousands just as rons are. Ex. Rons .039 equals Enderle .039 nozzzle, Hilborn uses a pressure measured system for sizing the nozzles and cost more than twice the cost of Enderle nozzles.
JMO
Zip.
09-26-2010, 05:29 AM
#5
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Coldwater, MI
Posts: 2,998
the idle check valve (start aide some call it) is easy to look and see if its stuck. Are You 100% sure the fuel on/off lever (spool) is going 100% open when you push in the lever from the drivers compartment ?
There is a slot on the end of this shaft, can you tell me when the lever is all the way out, what way the slot is, and when you push it in where the slot is at ? Explain via time/clock for me. Also has anyone ever had this fuel shutoff spool out of the barrel valve for anything ?
28% leak down it fine, How about your blade gap where is this sat at ? Injection isnt rocket science I am sure this will be something very simple. it should have a 39 nozzel and around a 80-90 pill.
Inlet to BV should be a 6an and return should be also. Forget the high speed until you get the setup right then start working on it.
the SLE, have you tried to just take it off and see what it does without it ?
There is a slot on the end of this shaft, can you tell me when the lever is all the way out, what way the slot is, and when you push it in where the slot is at ? Explain via time/clock for me. Also has anyone ever had this fuel shutoff spool out of the barrel valve for anything ?
28% leak down it fine, How about your blade gap where is this sat at ? Injection isnt rocket science I am sure this will be something very simple. it should have a 39 nozzel and around a 80-90 pill.
Inlet to BV should be a 6an and return should be also. Forget the high speed until you get the setup right then start working on it.
the SLE, have you tried to just take it off and see what it does without it ?
09-26-2010, 06:31 AM
#6
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Red Deer, AB Canada
Posts: 213
The first thing I should mention is that I am running alcohol.
Ron set my butterflies at 0.008" and the BV leakdown at 22%. I have left the butterflie alone but have increased the leakdown to 28%.
With a 90 pill, my plugs were showing a lean condition after the run.
My pump inlet port is about 2" above the suction outlet on the fuel tank. I fill the tank before every run, so the fuel level is well above the pump inlet.
I have a Racepak system which monitors the fuel pressure (it has shown fuel pressures as hiogh as 170 psi) plus I have a gauge in the dash. The sensors are located immediately before the BV on the inlet line.
Where is the idle check valve located?
The engine was new this spring and when I ran it on the dyno, the egt and HP / torque curves were indiacting the engine wanted more fuel. At the time I had in it, the biggest jets I had (38's) and the smallest pill (60).
When the fuel shut off is closed, the slot on the barrel valve is at 3:00 and 9:00 and when it is fully open, the slot is at 12:00 and 6:00. I have checked this using air pressure.
My return line is 6 AN. There are separate return lines on both the high speed and the BV. These are the only two return lines I have installed.
I have tried removing the high speed bypass and I still have the stalling problems.
When I plug off the high speed bypass, does all the fuel from the pump go to the BV? There is no other return line from the pump to the tank other than the high speed bypass line. Would all the fuel going to the BV create a very rich condition?
Ron set my butterflies at 0.008" and the BV leakdown at 22%. I have left the butterflie alone but have increased the leakdown to 28%.
With a 90 pill, my plugs were showing a lean condition after the run.
My pump inlet port is about 2" above the suction outlet on the fuel tank. I fill the tank before every run, so the fuel level is well above the pump inlet.
I have a Racepak system which monitors the fuel pressure (it has shown fuel pressures as hiogh as 170 psi) plus I have a gauge in the dash. The sensors are located immediately before the BV on the inlet line.
Where is the idle check valve located?
The engine was new this spring and when I ran it on the dyno, the egt and HP / torque curves were indiacting the engine wanted more fuel. At the time I had in it, the biggest jets I had (38's) and the smallest pill (60).
When the fuel shut off is closed, the slot on the barrel valve is at 3:00 and 9:00 and when it is fully open, the slot is at 12:00 and 6:00. I have checked this using air pressure.
My return line is 6 AN. There are separate return lines on both the high speed and the BV. These are the only two return lines I have installed.
I have tried removing the high speed bypass and I still have the stalling problems.
When I plug off the high speed bypass, does all the fuel from the pump go to the BV? There is no other return line from the pump to the tank other than the high speed bypass line. Would all the fuel going to the BV create a very rich condition?
