zipper06

iThis is not real, today i got a call from the very unhappy person who's pistons came apart. The engine/sht/blk builder told him he needed to buy 76CC heads at a cost of $1500.00 which would lower his static compression from 8.7 to 8.2. I laughed by butt off at this request. I steered him to Arais, but he choose to go to JE extreme duty -28 cc's which is o'k. I said DUH!!, 1500.00, what's wrong with going to Cosmetic .074 gaskets for a little over 200.00 and the ratio is the same 8.29 and save 1300.00 .
Am i wrong are some people just out there to rip people off, i never meant to get involved in this engine build but if some one didn't he would have to put his kids up for adoption and i'm too old to raise another family.

Zip.

PS, I also found out the the short blk builder set the top ring gaps at .024, Mahle recommends .035 for that piston. who's at fault here, never mind it's comming out of the custommers pocket.

Blue68Camaro

I thought they were made in australia?

zipper06

RHS, pro action castings are made in Australia/New Zealand but ProComp Electronics home office is in Australia, but they are primarily and import company, and the USA warehouse is in Ca. They also buy some american products, in fact i just bought a Griffin radiator from Procomp. Believe me the heads are Chinese castings. I've been a dealer for them for 3 yrs, and have about $4,000.00 of stock on hand, from rocker arms,4340 cranks,head and main studs,valve covers, rods,and the list goes on. I donot advertise theses products on RJ or ebay i only sell word of mouth.

Zip.

Robert1320

Too Bad for your buddy. Really sounds like
he has pick the wrong build. Or one that doesn't
know his (you know) from a hole in the groud.

billhendren

[quote="zipper06"]iThis is not real, today i got a call from the very unhappy person who's pistons came apart. The engine/sht/blk builder told him he needed to buy 76CC heads at a cost of $1500.00 which would lower his static compression from 8.7 to 8.2. I laughed by butt off at this request. I steered him to Arais, but he choose to go to JE extreme duty -28 cc's which is o'k. I said DUH!!, 1500.00, what's wrong with going to Cosmetic .074 gaskets for a little over 200.00 and the ratio is the same 8.29 and save 1300.00 .
Am i wrong are some people just out there to rip people off, i never meant to get involved in this engine build but if some one didn't he would have to put his kids up for adoption and i'm too old to raise another family.

And he got bent over again, we sell J-E extreme duty piston sets for $706.80 with pin.Send that guy my way,I would love to make a 100% profit on a sale.Bill

Pwmax

I really hate to ruffle feathers, but, I read thru the original post, and I guess I am having a hard time finding where there was a problem with the heads? I understand the other mis-matched parts, but from what I can see, the heads was not an issue?? Again, not to disagree, and I really don't want to hype up these Pro-Comp, Srtike Force, etc etc, what ever they are called by whatever warehouse is selling them. But, here are my findings on the small block chevy, and big block chevy heads.

The big block heads, I would be scared to use with anything with moderate and above spring pressure. There is very little "meat" for the stud. They use a helicoil in that spot, and, part of it sticks into the port. So, that means the 320's would be the only ones I would use, on milder stuff, if it was on the cheap. As the 360's are flat to big for any hydraulic roller, or solid cam engine, unless it was a big inch deal, but then, you wouldn't be buying the cheap heads

The small block chevy heads, are, as much as I hate to say it, a pretty darn nice head for the money. I have had 3 sets in the shop now, 2 of which were brought to me, to be used on engine builds, and ported. The casting, is actualy very nice. THere is no porosity issues, its quality, hard aluminumn, and, actualy, I know this will bug some guys, but, I think its a nicer casting than the older Pre-eliminator AFR line, lol. Sorry Afr guys. The seats, are obviously quality powdered metal, one source says they are sbi seats and guides. All I know, is they cut like rocks. So far, on 2 sets, the valve train worked out nice. The stud holes were straight, the pushrods didn't hit anywhere, everything lined up right, and it was a simple, as it should be, assembly. They flow ok too. WIth absolutely nothing done, as delivered, they won;t set any flow benches on fire, but, 245 and 170, isn;t bad, for how crude the bowl is, and how god awful the guide boss's are. THe intake guide boss is rediculously big. With a 5 minute per port blend job, they flow 262 and 180. The port is a bit under 200cc. I used a set on a mild street/mud truck type application, 383, hydraulic cam, pump gas, old style Perf. Rpm, and it made 460hp, and 480 ft/lbs. Another set, I was used on another, a bit more agressive street, occasional bracket race combo, pump gas, 250 at ,050, .600 lift hydraulic roller, victor jr, heads were ported moderatly, about 205cc, 2.02 valve still, and they moved 280cfm on the intake, and 220 on the exhaust. That engine made 515hp, and 502 ft/lbs.

