Standing behind your engine...
09-27-2007, 06:23 PM
#22
Junior Member
JOURNEYMAN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 25
warrantee work
I'm with Frank. If the builder was at fault because of negligence, then he should stand by his work. I do my own motors. If a cam fails, a cam fails. I've had it happen. Even the cam manufacturer just tells you you must not have broken it in correctly. I've never gotten anything from them. Why is it OK for me to have to rebuild it myself, but paying for that labor makes the guy liable for everything. Unless you get a stated mileage/time warranty, I don't think you should expect one.
Dan
Dan
09-27-2007, 10:37 PM
#23
Senior Member
RACING JUNKIE
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: La.
Posts: 2,890
[quote="billhendren"]
We fully warranty our race engines while on the dyno and afterwords if it is a problem that I feel I should cover.two years ago I 100% warrantied two engines,both super late model with aluminum blocks because of rod bolt failure. the first one made it through the dyno session and failed on the track. there was never a question whether i would cover it because it was obvious the rod bolt failed. the crank was perfect other than the large ding where it kicked the rod through the block,same with the bearing, bent but perfect. the second engine with the same brand of bolts failed on my dyno,I warrantied that as well. both engines cost me well over $15,000.00 and the bolt manufacture denied all responsibility so it came out of my pocket.
In the long run I made out because both these customers highly recommend me and have sent me a ton of work, we have also become good friends.
Bottom line,warranty work is on a case by case deal. I do what I would like a shop to do for me but I don't cover stuff that is obviously not a part failure or machine error. example of whats not covered. bottom end failure due to oil pump belt breakage or severe overheating. even then if its less than 30 days since we built the engine we will do the labor for free or at a large discount just to help the racer out. Bill[/quote
]
Bill you are a one in a million/Saint.
Not many people will stand by their product when it comes to racing engines. I'm certain that much of your business is repeat business because of your honesty. I personally build my own engines, but i were in your neighborhood i would most certainly recommend you to my friends
Zip.
Originally Posted by bjuice
ok Bill let me throw a wrench into this...say the person paid for the lifter bore sleeves etc...and the lifter still failed causing other problems...for the sake of argument lets just say it wiped out the cam,lifters, spun a cam bearing to where the block could not be straighten out with a line bore..bottom line customer needs new block, bearings,cam,lifters and what ever else it hurt along with all the machine work and assembly...how much of this would you cover ?
lets wrench it on up and lets say the lifters failed 1 year out after 200 passes or 2500 road miles, or the lifters failed during a botched valve train adjustment..( human error) that would be hard to prove or dis-approve after the fact...
My point i am trying to get at is Where do you draw the line as an engine builder ?..
not trying to be controversial but i can see a custom engine builder being put out of business real fast with some of the knuckle heads out here..
i am in NO WAY trying to defend these mass engine assemblers such as DYNO-FLO where the over sight was so obvious it hurt..
Brian
lets wrench it on up and lets say the lifters failed 1 year out after 200 passes or 2500 road miles, or the lifters failed during a botched valve train adjustment..( human error) that would be hard to prove or dis-approve after the fact...
My point i am trying to get at is Where do you draw the line as an engine builder ?..
not trying to be controversial but i can see a custom engine builder being put out of business real fast with some of the knuckle heads out here..
i am in NO WAY trying to defend these mass engine assemblers such as DYNO-FLO where the over sight was so obvious it hurt..
Brian
In the long run I made out because both these customers highly recommend me and have sent me a ton of work, we have also become good friends.
Bottom line,warranty work is on a case by case deal. I do what I would like a shop to do for me but I don't cover stuff that is obviously not a part failure or machine error. example of whats not covered. bottom end failure due to oil pump belt breakage or severe overheating. even then if its less than 30 days since we built the engine we will do the labor for free or at a large discount just to help the racer out. Bill[/quote
]
Bill you are a one in a million/Saint.
Not many people will stand by their product when it comes to racing engines. I'm certain that much of your business is repeat business because of your honesty. I personally build my own engines, but i were in your neighborhood i would most certainly recommend you to my friends
Zip.
09-28-2007, 03:52 AM
#24
Senior Member
MASTER BUILDER
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 184
Not to keep making points, but yah, Bill, I suppose, maybe you felt you or one of your guys didn;t tighten the bolt right maybe? But, a bolt failure, if it truly was just a faulty bolt, tightened correctly, I don;t see how you can be responsible, but I do understand that grey area. There has to be some sort of comprimise on both sides. I personaly don;t think its fair, that a company can make a defective part, you use it, and the part fails, that its your fault, and you have to eat it.
