Block Grout?
12-22-2007, 08:06 AM
#1
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Block Grout?
I was having a debate the other day with a friend of mine with a machine shop about when to add grout to the block.
Before machining?
My theory is that deck plates should be installed and then the grout installed and allowed to cure before machine work, boring, honing, etc....
To me it only makes sense that if deck plates are installed after the grout process the cylinder walls would pull away from the grout when torqued. Defeating the purpose of the grout all together.
After machining?
He thought it should be done after ward.
What are your thoughts :?:
Before machining?
My theory is that deck plates should be installed and then the grout installed and allowed to cure before machine work, boring, honing, etc....
To me it only makes sense that if deck plates are installed after the grout process the cylinder walls would pull away from the grout when torqued. Defeating the purpose of the grout all together.
After machining?
He thought it should be done after ward.
What are your thoughts :?:
12-22-2007, 09:12 AM
#2
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I'm in the same boat. One of my buddies does his before and machining is done and had good luck. The other says most of the ones he has done was after the machining was done and has had no issue's. So what is the proper way or does it even matter... :?:
12-22-2007, 09:54 AM
#3
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I have done 2 blocks with hard block...Both were done the same way and I feel both worked very well..
1st block was a 396 for a Nova (stocker)
Bolted the main caps on and torqued them up
Filled 1 side of the motor and bolted a set of steel heads on...then we did the same to the other side
2nd motor was a 100 over BBC (S/ST)
did exactly the same thing...the only real difference was the 505 motor had head and main studs.
I think 1 over the most important things to remember is that the insides of the block have to be clean. I had both blocks sit in the hot tank solution at work over the weekend and then washed them out with hot soapy water, rinsed it out with the pressure washer and then put the motor in our bake oven and dried it out over night... Lastly just to be completely sure I sprayed the insides of the water passages with an electrical degreaser and contact cleaner.. I know it may sound excessive but I firgured if the metal was oil/grease and rust free I would have the best results.. I think I did
1st block was a 396 for a Nova (stocker)
Bolted the main caps on and torqued them up
Filled 1 side of the motor and bolted a set of steel heads on...then we did the same to the other side
2nd motor was a 100 over BBC (S/ST)
did exactly the same thing...the only real difference was the 505 motor had head and main studs.
I think 1 over the most important things to remember is that the insides of the block have to be clean. I had both blocks sit in the hot tank solution at work over the weekend and then washed them out with hot soapy water, rinsed it out with the pressure washer and then put the motor in our bake oven and dried it out over night... Lastly just to be completely sure I sprayed the insides of the water passages with an electrical degreaser and contact cleaner.. I know it may sound excessive but I firgured if the metal was oil/grease and rust free I would have the best results.. I think I did
12-22-2007, 09:58 AM
#4
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Don't use concrete grout. It shirks big time and does not adhere to the cylinder walls.
Use Hard Block and it won't pull away. I think it would be better to have a set of deck plates bolted to the block when it is filled and left there for the maching operations, but that is usually not practicle and most deck plates are solid. So you level the block after cleaning it with a muratic acid-water solution and letting all that dry, you level the block both ays and pour one side slowly while getting a helper to beat it with a rubber hammer. Let it sit a full day and repaet the process on the other bank.
There are some other epoxies to use but never use a concrete grout.
Ed
Use Hard Block and it won't pull away. I think it would be better to have a set of deck plates bolted to the block when it is filled and left there for the maching operations, but that is usually not practicle and most deck plates are solid. So you level the block after cleaning it with a muratic acid-water solution and letting all that dry, you level the block both ays and pour one side slowly while getting a helper to beat it with a rubber hammer. Let it sit a full day and repaet the process on the other bank.
There are some other epoxies to use but never use a concrete grout.
Ed
12-22-2007, 10:42 AM
#5
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Originally Posted by edvancedengines
Don't use concrete grout. It shirks big time and does not adhere to the cylinder walls.
Use Hard Block and it won't pull away. I think it would be better to have a set of deck plates bolted to the block when it is filled and left there for the maching operations, but that is usually not practicle and most deck plates are solid. So you level the block after cleaning it with a muratic acid-water solution and letting all that dry, you level the block both ays and pour one side slowly while getting a helper to beat it with a rubber hammer. Let it sit a full day and repaet the process on the other bank.
There are some other epoxies to use but never use a concrete grout.
Ed
Use Hard Block and it won't pull away. I think it would be better to have a set of deck plates bolted to the block when it is filled and left there for the maching operations, but that is usually not practicle and most deck plates are solid. So you level the block after cleaning it with a muratic acid-water solution and letting all that dry, you level the block both ays and pour one side slowly while getting a helper to beat it with a rubber hammer. Let it sit a full day and repaet the process on the other bank.
There are some other epoxies to use but never use a concrete grout.
Ed
Have you ever used bolt set as a filler? I know a person who has used this in the past but i'm not sure of the success, it was used on sbc 400's. It is a concrete product used to set bolts in concrete, a grey epoxy with expanding qualities that fills voids. He did do this before boring and finish honing of the block.
Just curious, because it's about 1/2 the cost of hard block, my 400's are filled with hard block.
Zip.
12-22-2007, 11:31 AM
#6
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Just to clarify, I would certainly not use or recommend concrete or tile grout to fill a block. universally everybody just seems to call it grout.
The scenario I described above is with hard block and I really wasn't as specific as I should have been about the procedure we used so here you go. I think the if the hard block is allowed to cure before the deck plates are installed that the cylinder wall will distort when plates are torqued and pull away from the filler. This defeats the purpose IMO.