I bought a set for a budget engine that I am building for my car, so I can get the car out next year, while I build my all aluminumn, 427 ls1 style carbed engine for my car, its a 73 Camaro. But, since I will have very little money in this engine, I said, I am going to get a set of those cheap heads, and really go after them, and see how they work. My developtmental port, goes 306cfm, with a 2.05 valve, at about 218cc. My bench is conservative too, at least compared to a couple other local shops, one of which, is about 9 more than mine, and another, that is about 20 more. I welded, and offset the pushrod, and am using a .150 offset Harland sharp stud rocker, I thought about getting some T&D sportsman .220 offsets, but, it wouldn;t make sense, to spend more on the rockers than the heads, and it will keep my budget engine a budget engine, which, you guys would sh*t if you knew how little I will have in it. 388 inches, Scat cast steel crank, Eagle H-beams, Speed Pro 2vr forged coated skirt flat tops, Power Bond SFI dampner, Comp roller lifters, custom solid roller, etc etc. I will have about $1200 in cash out of my pocket in it. Owning an engine shop, you "aquire" a lot of stuff over the years, for cheap or free, and, comsidering I can do all the machining, and balancing, porting, etc etc, myself, it doesn't add up. My goal is over 600 on pump gas. It should be going on the pump, in the next month or so, in the middle of moving shop locations, and been busy trying to get stuff done, so, I haven't been working on it much lately, but hopefully in the next month or so. Like I said, this isn't an add for these heads, I actualy wish I would have gotten some new Platimun Dart Pro-1's, and, they would have worked better, with a bunch less work, which, I will say one thing, the Pro-Comp/Strike force heads, need a TON of work to get them to the level I have mine.



Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

edvancedengines

Frank,
I believe the deal is or was this;
For the price, many guys have had decent results with those heads. But according to bad experiences becuase of dealing with many of these most professional head porters have seen things of negatives the average customer usually doesn't see or experience.

It is not the heads which had little to few errors in them where the problems were/are. IT is the ones which escaped with costly errors in them that began giving these the bad reputation. We have seen and if you check this at any heavy teck forum you will see some of the same problems were experienced by a variety of different users and head shops. On error that ate a buyer alive was no matter how hard he tried, the rocker arm would not line up even with the valve and pushrods in his engine. That error from the mfg cost the buyer a ton of money to get corrected becuase the rocker stud bosses were all in the wrong place. I magne fixing that little error. His other head was ok. It is well known that the castings are a thin casting. It is well known that the advertised flow numbers are bogus on anyone's bench. It is also well known that for the port flow they do have the port csa is huge in comparison.

The cylinder head Ghru like Curtis Boggs etc, have no financial reason to talk against these becasue it is money in the bank to have to fix them when the ones with the errors show up. There may not have been many but there were enough so that several different shops experienced repairing issues with them.

Ed

Pwmax

Ed, like I said, I didn't want to start an argument, and hype these things up. So far, and, to be honest, I don;t plan on recomending these heads, I will still try to push Dart and Brodix stuff, but, out of 3 sets, well, I should say 2, everything lined up, and worked out. I haven't mocked any valve train on mine yet, but as is usualy the case, I will end up with the crap set, lol. I have had poorly fitting valve trains, on the biggest name heads too, on occasion, and its no fun to try and make the stuff work, especially when your stuck with them, because they are ported already, and can't send them back. They really arent that thin, at least the deck thickness is as thick as a Pro-Topline, had a set in recently, an older set, that, I worked up, and, those were quite good, and there was a lot of meat everywhere else, and, they are fairly heavy, compared to some comparable heads. I didn;t sonic test any areas, but I used my highly accurate index finger/thumb measuring gauge,lol, and, there is no fear of burning thru anywhere. I consider myself a cylinder head guru as well, beings how I have been porting cylinder heads for going on 20 years, and have done cylinder heads from basicaly every auto manufacturer there is, foreign and domestic, motorcyles, 2 stroke stuff, atv and dirt bikes, factory castings, to big chiefs, and everything in between, I am not a 22 year old kid, fresh out of Hot Rod U, with 3 days of porting instruction. I have customers World wide, and have, like you, been quietly, building some of the highest quality, most powerful engines, dollar/dollar that a guy can buy.

We have full machining capabilities, in house, and can do every necessary machining operation that you need, in house. Line boring, line honing, have the full line of BHJ blueprinting fixtures, except for a couple, but, we borrow the ones we don't have, if necessary, and visa versa, with a good friend who also has a shop, PCD/CBN surfacing, for mirror finishes, if necessary, Boring, tq plate honing, 2 bridgeports, gas porting, fly cutting, balancing, mig/tig, lathe, Sunnen seat and guide machine, rod work, flow bench, splayed cap instalation, etc etc etc. There are a lot of "wanna be" engine assemblers, that work out of their garage, and call themselves engine shops, not here. So, I can evaluate stuff, as good as the next guy. I just am not a big self promoter, like some guys, that might change, though, as it seems the guys that toot their own horns the most, get the most recognition, even if its not deserved. That last comment, is not directed toward anyone here, just a general observation I have noticed over the years. THe biggest crooks, with the least ability, that pound adds, advertise like crazy, and in general, pound their name down everyones throats, seem to be doing quite well. Now, add honesty, and ability, and take it to the next level.