Here is a situation, within weeks. We did a 509 for a guy, out of a 502 crtate engine. He beat it for 2 years, HARD, sprayed it with 200shot of nos, using at least 1 bottle a weekend, for 2 years. This is a pump gas engine. He recently put a big shot plate on it, and the 350 jets. He still ran 92, and didn;t pull anymore timing out of it, etc, and it detonated. It had the original gm head bolts, as from the crate engine, with cometic gaskets. He detonated it, and it lifted the head, and puffed a gasket. It was leaking compression, and ran funny. So, he pulled it out, and, it was freshened, ARP head studs added, etc. Everything was fine. He puts it back in, and, he set the timing wrong. Had 68 degrees of timing, at least he was honest and admitted that. Most guys would "forget" that part. Well, he sprayed it, on 92, and, doesn;t know exactly where the timing was, because he has a retard box, but if it was set at 68 degrees, well, take 2 degrees for every 50 hp, roughly, and do the math, he still had 54 degrees of timing, spraying a 350 shot, on 92 octane!!. Lets just say, it didn;t like it to well.
It melted 3 pistons, lifted the heads again, and tweaked them, it stretched the center 3 mains out. Considering, the damage wasn;t that bad. But, now, he just spent a bunch of money 2 weeks ago, and now, has to spend even more, and, he is sorta hinting at being "helped" out on the bill, considering it was just re-done 2 weeks ago. So, do you work for half price to help him out, because he made a mistake? Thats not really fair is it? He screwed up, everything was mint when it left, he wrecks it, and now wants a deal. What do you do? You do that 3 or 4 times a year, and man, you loose your a**, for doing a good job, and they mess it up. Some guys will be mad, and go out and bad mouth you for that above situation, becaue quote "He didn't help me out". One of those deals, what do you do? Damed if you do, damned if you don't. And being honest, and always doing a good job, and hope to be reffered to friends etc, you don;t want to make waves, knowing how little it takes, for a whiner to say negative stuff about you, and, that old rule, make a customer happy, and he may or may not tell anyone about you, but, piss a customer off, and, They will tell ANYBODY that will listen, negative things about you.
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
Here is a situation, within weeks. We did a 509 for a guy, out of a 502 crtate engine. He beat it for 2 years, HARD, sprayed it with 200shot of nos, using at least 1 bottle a weekend, for 2 years. This is a pump gas engine. He recently put a big shot plate on it, and the 350 jets. He still ran 92, and didn;t pull anymore timing out of it, etc, and it detonated. It had the original gm head bolts, as from the crate engine, with cometic gaskets. He detonated it, and it lifted the head, and puffed a gasket. It was leaking compression, and ran funny. So, he pulled it out, and, it was freshened, ARP head studs added, etc. Everything was fine. He puts it back in, and, he set the timing wrong. Had 68 degrees of timing, at least he was honest and admitted that. Most guys would "forget" that part. Well, he sprayed it, on 92, and, doesn;t know exactly where the timing was, because he has a retard box, but if it was set at 68 degrees, well, take 2 degrees for every 50 hp, roughly, and do the math, he still had 54 degrees of timing, spraying a 350 shot, on 92 octane!!. Lets just say, it didn;t like it to well.
It melted 3 pistons, lifted the heads again, and tweaked them, it stretched the center 3 mains out. Considering, the damage wasn;t that bad. But, now, he just spent a bunch of money 2 weeks ago, and now, has to spend even more, and, he is sorta hinting at being "helped" out on the bill, considering it was just re-done 2 weeks ago. So, do you work for half price to help him out, because he made a mistake? Thats not really fair is it? He screwed up, everything was mint when it left, he wrecks it, and now wants a deal. What do you do? You do that 3 or 4 times a year, and man, you loose your a**, for doing a good job, and they mess it up. Some guys will be mad, and go out and bad mouth you for that above situation, becaue quote "He didn't help me out". One of those deals, what do you do? Damed if you do, damned if you don't. And being honest, and always doing a good job, and hope to be reffered to friends etc, you don;t want to make waves, knowing how little it takes, for a whiner to say negative stuff about you, and, that old rule, make a customer happy, and he may or may not tell anyone about you, but, piss a customer off, and, They will tell ANYBODY that will listen, negative things about you.