My 400 block had plates installed before the filler cured, even though the machinist didn't want to do it that way.
We leveled the block, torqued the main caps, poured the filler in and used a vibratory device to shake the air pockets out, and then torqued plates, allowed it to set 48 hrs and then repated the same process on the other bank.
The scenario I described above is with hard block and I really wasn't as specific as I should have been about the procedure we used so here you go. I think the if the hard block is allowed to cure before the deck plates are installed that the cylinder wall will distort when plates are torqued and pull away from the filler. This defeats the purpose IMO.
My 400 block had plates installed before the filler cured, even though the machinist didn't want to do it that way.
We leveled the block, torqued the main caps, poured the filler in and used a vibratory device to shake the air pockets out, and then torqued plates, allowed it to set 48 hrs and then repated the same process on the other bank.
12-22-2007, 11:45 AM
#7
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Originally Posted by zipper06
Originally Posted by edvancedengines
Don't use concrete grout. It shirks big time and does not adhere to the cylinder walls.
Use Hard Block and it won't pull away. I think it would be better to have a set of deck plates bolted to the block when it is filled and left there for the maching operations, but that is usually not practicle and most deck plates are solid. So you level the block after cleaning it with a muratic acid-water solution and letting all that dry, you level the block both ays and pour one side slowly while getting a helper to beat it with a rubber hammer. Let it sit a full day and repaet the process on the other bank.
There are some other epoxies to use but never use a concrete grout.
Ed
Use Hard Block and it won't pull away. I think it would be better to have a set of deck plates bolted to the block when it is filled and left there for the maching operations, but that is usually not practicle and most deck plates are solid. So you level the block after cleaning it with a muratic acid-water solution and letting all that dry, you level the block both ays and pour one side slowly while getting a helper to beat it with a rubber hammer. Let it sit a full day and repaet the process on the other bank.
There are some other epoxies to use but never use a concrete grout.
Ed
Have you ever used bolt set as a filler? I know a person who has used this in the past but i'm not sure of the success, it was used on sbc 400's. It is a concrete product used to set bolts in concrete, a grey epoxy with expanding qualities that fills voids. He did do this before boring and finish honing of the block.
Just curious, because it's about 1/2 the cost of hard block, my 400's are filled with hard block.
Zip.
12-22-2007, 03:02 PM
#8
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I haveused two part Devcon liquid steeel too. That is what we all used when everyone began filling blocks. Can you imagine how much money that was costing us to make our cylinder walls stiffer. So to me Hard Block is cheap.
Ed
Ed
12-24-2007, 04:52 AM
#9
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I usualy do it before machining. Recently, I did it for the first time, after the block was going to recieve no further machining or honing. Its my own personal engine, so, I figure, if it turns out to be a problem, then I won;t have a mad customer, but, I will say, after filling the block, and re-measuring, no dimension changed even one tenth. Had the mains tqed. Measured the cylinders before and after, ZERO change in size, measured the mains, ZERO change in size.
If you read the bottle, I used Moroso block filler, which I like better, its not as chunky, and flows better thru voids and hard to reach areas, where there is no hole to pour it in, so, you have to move it around with a wire, to fill in spots you can;t access. I have used Hard block plenty of times also, just prefer the Moroso stuff. But, my point is, it says the stuff is non shrinking, and, it doesn't expand either, so, with that said, its not putting any mechanical strain on the cylinders, or mains, by tweaking on them, due to the stuff shrinking, or expanding, so how can it be an issue? The only thing you do need to worry about, if you do it after the machining, is that the bores are a bit bigger, by about a thou or so, .001 in piston to wall clearance. Due to hotter running cylinders, which causes the pistons to swell a tiny bit more. My block is a used piece, I had, that was .060 out, and after freshening the bores with a tq plate, they were about .001 looser than what the piston man. calls for. The original plan wasn't to use the fill, but after I got into the build, I put it in there.
Frank
Advanced Performance
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If you read the bottle, I used Moroso block filler, which I like better, its not as chunky, and flows better thru voids and hard to reach areas, where there is no hole to pour it in, so, you have to move it around with a wire, to fill in spots you can;t access. I have used Hard block plenty of times also, just prefer the Moroso stuff. But, my point is, it says the stuff is non shrinking, and, it doesn't expand either, so, with that said, its not putting any mechanical strain on the cylinders, or mains, by tweaking on them, due to the stuff shrinking, or expanding, so how can it be an issue? The only thing you do need to worry about, if you do it after the machining, is that the bores are a bit bigger, by about a thou or so, .001 in piston to wall clearance. Due to hotter running cylinders, which causes the pistons to swell a tiny bit more. My block is a used piece, I had, that was .060 out, and after freshening the bores with a tq plate, they were about .001 looser than what the piston man. calls for. The original plan wasn't to use the fill, but after I got into the build, I put it in there.
Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com
12-24-2007, 05:10 PM
#10
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Did you see any measurements change after the torque plates were removed?
Have you ever checked the bore with a dial indicator before deck plates and then afterward? Most of the time the cylinder roundness will change once torque plates are installed. This was my reason for adding the plates before filler sets and before machining.
It's interesting to hear different view points, that's what I was hoping for.
Bill
Have you ever checked the bore with a dial indicator before deck plates and then afterward? Most of the time the cylinder roundness will change once torque plates are installed. This was my reason for adding the plates before filler sets and before machining.
It's interesting to hear different view points, that's what I was hoping for.
Bill