Like I said, I am not, and was not, promoting those heads. I bought a set, based on the 2 other sets I have worked on as of late, maybe they improved the originals? All I know, is, the aluminumn cut awfuly "hard". Some of the heads, like the older AFR's, cut like butter.

As far as flow numbers go, mine are as "honest" as they come. I have never infalted numbers, to sell porting, or heads, because it just doesn't seem right to me. I know for a fact, that I have lost work, because I will quote a number that is lower than what someone else quoted a guy, so, they go to the other shop, because, they said they can get them to flow more, and then, my customer, handily spanks them down track, and, they compare flow numbers, on the sheet of paper, and, wow, mine are off by 20, but, made more power on the dyno, and ran .3 tenths faster, with a smaller cam, less compression, less gear, less converter, in a heavier car. I can't count how many times I have been told that exact situation has happened. But, the guy is still convinced, his heads are better, because a sheet of paper says so.

My heads, at 218cc, aren;t all that big in cross section. About 5cc, is from moving the pushrod out of the way, to straighten out the runner, and slow the air down, at the opening, and improve/ balance the velocity profile in the port, so there is a more even velocity profile in the port, and reduce turbulence. It is by no means huge. I have a lot of time, playing with the short turn, have tried 3 different valve jobs, 3 or 4 different valves, etc, to get the numbers I have gotten. Like I said, 306 cfm is a killer number on my bench, with the proper cross section, for my application. I am trying to make 600-625+hp, on a 11:1, pump gas 388, that won't have to spin 7500 to do it, make 520+ ft/lbs, I am sure there are others out there, that make more, but not for $1200. Like I said, I wish I would have bought the Darts, but, I am stuck with these heads, and, I am going to make the best of them, and, i only need 1 season out of this engine, even though I know it will run hard for years to come, its just a what I call a transitional engine, to get my car out, that has been sitting for more than a few years, while I build my all aluminumn, 427 LS1 style engine, that I plan to run on E-85 and a carb, and retro fit in my 73 Camaro. Anyone have expierince fitting these new engines in cars like mine? I hear its not that difficult really, and, its amazing how cheap you can build an absolutely killer LS style engine for these days. Gm has a cool front cover now that adapts a front mount, small block Ford type distributor to these engines also, eliminating any fancy electronics, if you so choose to go that route. My goal is about 750hp, and still street it a bit, thats what I am excited about. So, Ed, With all due respect, Frank

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

zipper06

My biggest issue with the heads are the deck thickness and meat under the valve spring pocket. The deck is atmost 3/8' to 7/16" thick. i wouldn't want to put a set on a b/blk chevy with 15 to 1 compression, because i don't think the gaskets will stay on the engine. I wouldn't want to put over 200 lbs on the springs either.
I have not had any issuses with he sets i've sold so far. I see people selling them for $700.00 to $800.00 ready to bolt on. They are making a couple hundred $'s on each set by just assembling them and in some cases they have them shipped from the warehouse already assembled which could be disasterous. I usually buy the bare heads and the assemle kit, that way i at least know the heads are assembled correctly.
i know the flow rates are bogus, Direct Motion claims 308 @ .700 with the 210's fully CNC'ed. I don't have access to a flow bench so i don't know.
I would not worry about putting them on a street motor, but in an all out race motor i would not run them, and i've got lot's of procomp inventory and sell $1,000.00's annuelly.
That's just my take on the heads, i've only had a couple failures with other procomp parts in 3 yrs.
I think if you can get flow rates up around 300CFM, no matter who's heads they are you can build some decent HP, like brodix track 1's only flow 272CFM with the CNC port match, but you can angle mill them suckers to 52/54 CC combustion chambers and they really wake up.

JMO

Zip.

Pwmax

Zipper,

I agree, I wouldn;t run them on something trying to make a ton of power, with big spring pressures either. I should have probably just kepy my mouth shut about them actualy, but, its to late for that now, lol. I also wish I wouldn;t have boughten these heads, as, I created a TON of extra work for myself, like usual.

As far as bogus flow numbers, I haven't flowed any of the cnc'd versions, but, I would bet, they aren;t even close to 308cfm, at 210cc. I am sure its a quick, basic port job, digitized, and recreated on the copy machine. THe set I did that went 280, was closer to that port volume, and they went 279.9 at .700, which, is rounded to 280. I will have some dyno numbers in a few weeks, hopefully, and I will give my Pro-Comp update. Actualy, mine are Strike Force heads, from EPW, same head, in a nicer box, lol. But man, did I mention the box? It was really nice. It was all foamed, and, the heads were further wrapped in bubble wrap. It was a nice box.

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com