dart little M oil restrickers?
12-02-2009, 08:39 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by DRTRCR22
Warren,
I just don't see how you could get a drill driven primer tool to pump up enough oil to the top side fast enough to simulate top end revs...? Uless you figure out how to hook it up ot a high speed die grinder or something?
I prime all my engines to check for oil flow to each rocker before I button it up, and I have never got enough flow to even squirt out over the edge of the heads using a [high speed] drill.
My engine builder refuses to put restrictors because he says the oil needs to cool the valve springs and upper valve train.
My argument is why then have I lost several bottom ends because all 8 quarts of oil are pumped right up and out of the valve cover tube breathers (circle track valve cover setup) and all over the engine compartment as the bottom end cavitates and welds the rods to the crank????? He can't answer that one...?
So I put the restrictors in myself after I get it home and before I put the engine in the car.
I have never lost a top end because of lack of cooling oil, but I have lost several bottom ends because of pumping all the oil right out the topside...!
Jim
I just don't see how you could get a drill driven primer tool to pump up enough oil to the top side fast enough to simulate top end revs...? Uless you figure out how to hook it up ot a high speed die grinder or something?
I prime all my engines to check for oil flow to each rocker before I button it up, and I have never got enough flow to even squirt out over the edge of the heads using a [high speed] drill.
My engine builder refuses to put restrictors because he says the oil needs to cool the valve springs and upper valve train.
My argument is why then have I lost several bottom ends because all 8 quarts of oil are pumped right up and out of the valve cover tube breathers (circle track valve cover setup) and all over the engine compartment as the bottom end cavitates and welds the rods to the crank????? He can't answer that one...?
So I put the restrictors in myself after I get it home and before I put the engine in the car.
I have never lost a top end because of lack of cooling oil, but I have lost several bottom ends because of pumping all the oil right out the topside...!
Jim
Where are you going to put 8 quarts of oil on the top end???
If your are running screen kits in the lifter galley you may want to do away with them.
I have run 6 quart systems before and no issues HMMMMMMMM
12-02-2009, 10:15 PM
#22
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Are you running a flat pan? if so when your hard on the binders all the oil can go straight to the front if it doesn't have something to hold it back. If you run a sump you only need enough oil to cover the pick up how much more oil does it take to cover the pickup on a flat pan?
CAM67152
CAM67152
12-03-2009, 10:27 AM
#23
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Last night I primed the engine with the drill for several minutes, also turning the engine over from time to time to cycle the S/R lifters. The oil was flowing really well over the rollers in the lifters, however, I wasn't getting "any" flow up to the Jesel shaft rockers.
By compairson, last year when I primed my GM block LT-4 race engine with S/R cam and Comp lifters, the oil was flowing "big time" up the push-rods to the shaft rockers.
So, I removed the restrictors which were installed by the machine shop to look them over. They were 1/4" NPT plugs w/ a .100" hole. So, I drilled them out to .130" and plan to recheck everything tonight (run the primer again).
Additionally, I talked with the tech people at Howards about the Pro-Max lifters and the top oiling issue. They thought the restrictors with a .130" hole was the correct option for my engine and that it would oil the top end once it was actually running. And not getting any top flow while priming was typical, I just need to check to make sure the top is oiling after is has been run a short time.
Warren
By compairson, last year when I primed my GM block LT-4 race engine with S/R cam and Comp lifters, the oil was flowing "big time" up the push-rods to the shaft rockers.
So, I removed the restrictors which were installed by the machine shop to look them over. They were 1/4" NPT plugs w/ a .100" hole. So, I drilled them out to .130" and plan to recheck everything tonight (run the primer again).
Additionally, I talked with the tech people at Howards about the Pro-Max lifters and the top oiling issue. They thought the restrictors with a .130" hole was the correct option for my engine and that it would oil the top end once it was actually running. And not getting any top flow while priming was typical, I just need to check to make sure the top is oiling after is has been run a short time.
Warren
12-03-2009, 02:13 PM
#24
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Well Hink, Cam and Warren...
As you can see in my avatar pic, I run an IMCA Dirt Modified on 1/4 to 3/8 clay circle tracks. We run 20 all out laps from 3500rpm in the corners to 8000 down the straights.
We run 8 qt flat pans with right side kickout and offest pickup into the kickout. These 7 or 8 qt pans have numerous gated baffles, scrapers and windage trays in them, some costing over $500 with the pickup tube.