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
09-28-2007, 05:45 AM
#25
Senior Member
MASTER BUILDER
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Rutherfordton North Carolina
Posts: 192
We have had dry sump belts break or come off on new engines the first night out.In a case like this where the customer is honest and admits a mistake we would knock 25% or so off the labor to help him out, in fact this just occurred last week.
In the long run you keep a customer and gain more because he will tell his Friends you helped him out when you clearly didn't need to.
If your in this business for the long haul taking care of customers is top priority. any money you loose taking care of the customers will be made back and then some later.
Don't get me wrong,we don't go crazy warrantying engines.example would be if a customer supplied there own parts and there part failed.we tell the customer and note it on the tag that when they supply the parts we only guarantee the machine work was done correct. Bill
In the long run you keep a customer and gain more because he will tell his Friends you helped him out when you clearly didn't need to.
If your in this business for the long haul taking care of customers is top priority. any money you loose taking care of the customers will be made back and then some later.
Don't get me wrong,we don't go crazy warrantying engines.example would be if a customer supplied there own parts and there part failed.we tell the customer and note it on the tag that when they supply the parts we only guarantee the machine work was done correct. Bill
09-28-2007, 12:10 PM
#26
Junior Member
APPRENTICE
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Tenn
Posts: 23
We prefer all our customers to let us start their engines on the dyno.First off it most definitely is still mine at that point.No good way to say this, we all make mistakes but we keep a check list to start engines to reduce mistakes to minimum. How many customers do you have that does that.WE have had people start them with no oil, no water, little if no fuel. Guess how many will tell you they did that? Very few. We demand that we start flat tappet motors. We had one customer that lost 3 lobes on (break in). His belief, get motor hot quick by leaving water out and then fill and let idle. This way it want knock lobes off from running too fast to start with. Dont get me wrong, the majority of our customers do not do any of the above, but we all have some. How do you handle it.As gently and as tactfully as you can. We, like Bill, try to help every customer whom has the misfortune of new engine delimas. We need that good customer base so dont shoot your self in the foot if you are at fault. If you are not at fault. sit down with customer and make every attempt at coming to middle ground. You and him both will be better off and most time likely he will return because you took that time. It is no sin to admit guilt on either side. The lady of the house says I am dumberrrr than sh-t and I tactfully found middle ground ( and agreed).I did get supper that night but nothing else.
thanks for listening to an old man ravings
racear
thanks for listening to an old man ravings
racear
09-29-2007, 06:55 AM
#27
Senior Member
MASTER BUILDER
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 184
Racear,
I hear you. The main reason I insist on dynoing any performance engine, is, for the simple fact I want to see it run, break it in propperly, make sure there is no leaks, etc etc. That way, they can;t take it home and wreck it. At least if you do have a problem on the dyno, you can fix it, before its totaly ruined, and, its usualy not a big deal. But, let them take it home, with the buddy factor, it usualy seems like there is an "expert" buddy involved, thats calling the shots, and, that scenerio is usualy a nightmare waiting to happen, as, they know just enough to be dangerous. That way, too, if there is a problem later, its pretty hard to point the finger at me, and the engine will usualy "tell" you what happened.
I have head of a few stories from other shops, where they forgot to put oil in the engine, and ran it, and torched it, then bring it back, flipping out, to try and scam the shop to fix it for free.Thankfully, I have very little problems, and don;t have to deal with a whole lot, but one story, where we did some heads, and machining for a budget circle track racer, low end class, that not to stereotype, but, wanted it for free, dropped it off today, but wants it yesterday types. THey put it together, this is mid season, so, we rushed it thru for them, they are happy, run the rest of the season, 5 or 6 weekends, did well. Then, in the spring, they show up, absolutely borderline psychotic, screaming, yelling, freaking out, causing a big scene, accusing us of "craking" there engine. Its like "What??" You cracked our engine, and built us a piece of junk. on and on. Turns out, they drained the water, for winter, and, when they pulled it out in spring, they fired it up, got it running, and, when it was SMOKING hot, they remembered that no one put water in it. So, out came the garden hose, while it was running, and, they fill the radiator with nice, 58 degree city water, in a 270 degree engine, lol. Lets just say, it didn't like that to well, and it cracked the block like an egg, in a few spots. Well, they forgot to mention the part about forgetting the water. A buddy of ours, who was there, helping them get in running, in a conversation 2 days later, was not aware of them coming down, and causing the scene, and didn;t know, that they came down and pulled that. When the stories collaborated, he flipped out, chewed out his buddy, and, we got an appology, and the typical cry me a river story, of no money, etc etc. At that point, its like, go pound sand pall.
