mrmopar622

Are you serious?? You are joking right??!!
Do you NOT see I paid Naylor his asking price to build me an 1100+hp engine? Do you NOT see the dyno results - 947 hp that's no where near the 1100+hp?!? Just how many people do you think will want THAT same deal? I asked you on a previous post what do you think APD Racing Engines, the ones posted in your signature, would do if you had them to build you a 1100+ hp engine and it only made 947 hp, would you be happy? Do you think they would step up & make it right or tell you got a good enough deal?

You asked what would I do in his shoes - I'll tell you what I'd do - I would step up & do the right thing, the same thing any other honest business owner would do. I would do whatever it took to make the engine produce 1100+ hp as I promised, or I would talk to my customer & try to reach some form of reimbursement for what I did not deliver.
If Naylor did this, don't you think this would be a better way for his potential customers to see he is a man of his word and reliable to do business with? I can't see where anyone, after seeing all this documentation, would want to do business with a man like him.

bixblk

Here is my opinion, and how I see this. If the motor was not dynoed at Naylors and in fact it had some potential problems as stated by the buyer, than reguardless of the dyno number, he did not get what he paid for. If the dyno number is important to the buyer and the motor was advertised as producing the HP number advertised, than the builder should back up that claim.
Do HP numbers vary and can they vary from one dyno to another, yep for sure.
Dynos are used as a tool to help break in motor and dynamically check the engine out. They are also a great tool to baseline and get an understanding of the engine power.
Will it give you an ET, nope, will it give you an idea if you should be faster, possibly !!
That all being said, taking all this info at stated as being correct, I think the buyer is being patient and seems to be adressing this properly.
I do feel that Naylor should try and make a little more effort to help this situation out. Even if its just calling the buyer or posting clear honest info.
As we know bad news travels "faster" than good news.
And I can tell you that with out "dyno Results" :)
Take care JMO

zipper06

I don't have a dog in this fight, but one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fuel system. I do not do carberated systems and haven't for years. but on any injection engine it doesn't take a dyno to tune, be it stacks, terminators, hat's ot blowers, it's all easier than tripping over a log. You never mentioned if it's alcohol engine or gas engine in your post :?: so i can't compare, i do have a few friends that run gas with b/blks that run 4.50's on gas none are 632's, mostly 572's, i also have friends that run 4.80's with small blks on alcohol @ 1800 lbs. It take 950 HP to run 4.60 @ 1800 lbs, but you never said what you wanted to run. If you had a Mopar alum. at 1800 lbs and it ran 4.64, you just added 100 lbs with the 632 steel blk. Like i said i don't have a dog in this fight, but no one i know has ever had an engine dyno'ed and we tune them our self at the track.
Now i do agree with you if Naylor said it will produse 1100 HP on a dyno, it should be dam close to those #'s, however i've never been in that situation, so i chose to not take sides.

JMO

Zip.

hammertime

I was joking .... you took it to another shop to dyno it, end of story... Dyno #'s are easily fudged, id have ZERO issues buying a engine from Naylor from what I've seen here ... sorry but I've seen it time and time again ... dyno's can different that much and more, simple as that. Im done with this topic now .. enjoy

Scooterz

I have no dog in this one either like Zip says. Maybe my thinking may be oversimplified due to my lack-of-knowledge about dynos, pricing & building race motors. But......

I do believe that a man should do what he says he is going to do however. If the motor cannot make reasonably close HP as agreed (including +/- dyno variance) why should buyer be satisfied @ 947HP even if the motor cost $1.00??

That said.....

It is really no different than how my company builds bows. Our dyno is a "chronograph" instead. We advertise a speed on each model based on an industry standard ("IBO" 30"/70lbs @ 5grns per lb & +/- 8 FPS). If a bow does not make speed within 8FPS, it is taken apart, tuned, rebuilt etc.... until it does... period. The motor may be a good deal @ the price; but it is not the deal buyer signed up for.

In spite of that......

Disputes arise in everyone's equipment/measuring with chronographs, scales, dynos, etc... but 143HP variance is BIG ... that is 13% less HP than advertised.

My Opinion: If an acceptable dyno variance is say 4 to 5%, then seller should compensate for the lost 8 or 9% agreed HP to buyer for example.

Am I oversimplifying this situation?? Am I missing something?

mrmopar622

Did you not read anything??? Did you not get the part where Naylor guaranteed a 1100+hp engine??? Did you not see what Naylor's mechanics told me when I went up there to see what was going on after 12 weeks??? They told me the brake was not working on the dyno & there had not been any engines dynoed since they had been there. When I confronted Jimmy on the phone he said they did not know what they were talking about(his own mechanics that work for him) He also said there was no need for me to worry about the dyno because he was not going to dyno it anyway because he did not include it in the price(invoice) & he was not doing it anyway.

NOW IT SHOULD BE CRYSTAL CLEAR WHY I HAD TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE TO GET THE DYNO DONE!!!

If you are so sure or anyone else that thinks the dyno results I posted will be 150 hp difference at another reputable shop & would like to make a nice bet I'll be happy to take em up on it. We can put the money up & meet at Pro Line Racing Engines in Atlanta, GA or Huntsville Engines in Huntsville, AL. Both of these are well known & their reputation is second to none!