Where are you goning to put 8 qts of oil in the top end you ask...? Right out the breather tubes, that's where! There is no place else for it to go other than blow out the valve cover gaskets or out the breather tubes. And No, I do not run screens, tubes or plugs in my galley.
Yes... valve cover gaskets blown-outs are another big problem, even with the high dollar rubber ones with metal laminate in them...
The left valve cover has two tall tubes with K&N breathers on top, on the left bank only.
With everyone on the brink of 8K rpm pushing oil out thru the breathers, most guys are going to a NASCAR style remote breather oil catch can, hosed off completely sealed crankcase and valve covers via -12an fitting and line off the left bank valve cover. The excess oil is then drained out of the catch can after each race. I have been noticing more and more different catch can setups from race parts outlets, because apparenly this is a huge problem for everyone running circle track engines over 7K rpm for long periods of time.
Notice on Hink's engine pic with the oil spraybar tube fittings...?
No valve cover venting...? Hink, where do you vent your crankcase?
It seems that everyone installs the Melling M55-HV (or M77-HV big block pump which only makes matters worse), because nobody wants to chance a stock style pump in a $10k race engine...? (No, we cannot run a dry sump system, our rules don't allow it).
I have even seen several oil filters sucked so hard at high rpm that they collapse/implode, cutting off oil supply until splt second failure at 8K.
I have lost two engines the past five years because of this, the first one using a Fram PH5, then another using a Fram HP4 racing filter. I have thousands of people tell me that is IMPOSSIBLE, and I couldn't hardly believe it myself until it happened to me...TWICE!
Now I use only WIX racing filters.
Guys, one thing I cannot understand... WHY are you messing with drilled out 1/4" plugs, when for a just a couple bucks you can buy proffesionally built screw in oil restrictors with the proper length and o-rings and size for your application from any race parts outlet?????
They make sets specifically for flat tappet, or roller cam setups, and they work exactly the way they should...
Well, bottom line, in all my years experience with high revving circle track engines, alky and fuel alike, is that bottom end oil loss is the #1 reason for catastrophic failure. Valve train failure is #2 because of turning these engines so tight. Now that IMCA is allowing 'after-market' blocks, most everyone is going to the DART SHP or Little M blocks with priority oiling to help eleviate this problem.
Again, Hink, how are YOU breathing your engine...?
Jim
As you can see in my avatar pic, I run an IMCA Dirt Modified on 1/4 to 3/8 clay circle tracks. We run 20 all out laps from 3500rpm in the corners to 8000 down the straights.
We run 8 qt flat pans with right side kickout and offest pickup into the kickout. These 7 or 8 qt pans have numerous gated baffles, scrapers and windage trays in them, some costing over $500 with the pickup tube.
Where are you goning to put 8 qts of oil in the top end you ask...? Right out the breather tubes, that's where! There is no place else for it to go other than blow out the valve cover gaskets or out the breather tubes. And No, I do not run screens, tubes or plugs in my galley.
Yes... valve cover gaskets blown-outs are another big problem, even with the high dollar rubber ones with metal laminate in them...
The left valve cover has two tall tubes with K&N breathers on top, on the left bank only.
With everyone on the brink of 8K rpm pushing oil out thru the breathers, most guys are going to a NASCAR style remote breather oil catch can, hosed off completely sealed crankcase and valve covers via -12an fitting and line off the left bank valve cover. The excess oil is then drained out of the catch can after each race. I have been noticing more and more different catch can setups from race parts outlets, because apparenly this is a huge problem for everyone running circle track engines over 7K rpm for long periods of time.
Notice on Hink's engine pic with the oil spraybar tube fittings...?
No valve cover venting...? Hink, where do you vent your crankcase?
It seems that everyone installs the Melling M55-HV (or M77-HV big block pump which only makes matters worse), because nobody wants to chance a stock style pump in a $10k race engine...? (No, we cannot run a dry sump system, our rules don't allow it).
I have even seen several oil filters sucked so hard at high rpm that they collapse/implode, cutting off oil supply until splt second failure at 8K.
I have lost two engines the past five years because of this, the first one using a Fram PH5, then another using a Fram HP4 racing filter. I have thousands of people tell me that is IMPOSSIBLE, and I couldn't hardly believe it myself until it happened to me...TWICE!
Now I use only WIX racing filters.
Guys, one thing I cannot understand... WHY are you messing with drilled out 1/4" plugs, when for a just a couple bucks you can buy proffesionally built screw in oil restrictors with the proper length and o-rings and size for your application from any race parts outlet?????