But yah, its to bad we have to deal with stuff like that. And like me or not for being vocal, its total BS. Not to say we aren;t all human, and do make mistakes from time to time, although, I really can;t think of any I have made, lol. Seriously though, I double and tripple check stuff, because to be quite Frank, no pun intended, I can;t afford to. But, this is a good post, to give us shops some insight, on how other guys handle these situations, and, for the guy getting work done.
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
I hear you. The main reason I insist on dynoing any performance engine, is, for the simple fact I want to see it run, break it in propperly, make sure there is no leaks, etc etc. That way, they can;t take it home and wreck it. At least if you do have a problem on the dyno, you can fix it, before its totaly ruined, and, its usualy not a big deal. But, let them take it home, with the buddy factor, it usualy seems like there is an "expert" buddy involved, thats calling the shots, and, that scenerio is usualy a nightmare waiting to happen, as, they know just enough to be dangerous. That way, too, if there is a problem later, its pretty hard to point the finger at me, and the engine will usualy "tell" you what happened.
I have head of a few stories from other shops, where they forgot to put oil in the engine, and ran it, and torched it, then bring it back, flipping out, to try and scam the shop to fix it for free.Thankfully, I have very little problems, and don;t have to deal with a whole lot, but one story, where we did some heads, and machining for a budget circle track racer, low end class, that not to stereotype, but, wanted it for free, dropped it off today, but wants it yesterday types. THey put it together, this is mid season, so, we rushed it thru for them, they are happy, run the rest of the season, 5 or 6 weekends, did well. Then, in the spring, they show up, absolutely borderline psychotic, screaming, yelling, freaking out, causing a big scene, accusing us of "craking" there engine. Its like "What??" You cracked our engine, and built us a piece of junk. on and on. Turns out, they drained the water, for winter, and, when they pulled it out in spring, they fired it up, got it running, and, when it was SMOKING hot, they remembered that no one put water in it. So, out came the garden hose, while it was running, and, they fill the radiator with nice, 58 degree city water, in a 270 degree engine, lol. Lets just say, it didn't like that to well, and it cracked the block like an egg, in a few spots. Well, they forgot to mention the part about forgetting the water. A buddy of ours, who was there, helping them get in running, in a conversation 2 days later, was not aware of them coming down, and causing the scene, and didn;t know, that they came down and pulled that. When the stories collaborated, he flipped out, chewed out his buddy, and, we got an appology, and the typical cry me a river story, of no money, etc etc. At that point, its like, go pound sand pall.
But yah, its to bad we have to deal with stuff like that. And like me or not for being vocal, its total BS. Not to say we aren;t all human, and do make mistakes from time to time, although, I really can;t think of any I have made, lol. Seriously though, I double and tripple check stuff, because to be quite Frank, no pun intended, I can;t afford to. But, this is a good post, to give us shops some insight, on how other guys handle these situations, and, for the guy getting work done.
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
09-29-2007, 07:52 AM
#28
Junior Member
APPRENTICE
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Tenn
Posts: 23
I would like to make a statement that I dont feel that most people do not understand. My dyno has never made money. It is an investement. With the labor that goes into dynoing an engine, we just hope to break even on the labor. But what it does offer the opputunity not to loose money. It is a safety measure for the consumer. He can hear, feel, and smell his product before it ever leaves. He can stand right beside you and see the numbers. If he has questions, he can ask then and there. If he sees a problem, you have the oppurtunity to deal with there and not in the car. I dont know about the rest of you engine builders, but my dyno cost as much as any piece of equipment in my shop, but makes less money than anything I have. But it is the greatest learning tool you can purchase. My belief is, if you cant measure it, then how the hell do you know if you improved it. Numbers dont lie but liars can lie about the numbers. God, aint it great about philosophy and being full of crap. So she tolf me again this morning. As quick as she gets my breakfast done I going to tell her what I think.
racear
racear
09-30-2007, 09:03 AM
#30
Junior Member
JOURNEYMAN
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 29
Well I see this turned into quite a topic. Yesterday I got invited to an open house by an engine builder I really like. (He was the one who owns the Dyno my engine was on.) Anyway, it was a great time with a lot of good food and good people. I will try to get my new motor to him next year and hopefully be out for the first time in quite a while. Thanks for the replies guys. :wink:
