Beware of Richard Norman in Hammond, IN.!!
11-22-2009, 02:01 PM
#1
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Beware of Richard Norman in Hammond, IN.!!
I need some help from the forum. I have been dealing with richard norman in a deal to buy my '67 mcamis t/s vette. We came to an agreement on a price after many many phone calls and pics of numerous points of the car were sent. He mailed me a personal check for 500.00 to hold the car for 10-14 days in order for him to get his finances in order. I know not to take a personal check for any goods to be exchanged but didn't think much about doing the deposit this way. Of coarse the check would have to clear his bank before releasing the car to him. I first deposited the check and it came back NSF. I talked with him and was told to run it again and the next time it came back with a stop payment on it. He has since acted like a coward and will not answer or return my calls to tell me what happen. I have charges with my bank now do to his FAKE MONEY. So what i am asking of the forum is; do i have any chance of turning this check over to the authorities and getting any kind of reimbursement or self satisfaction? Thanks, Keith
11-22-2009, 02:37 PM
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Well how loing has this been going on?? If it has been going on for awhile then what I would do is just go ahead and chock up the money from the bank charges and move on my merry way. It is better to lose a few bucks then a lot. Thats is my own opinion
11-22-2009, 02:51 PM
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It has been about 10 days since i last got the check back from the bank and probably 3 days since i tried to call him last. It isn't so much the deposit as it is the point. He didn't get something for nothing but did cost me some bank fees and lots of time(many of the phone calls came while i was at work). I am curious if i turn the check over to the authorities if it would be the same as if he were writing a check to walmart. Is it a felony or mistemenor offence? Thanks, Keith
11-22-2009, 03:46 PM
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Check!
Keith,
UNFORTUNATLY,this is the Way of the New World,Isnt amazing how you can send a MILLION Pictures and spend Hours on the Phone and Computer putting a Deal together?Then as Quick as a GunShot they are GONE!
Maybe Hes on The FEDERAL TASK Force,you know its OK for them Guys to pull this S#!T!At least they think so?
Take the 30-35.00 Charges as an EXPERIENCE,could have been worse?
It just Realy BURNS My AZZ that they pull this and Its OK!
Later
G 8)
UNFORTUNATLY,this is the Way of the New World,Isnt amazing how you can send a MILLION Pictures and spend Hours on the Phone and Computer putting a Deal together?Then as Quick as a GunShot they are GONE!
Maybe Hes on The FEDERAL TASK Force,you know its OK for them Guys to pull this S#!T!At least they think so?
Take the 30-35.00 Charges as an EXPERIENCE,could have been worse?
It just Realy BURNS My AZZ that they pull this and Its OK!
Later
G 8)
11-22-2009, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SPRUELL1
It has been about 10 days since i last got the check back from the bank and probably 3 days since i tried to call him last. It isn't so much the deposit as it is the point. He didn't get something for nothing but did cost me some bank fees and lots of time(many of the phone calls came while i was at work). I am curious if i turn the check over to the authorities if it would be the same as if he were writing a check to walmart. Is it a felony or mistemenor offence? Thanks, Keith
Now, and I am not sure of this, but I am going to bet there are interstate laws that would address this type of thing. Id also guess under federal law.
Sooooooooooooo you need to do some Internet research, find out whether this might meet the base definition of racketeering. Then report to the FBI.
And when someone says you went to great lengths over a small amount, remind them you have no idea the scope of his scams or potential illegal activities, so reporting this is your duty.
Id guess you could at least extract $50 of payback.
And when you do- send him a christmas card and tell him I said hi.
Scorp
11-22-2009, 05:59 PM
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SORRY SCORP, it does not work that way... at least in New Mexico.
As a check and fraud crimes investigator of 21 years, I can absolutely confirm that in order for there to be a crime involved in this, there HAS TO be something of tangible material or services value received by the suspect issuing the check.
A check that has been taken on hold for downpayment, but NOTHING was ever transferred to the suspect, is not worth the toilet paper it was written on.
AND, circumstantial fees incurred by trying to cash this check prior to any transfer of goods or services does not constitute criminal intent on the part of the suspect.
NOTE! Future advice to EVERYONE... if you take the check to YOUR bank,
and ask them to run a "clearance check" on it BEFORE depositing it, the clerks will graciously do it for you as a security courtesy to make sure the check is not stolen or bogus before any attempts to complete an actual transaction causes a giant nightmare for many people.
Your bank would rather stop a fraud attempt BEFORE it happens than to let you (and them) become a victim with weeks of criminal investigations and prosecutions. I cannot remember all the hundreds of "Pre-Screening" investigations I worked with the banks.
Sorry Spruell, the fees were incurred because of YOUR actions, not his, and the cops, the District Attorney and the banks will not be able to help you... again, at least in New Mexico.
If your state is different I would be highly surprised, as most financial laws apply equally and consistantly across the entire nation.
Fortunately this was a cheap lesson learned, and I wish the entire world would do away with checks altogether.
Next time insist the buyer completes an electronic bank transfer into your account which will be guaranteed and protected from insufficient or reversal games, unless you choose to return it to the buyer for some reason. If he does not have the agreed upon funds in a legitimate bank account to make such transaction... RUN, RUN, RUN... because he most likely will never have the remaining money to complete the deal anyway.
Jim
As a check and fraud crimes investigator of 21 years, I can absolutely confirm that in order for there to be a crime involved in this, there HAS TO be something of tangible material or services value received by the suspect issuing the check.
A check that has been taken on hold for downpayment, but NOTHING was ever transferred to the suspect, is not worth the toilet paper it was written on.
AND, circumstantial fees incurred by trying to cash this check prior to any transfer of goods or services does not constitute criminal intent on the part of the suspect.
NOTE! Future advice to EVERYONE... if you take the check to YOUR bank,
and ask them to run a "clearance check" on it BEFORE depositing it, the clerks will graciously do it for you as a security courtesy to make sure the check is not stolen or bogus before any attempts to complete an actual transaction causes a giant nightmare for many people.
Your bank would rather stop a fraud attempt BEFORE it happens than to let you (and them) become a victim with weeks of criminal investigations and prosecutions. I cannot remember all the hundreds of "Pre-Screening" investigations I worked with the banks.
Sorry Spruell, the fees were incurred because of YOUR actions, not his, and the cops, the District Attorney and the banks will not be able to help you... again, at least in New Mexico.
If your state is different I would be highly surprised, as most financial laws apply equally and consistantly across the entire nation.
Fortunately this was a cheap lesson learned, and I wish the entire world would do away with checks altogether.
Next time insist the buyer completes an electronic bank transfer into your account which will be guaranteed and protected from insufficient or reversal games, unless you choose to return it to the buyer for some reason. If he does not have the agreed upon funds in a legitimate bank account to make such transaction... RUN, RUN, RUN... because he most likely will never have the remaining money to complete the deal anyway.
Jim
11-23-2009, 04:19 AM
#9
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Originally Posted by DRTRCR22
SORRY SCORP, it does not work that way... at least in New Mexico.
As a check and fraud crimes investigator of 21 years, I can absolutely confirm that in order for there to be a crime involved in this, there HAS TO be something of tangible material or services value received by the suspect issuing the check.
A check that has been taken on hold for downpayment, but NOTHING was ever transferred to the suspect, is not worth the toilet paper it was written on.
AND, circumstantial fees incurred by trying to cash this check prior to any transfer of goods or services does not constitute criminal intent on the part of the suspect.
NOTE! Future advice to EVERYONE... if you take the check to YOUR bank,
and ask them to run a "clearance check" on it BEFORE depositing it, the clerks will graciously do it for you as a security courtesy to make sure the check is not stolen or bogus before any attempts to complete an actual transaction causes a giant nightmare for many people.
Your bank would rather stop a fraud attempt BEFORE it happens than to let you (and them) become a victim with weeks of criminal investigations and prosecutions. I cannot remember all the hundreds of "Pre-Screening" investigations I worked with the banks.
Sorry Spruell, the fees were incurred because of YOUR actions, not his, and the cops, the District Attorney and the banks will not be able to help you... again, at least in New Mexico.
If your state is different I would be highly surprised, as most financial laws apply equally and consistantly across the entire nation.
Fortunately this was a cheap lesson learned, and I wish the entire world would do away with checks altogether.
Next time insist the buyer completes an electronic bank transfer into your account which will be guaranteed and protected from insufficient or reversal games, unless you choose to return it to the buyer for some reason. If he does not have the agreed upon funds in a legitimate bank account to make such transaction... RUN, RUN, RUN... because he most likely will never have the remaining money to complete the deal anyway.
Jim
As a check and fraud crimes investigator of 21 years, I can absolutely confirm that in order for there to be a crime involved in this, there HAS TO be something of tangible material or services value received by the suspect issuing the check.
A check that has been taken on hold for downpayment, but NOTHING was ever transferred to the suspect, is not worth the toilet paper it was written on.
AND, circumstantial fees incurred by trying to cash this check prior to any transfer of goods or services does not constitute criminal intent on the part of the suspect.
NOTE! Future advice to EVERYONE... if you take the check to YOUR bank,
and ask them to run a "clearance check" on it BEFORE depositing it, the clerks will graciously do it for you as a security courtesy to make sure the check is not stolen or bogus before any attempts to complete an actual transaction causes a giant nightmare for many people.
Your bank would rather stop a fraud attempt BEFORE it happens than to let you (and them) become a victim with weeks of criminal investigations and prosecutions. I cannot remember all the hundreds of "Pre-Screening" investigations I worked with the banks.
Sorry Spruell, the fees were incurred because of YOUR actions, not his, and the cops, the District Attorney and the banks will not be able to help you... again, at least in New Mexico.
If your state is different I would be highly surprised, as most financial laws apply equally and consistantly across the entire nation.
Fortunately this was a cheap lesson learned, and I wish the entire world would do away with checks altogether.
Next time insist the buyer completes an electronic bank transfer into your account which will be guaranteed and protected from insufficient or reversal games, unless you choose to return it to the buyer for some reason. If he does not have the agreed upon funds in a legitimate bank account to make such transaction... RUN, RUN, RUN... because he most likely will never have the remaining money to complete the deal anyway.
Jim
So if you have a verbal agreement, supported my electronic communication, you are saying this does not constitute a contract, and that the check is not prepayment owed of the amount due?
Essentially that seems like its saying that no contract is enforceable if its not in writing.
So:
* An agreement was made between two parties.- check
*A price was determined-check
*Arrangements were made for pick up and delivery-check
*terms and conditions albeit primitive were determined-check
*A prepayment of the amount due was sent and received-check
*A bad check was issued- check
But in new Mexico this is NOT a contract?
Respectfully Jim, I am going to take my chance in the Court. It costs $25 to file in Small claims and its cheap to contact LE.
However, its easy enough to get a legal opinion, and I will run by my Corporate Counsel.
BTW- how does the issuance of a bad check equate to Spruell's action if he did not write it?
I appreciate that you were a fraud investigator, I'm just a lowly Finance guy with an MBA in business-
Scorp
11-23-2009, 09:07 AM
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Ok Scorp, lets clarify something here... you are talking about TWO different issues.
#1 - you are talking about criminal intent of issuing worthless checks with intent to commit a crime. In that matter I confirm there will be no CRIMINAL prosecution aginst the buyer. The electronic communication is just preliminary sales negotiations, not a legal and binding issue until the final deal has been COMPLETED.
#2 - you are talking about a contract agreement, which is NOT a criminal matter, it is a CIVIL complaint for which NO JAIL TIME or CRIMINAL RECORD can be imposed by the courts. These court hearings are intended to correct a wrong by someone which DEOS NOT violate the criminal statues of law. It is almost alway for MONETARY DAMAGES ONLY.
Now, as far as the old "Gentleman's Handshake Agreement" rule... well, some states still recognise that grandfathered law, some don't.
Yes, the check is prepayment of the amount owed, but the check is not legally binding UNTIL the buyer receives the goods or services for conversion to his own use.
The check can be returned or torn up at any time by the seller, and the goods not delivered to the buyer (as long as the check is not cashed)without repercussion from the buyer.
The buyer can "Stop Payment" on that check at any time as long as he HAS NOT RECEIVED any goods or services of value for that check payment.
I agree with your checklist, however the issues are "grey area" argument and does not fall under the criminal codes for prosecution of a crime.
Now, as far as filiing a claim on small claimes court, yes you can do that for CIVIL wrongs compalaint, but let me clue you into this...
IF the judge sides with you and makes the buyer pay up the $500 deposit the check was intended for, he will also force you to complete the original sales agreement and will force the buyer to pay up the entire sales amount in full within so many days, and before you must deliver the item to the buyer.
This is not a problem on your end, because that is what you wanted all along, but THAT IS ALL the judge can do... he CANNOT punish the buyer for issuing an issuficient funds check to HOLD the item until he could pay the remainder of the full amount, or the WHOLE amount upon receipt while asking you to return or tear up that check.
That worthless check is no more than an "I-Owe-You" note to hold that item, until a transfer of goods or services is completed... UNLESS, the original agreement was for a "Non-Refundable Deposit", in which that opens up another whole can of worms the judge will have to take into consideration. In some states that is legal, some it is not.
Hey, I appreciate the debate... I am just trying to help, no problem. Good luck on the civil case, and PLEASE let me know how it turns out. I am curious how the courts rule in your jurisdiction.
You will probably prevail in completing this sale in full, but don't expect a black-eye on the buyer when it is all said and done...
Jim
#1 - you are talking about criminal intent of issuing worthless checks with intent to commit a crime. In that matter I confirm there will be no CRIMINAL prosecution aginst the buyer. The electronic communication is just preliminary sales negotiations, not a legal and binding issue until the final deal has been COMPLETED.
#2 - you are talking about a contract agreement, which is NOT a criminal matter, it is a CIVIL complaint for which NO JAIL TIME or CRIMINAL RECORD can be imposed by the courts. These court hearings are intended to correct a wrong by someone which DEOS NOT violate the criminal statues of law. It is almost alway for MONETARY DAMAGES ONLY.
Now, as far as the old "Gentleman's Handshake Agreement" rule... well, some states still recognise that grandfathered law, some don't.
Yes, the check is prepayment of the amount owed, but the check is not legally binding UNTIL the buyer receives the goods or services for conversion to his own use.
The check can be returned or torn up at any time by the seller, and the goods not delivered to the buyer (as long as the check is not cashed)without repercussion from the buyer.
The buyer can "Stop Payment" on that check at any time as long as he HAS NOT RECEIVED any goods or services of value for that check payment.
I agree with your checklist, however the issues are "grey area" argument and does not fall under the criminal codes for prosecution of a crime.
Now, as far as filiing a claim on small claimes court, yes you can do that for CIVIL wrongs compalaint, but let me clue you into this...
IF the judge sides with you and makes the buyer pay up the $500 deposit the check was intended for, he will also force you to complete the original sales agreement and will force the buyer to pay up the entire sales amount in full within so many days, and before you must deliver the item to the buyer.
This is not a problem on your end, because that is what you wanted all along, but THAT IS ALL the judge can do... he CANNOT punish the buyer for issuing an issuficient funds check to HOLD the item until he could pay the remainder of the full amount, or the WHOLE amount upon receipt while asking you to return or tear up that check.
That worthless check is no more than an "I-Owe-You" note to hold that item, until a transfer of goods or services is completed... UNLESS, the original agreement was for a "Non-Refundable Deposit", in which that opens up another whole can of worms the judge will have to take into consideration. In some states that is legal, some it is not.
Hey, I appreciate the debate... I am just trying to help, no problem. Good luck on the civil case, and PLEASE let me know how it turns out. I am curious how the courts rule in your jurisdiction.
You will probably prevail in completing this sale in full, but don't expect a black-eye on the buyer when it is all said and done...
Jim
