Help on Ladder bar car
#11
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RACING JUNKIE
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Hobbs, NM
Posts: 842
What topspeed said will work in setup. In my experiences, when you go with alot more HP engine your car will have a tendency to go right. Due to striking the tires harder. Usually you need more preload. If thats the case then shorting the passenger side adjuster bar a bit will a add a little preload. I'm basing this on the fact that your car was going straight with the other engine.
#12
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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Originally Posted by dparker
What topspeed said will work in setup. In my experiences, when you go with alot more HP engine your car will have a tendency to go right. Due to striking the tires harder. Usually you need more preload. If thats the case then shorting the passenger side adjuster bar a bit will a add a little preload. I'm basing this on the fact that your car was going straight with the other engine.
#13
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Location: Hobbs, NM
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Sound like you running faster than we are. Fastest in our crew is 7.90s. But not one of us has been able to get away with less than 50lb more on the right rear and 70lb more on the left front. On scales mine is 65lb heavier right rear and 90lb heavier left front.
#14
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[quote="dparker"]Sound like you running faster than we are. Fastest in our crew is 7.90s. But not one of us has been able to get away with less than 50lb more on the right rear and 70lb more on the left front. On scales mine is 65lb heavier right rear and 90lb heavier left front
[/quote
The right rear does not need to be heavier than the left ever. I have 494# on RR and 557# LR but the left front is heavier than the right by 54#
[/quote
The right rear does not need to be heavier than the left ever. I have 494# on RR and 557# LR but the left front is heavier than the right by 54#
#15
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To add detail to the scale report I just gave, that car has an anti roll bar and a 4 link. When the tires feel the 920# of torque the preload is a bit of a joke to the rod ends and causes binding in the suspension which will cause major traction loss at that moment of bind. This is why I am big on getting the correct instant center on a given combination to avoid using mechanical bind (Pre load) and excessive pinion angles to get off the line. The less pre load you use the better the car or dragster will behave on the big end and under deceleration. The bind condition is constant and you are crutching the suspension for the first 10' and have to deal with it all the way down the track. If you look at any Pro stock car scale report it will be the same or very similar to mine with the RR lighter than the left.
#16
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Originally Posted by TopspeedLowet
Originally Posted by dparker
What topspeed said will work in setup. In my experiences, when you go with alot more HP engine your car will have a tendency to go right. Due to striking the tires harder. Usually you need more preload. If thats the case then shorting the passenger side adjuster bar a bit will a add a little preload. I'm basing this on the fact that your car was going straight with the other engine.
What happens when Torque hits Rear End from Driveline;
Know and understand that anytime torque is applied that your left rear tire will be trying to push down and your right rear tire will be trying to rise looking from the rear of car. All cars in any kind of racing or activity will exhibit this twisting motion if there is any form of friction coefficient existing between the tire rolling surface and the ground/track/road. The tendency will still be there to twist the rear with torque even with no tires or wheels. It is when you start to hook that it really shows up.
If your rear end was not attached with brackets, when the drive shaft rotates in the counter-clockwise movement (looking from rear of car), the entire rear end assembly would rotate counter-clockwise like a propeller if it were suspended in the air and had room to move. The drive shaft rotates in the direction that engine torque is applied to it. Even attached with bars and suspension it still wants to rotate.
Always keep in mind that As greater torque is applied the rotational force will be greater so as power increases the car will want to pull to the right, which we counteract by suspension preloading in adjustments. If doing any bar preloading do know that even only 1/2 turn is an extreme adjustment from neutral load position. We usually preload bars in increments of portions of a nut flat when we are close. 1/2 of a flat can make a car go straight that was trying to veer to the right. Too much bar preload will pull us to the left and quickly can get us into the wall.
#17
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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Originally Posted by dparker
Originally Posted by TopspeedLowet
Originally Posted by dparker
What topspeed said will work in setup. In my experiences, when you go with alot more HP engine your car will have a tendency to go right. Due to striking the tires harder. Usually you need more preload. If thats the case then shorting the passenger side adjuster bar a bit will a add a little preload. I'm basing this on the fact that your car was going straight with the other engine.
What happens when Torque hits Rear End from Driveline;
Know and understand that anytime torque is applied that your left rear tire will be trying to push down and your right rear tire will be trying to rise looking from the rear of car. All cars in any kind of racing or activity will exhibit this twisting motion if there is any form of friction coefficient existing between the tire rolling surface and the ground/track/road. The tendency will still be there to twist the rear with torque even with no tires or wheels. It is when you start to hook that it really shows up.
If your rear end was not attached with brackets, when the drive shaft rotates in the counter-clockwise movement (looking from rear of car), the entire rear end assembly would rotate counter-clockwise like a propeller if it were suspended in the air and had room to move. The drive shaft rotates in the direction that engine torque is applied to it. Even attached with bars and suspension it still wants to rotate.
Always keep in mind that As greater torque is applied the rotational force will be greater so as power increases the car will want to pull to the right, which we counteract by suspension preloading in adjustments. If doing any bar preloading do know that even only 1/2 turn is an extreme adjustment from neutral load position. We usually preload bars in increments of portions of a nut flat when we are close. 1/2 of a flat can make a car go straight that was trying to veer to the right. Too much bar preload will pull us to the left and quickly can get us into the wall.
Good luck to you all and enjoy the read
#18
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Hobbs, NM
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Your exactly right, sometimes I think as it would pertain to my car. Kinda what I would do is mine were doing the same thing. Its always better to ask a few questions before giving advice. Your right, getting everything straight should be done first. But a 2x3 9sec. ladder bar car just reacts different to changes than a 7sec all round tube prostock chassis.
You ready to sponsor me one of those chassis? I promise to put it in the winners circle...
You ready to sponsor me one of those chassis? I promise to put it in the winners circle...
#19
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 504
Originally Posted by dparker
Your exactly right, sometimes I think as it would pertain to my car. Kinda what I would do is mine were doing the same thing. Its always better to ask a few questions before giving advice. Your right, getting everything straight should be done first. But a 2x3 9sec. ladder bar car just reacts different to changes than a 7sec all round tube prostock chassis.
You ready to sponsor me one of those chassis? I promise to put it in the winners circle...
You ready to sponsor me one of those chassis? I promise to put it in the winners circle...
Thanks for the reply though, I appreciate your commentary and friendly comments on this site. Sorry I can not float you a new chassis to play with.
I hope to have more work next year to help my program finance's as well.
I hope every one here is able to get through the season safely with there budgets they have, that is why I believe getting good advice is so important lately.
Thanks again Dparker for your thought provoking comments
Bruce
#20
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 144
Thanks for all the comments pertaining to this problem. I have a better idea as to what is happening on the car now. I just need to spend some time tweaking it. Spring preload, preload on the ladder, etc.
Damn power always causes problems. ( or the lack there of )
I'll keep you posted on progress.
Thanks
Al
Damn power always causes problems. ( or the lack there of )
I'll keep you posted on progress.
Thanks
Al