They make sets specifically for flat tappet, or roller cam setups, and they work exactly the way they should...
Well, bottom line, in all my years experience with high revving circle track engines, alky and fuel alike, is that bottom end oil loss is the #1 reason for catastrophic failure. Valve train failure is #2 because of turning these engines so tight. Now that IMCA is allowing 'after-market' blocks, most everyone is going to the DART SHP or Little M blocks with priority oiling to help eleviate this problem.
Again, Hink, how are YOU breathing your engine...?
Jim
12-03-2009, 02:27 PM
#25
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Oooops never mind Hink... I just went back to look a your photo again and just now noticed the dry sump pump. You obviously run a remote oil breather catch can like I am talking about... thru the dry sump lines though. We cannot do that...
Jim
Jim
12-03-2009, 03:32 PM
#26
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Jim,
Really good write-up. /\ /\ /\ /\
Also, it sounds like you're running your engine really hard! Much, much harder than drag racing!
The reason I'm using the drilled 1/4" NPT plug, that is what Dart and several other people recommended to me for my engine. Also, everyone recommended a .125" to .150" hole in the restrictors. Additionally, I'm not sure my Little-M block can use those long restrictors with the O-ring.
Warren
Here are some photos.
http://gi77.photobucket.com/groups/j...g?t=1259886325
http://gi77.photobucket.com/groups/j...g?t=1259886666
Really good write-up. /\ /\ /\ /\
Also, it sounds like you're running your engine really hard! Much, much harder than drag racing!
The reason I'm using the drilled 1/4" NPT plug, that is what Dart and several other people recommended to me for my engine. Also, everyone recommended a .125" to .150" hole in the restrictors. Additionally, I'm not sure my Little-M block can use those long restrictors with the O-ring.
Warren
Here are some photos.
http://gi77.photobucket.com/groups/j...g?t=1259886325
http://gi77.photobucket.com/groups/j...g?t=1259886666
12-03-2009, 04:17 PM
#27
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Yeah Warren, we run these things WAY too hard IMO.
Most of these engines don't even last one full season... 40 nights at best!
Heat, and dirt, and torque thrashing... on and off throttle constantly....
Well, I just got my first Lttle M engine this past season. It was originally built by Dennis Millert out of Kansas City, (who allegedly builds Clint Boyers' dirt late model engines). I bought it used with only 24 nights on it, but when I switched from Alky to VP 110 something went wrong and burnt six pistons. It was a 388 CI using a 3.625 stroke, 6" rods, and 4.125 bore... all brand new Dart 400 mains Little M with Dart Platinum heads, and all Comp roller cam top end assembly.
Wow that engine was the strongest I have ever driven, and several other experienced race buddies drove it and cofirmed the same.
But, my current engine builder, Mike Elmore, convinced me to get all the cubes I can so he talked me into a 404 CI rotating aseembly (+.020 bore to clean up the burnt cylinders), but flat tapped cam to be IMCA legal.
He just got it done and broke in, and it sounds even stronger than before. I have right about $13K in this engine now, and am almost scared to even put it in the car for next season. With the financial hurt I am in now, if it blows again I am out for good...
Personally, I don't think I would run ANY oil restrictors in a Dart block... that is why I got my Dart engine so I wouldn't have any more oil cavitating or overpumping problems with its primary selct oiling system.
Since this is my first Dart engine though, I will just say that is just my opinion, and may find out differently as time goes on.
Let us know how yours turns out and what is does... thanks, Jim
Most of these engines don't even last one full season... 40 nights at best!
Heat, and dirt, and torque thrashing... on and off throttle constantly....
Well, I just got my first Lttle M engine this past season. It was originally built by Dennis Millert out of Kansas City, (who allegedly builds Clint Boyers' dirt late model engines). I bought it used with only 24 nights on it, but when I switched from Alky to VP 110 something went wrong and burnt six pistons. It was a 388 CI using a 3.625 stroke, 6" rods, and 4.125 bore... all brand new Dart 400 mains Little M with Dart Platinum heads, and all Comp roller cam top end assembly.
Wow that engine was the strongest I have ever driven, and several other experienced race buddies drove it and cofirmed the same.
But, my current engine builder, Mike Elmore, convinced me to get all the cubes I can so he talked me into a 404 CI rotating aseembly (+.020 bore to clean up the burnt cylinders), but flat tapped cam to be IMCA legal.