If after all the proof not talk I have posted about Naylor and after you take a trip down & check out Naylor's outdated shop & lack of equipment, if you still wish to buy from him, knowing all this, be my guest!!

mrmopar622

Hi Zip,
I run 2 #1055(1475 cfm each) Ron's Terminators. I use the gray combination barrel valve & shutoff valve, I just had Jeremy at Ron's resize my pump up from 1/2 to a #1. The throttle response is unreal & you no longer have any cooling problems. As you know alcohol burns cooler so you can use a step hotter plug and make more power on the dyno after we got a baseline tune we pulled the AR3934 plugs out and put a set of AR3933 and it lost 11 hp on the dyno.

What some people don't understand about my reasons for the dyno is I wanted at least a 1100 hp engine and Naylor said with the Tunnelram on alcohol it would make 1140-1160 hp easy. So after paying a business to build me a 1100+hp engine not just an engine, I wanted to make sure I got what I paid for.

I've had a lot of people teach me how to run alcohol, if I can ever be of any help to you just let me know. Thanks

proactionheads

IF I WOULD HAVE GAVE HIM THE ENGINE HE WOULD HAVE BITCHED. I DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO GET ON HERE DEAL WITH PEOPLE LIKE BILLY LOOK AT HIS PIC AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT YOU GET. I AM POSTING THE 1ST EST THAT I WROTE HIM AND IT HAS 1000-1050 H.P NOT 1100 HE HAD TOM PUT THAT ON HIS INVOICE BEFORE HE LEFT AND I TOLD HIM THAT IT WILL NOT MAKE THAT. THE ENGINE WILL MAKE 1050 H.P I HAVE A DYNO SHEET HERE FROM SOME ONE THAT HAS THE SAME ENGINE WITH ONE CARB SV1 AND IS ON Q-16 AND HE HAD HIS BUDDY DYNO HIS ENGINE NOT ME,IT TOOK ME A WEEK OR SO TO GET THIS FROM HIM.BILLY HAS A 632 WITH 15+ COMP AND MANLEY GAS PORTED PISTONS AND GOOD RING PACKAGE AND TWO RONS AKY WITH DART 415CC M HEADS WITH WORK ON THEM FOR (FREE)!!!! AND A COMP 4-7 SWAP CAM 285-296 318-337 ON A 112 WITH 800+ LIFT DO YOU THINK IT ONLY MADE 950 H.P COME ON WE ARE NOT THAT DUMB (BILLY) HEADS HAD NO WORK FROM DART NO SEAT WORK OR NOTHING!!! INTAKE IN THE PICS WERE DONE FOR (FREE)!!! AND WE DRILLED IT FOR RONS INJECTORS FOR (FREE)!!! IN THE ENGINE WORK BECAUSE I WAS DOING THE HEADS AND OTHER WORK FOR FREE HE SAID HE WAS IN NO RUSH,THIS WAS HIS LAST BUILD. I WOULD HAVE DYNO THIS ENGINE BUT HE HAD ALL MOPAR BRAKETS ,VAC PUMP PULLY,CARB LINKAGE ECT. HE WANTED ME TO TAKE A FULL DAY AND PUT ON FOR FREE WHEN DOES THE FREE STOP!!!! HE NEVER THANKED ME ONE TIME FOR ANY THING JUST BITCHED AND HAD EVER ONE IN THE SHOP NOT WANTING TO WORK ON HIS ENGINE!!! I TRIED TO SELL HIM THE SHORT BLOCK LOOK AT THE INVOICE ON HERE AT A DAM GOOD DEAL TO GET HIM OFF MY BACK, NO HE WANTED THE COMPLETE ENGINE BECAUSE HE SAW THE GREAT DEAL HE WAS GETTING, LOOK ON HERE AND SEE IF ANY ONE WILL BUILD THAT ENGINE FOR THAT PRICE.WELL EVERY ONE THANK BILLY FOR MESSING IT UP FOR ALL THE OHER GOOD RACERS.

TheRabbit

zipper06

(quote)
Hi Zip,
I run 2 #1055(1475 cfm each) Ron's Terminators. I use the gray combination barrel valve & shutoff valve, I just had Jeremy at Ron's resize my pump up from 1/2 to a #1. The throttle response is unreal & you no longer have any cooling problems. As you know alcohol burns cooler so you can use a step hotter plug and make more power on the dyno after we got a baseline tune we pulled the AR3934 plugs out and put a set of AR3933 and it lost 11 hp on the dyno.

What some people don't understand about my reasons for the dyno is I wanted at least a 1100 hp engine and Naylor said with the Tunnelram on alcohol it would make 1140-1160 hp easy. So after paying a business to build me a 1100+hp engine not just an engine, I wanted to make sure I got what I paid for.

I've had a lot of people teach me how to run alcohol, if I can ever be of any help to you just let me know. Thanks

I've been running alcohol since the early 80's in everything from blown 540's to blown sm/blks'
I also run a rons injection on my 377" motor right now, you definately did the right thing by changing the pump to a -1, although i don't run Ron's pumps, i use DSR or Enderle pumps. I run a -1 on anything larger than 400 cu in and on the blower motors i use an Enderle 110 or 990 At this time i have 4 fuel pumps in my shop.
My first blower motor was running in 1964 a blown sm/blk on gas (the only one on gas that i've ever ran) and i've ran everything from Top Alcohol funny car on down, but no dragsters at all. I'm a big fan of stacks injection, but as i said they are all easy to tune, yes the plugs play a big factor in alcohol, mostly i run NGK, but i also use autolite plugs in the range you mentioned.
The terminators are a good choice, next and maybe better IMO is stacks
You want to buy a nice set of polished 3" Kinsler stacks for that engine already setup for alcohol.

Just kiddin they are not for sale, i've been thinking about building a 565 or 572 BB for my very heavy Malibu.

Zip.