He just got it done and broke in, and it sounds even stronger than before. I have right about $13K in this engine now, and am almost scared to even put it in the car for next season. With the financial hurt I am in now, if it blows again I am out for good...
Personally, I don't think I would run ANY oil restrictors in a Dart block... that is why I got my Dart engine so I wouldn't have any more oil cavitating or overpumping problems with its primary selct oiling system.
Since this is my first Dart engine though, I will just say that is just my opinion, and may find out differently as time goes on.
Let us know how yours turns out and what is does... thanks, Jim
12-03-2009, 07:14 PM
#28
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I've been watching this thread from the start, but waited to chime in until the discussion has covered most of the questions.
I too have a Dart Lil "M" 434" (drag motor)but don't plan to run restrictors, i run the Crower HiPro roller lifters which also oils the rollers thru the lifters and they oil on the lifter body above the band on the lifters, another reason i'm not running restrictors. With the .020 oiling holes to each roller plus the oil holes in the pushrods, i'm not sure i could get enough oil to the dedicated T&D oiling system for the rockers. I don't run a vacuum pump (yet) just a header evac system. The engine is on alcohol with Hilborn stacks.
I know that you (Jim) bought your Dart blk. engine used, but i believe you would have been better off if you could have found a blk. with 350 mains, or run bearing spacers, with turning that many RPMs. That's a big drop in heat and crankshaft weight from 2.650 to 2.450 main jurnal size. In fact most NASCAR guys are running 2.300 main jurnals.
Zip.
I too have a Dart Lil "M" 434" (drag motor)but don't plan to run restrictors, i run the Crower HiPro roller lifters which also oils the rollers thru the lifters and they oil on the lifter body above the band on the lifters, another reason i'm not running restrictors. With the .020 oiling holes to each roller plus the oil holes in the pushrods, i'm not sure i could get enough oil to the dedicated T&D oiling system for the rockers. I don't run a vacuum pump (yet) just a header evac system. The engine is on alcohol with Hilborn stacks.
I know that you (Jim) bought your Dart blk. engine used, but i believe you would have been better off if you could have found a blk. with 350 mains, or run bearing spacers, with turning that many RPMs. That's a big drop in heat and crankshaft weight from 2.650 to 2.450 main jurnal size. In fact most NASCAR guys are running 2.300 main jurnals.
Zip.
12-04-2009, 04:52 AM
#29
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This is the new Dart Little-M 427 stroker with Dart Pro-1 230 heads.
http://gi77.photobucket.com/groups/j...g?t=1259934452
http://gi77.photobucket.com/groups/j...g?t=1259934452
12-04-2009, 06:34 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by zipper06
I've been watching this thread from the start, but waited to chime in until the discussion has covered most of the questions.
I too have a Dart Lil "M" 434" (drag motor)but don't plan to run restrictors, i run the Crower HiPro roller lifters which also oils the rollers thru the lifters and they oil on the lifter body above the band on the lifters, another reason i'm not running restrictors. With the .020 oiling holes to each roller plus the oil holes in the pushrods, i'm not sure i could get enough oil to the dedicated T&D oiling system for the rockers. I don't run a vacuum pump (yet) just a header evac system. The engine is on alcohol with Hilborn stacks.
I know that you (Jim) bought your Dart blk. engine used, but i believe you would have been better off if you could have found a blk. with 350 mains, or run bearing spacers, with turning that many RPMs. That's a big drop in heat and crankshaft weight from 2.650 to 2.450 main jurnal size. In fact most NASCAR guys are running 2.300 main jurnals.
Zip.
I too have a Dart Lil "M" 434" (drag motor)but don't plan to run restrictors, i run the Crower HiPro roller lifters which also oils the rollers thru the lifters and they oil on the lifter body above the band on the lifters, another reason i'm not running restrictors. With the .020 oiling holes to each roller plus the oil holes in the pushrods, i'm not sure i could get enough oil to the dedicated T&D oiling system for the rockers. I don't run a vacuum pump (yet) just a header evac system. The engine is on alcohol with Hilborn stacks.
I know that you (Jim) bought your Dart blk. engine used, but i believe you would have been better off if you could have found a blk. with 350 mains, or run bearing spacers, with turning that many RPMs. That's a big drop in heat and crankshaft weight from 2.650 to 2.450 main jurnal size. In fact most NASCAR guys are running 2.300 main jurnals.
Zip.
Cup teams are running 2 inch mains and when Toyota first got into the scene they were using a 1.750 main journals in their engines.