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Thread: Petition to NHRA & SFI to allow M/S cages in 7.50 &

  1. #1
    Senior Member DYNO OPERATOR
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    Petition to NHRA & SFI to allow M/S cages in 7.50 &

    Here are two links at Yellow Bullet about this. What is bringing this up is NHRA is talking about cutting back certification of Mild Steel cages to an 8.50 or slower this next season, according to inside sources.

    We contend that properly welded and fabricated Mild Steel is safer than the brittle .083 C/M is.

    This petition has been signed by aat least one NHRA Tech Inspector already.

    Discussion link
    http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=35627

    Petition link;
    http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=35660


    My thoughts about this;

    I know this,
    I see remains of cages after serious crashes made from mild steeel and the cages are intact in one peice just bent slightly.

    I see remains of serious crashes of cages made of the .083 Chromolly and I see cage material torn or sheared. I see jagged tube ends from the tearing. I see welds or material surrounding the welds fail.

    I like light weight but if I am in a serious crash I would feel much more secure knowing my cage isn't going to break up.

    In the older days the C/M cages were mandated to be .095. Now they are .083. What is there to make them safer except more tubes used now. Those same more tubes are now used in Mild Steel cages and that is the safest in my opinion. Also formerly Mild Steel Cages were mandated to be .125 wall, now most are .135 wall.

    Most newer M/S Cars are built to a spec with tube bending and welding construction of bar orientation to rival or look like a Bickel or Quartermaster C/M Cage and chassis. The tubing strenth is in there. The builders are using Prints from those Professional Chassis Builders.

    Ed

    Post this at other forums and boards if you agree, please. [/url]
    " Let all things that hath breath, praise the Lord. Praise Ye the Lord" Psalms 150 vs 6.

  2. #2
    Senior Member EXPERT BUILDER
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    Hi Ed,
    I read the artical that was linked to montys post, but it seems to deal with hardened 4130 vs normalized 4130 as used in funny cars.....
    am I missing something here? :shock:
    I will read through the many pages of montys post later tonight.... dang, why do I always find these posts after 10 pages..... :shock: :lol:

    Ed
    Ed

  3. #3
    Ed, mild steel is the logical choice for a cage. But, too many racers want to be able to say, "I got me a moly cage." Well, whoop-dee-do!

    The difference between two 20 foot lengths of 2 inch tubing, one of 0.135 wall mild steel and the other of 0.083 wall moly, is about 17.5 pounds. Wow! Now, that's really a big weight savings! (Tongue is firmly embedded in cheek.)

  4. #4
    Member JUNIOR BUILDER
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    Ready for a long winded story to better understand how we got to where we are?

    In the early days the rules read 2 by 3 of .120 1000 series steel or it's equivalent. This meant you could switch to round tubing or lighter gauge rectangle tubing if it was larger, or if you changed alloys that had more strength, they could be smaller thinner and lighter. I personally seen a stainless frame Gasser under these rules. The T/F and AA/F jumped right on this because they ran weight to cubic inches then. A 400 inch engine was big, so the ability to get rigidity and light weight was more than anyone could pass up. By the 70s if you didn't have a C/M chassis on a dragster, you didn't have a good dragster. From there every one figured if the big boys have it it must be good. What they over looked in the equivalence thing was while it did have stronger quality's it had short comings also. The difficulty to weld properly may be the biggest but being brittle it was prone to work hardening and cracking with just normal use. It also transmits force threw the frame very well. This is hard on the driver and if there is a spot by the weld that has changed temper you have a good place to fail. That rigid steel is transmitting force right to that weak spot.

    I was always under the understanding that 4130 changed hardness at 660 degrees and it takes 1200 to get a puddle going. Now your welder manufacture says TIG weld it but heat it slow up to the puddle then weld it slow and cool it slow. the bead should be convex not concave (that's an outie not an innie) and a gusset on joints is advisable. The FAA says oxy/ Actt. torch is the preferred method. This makes your weld go slow. Don't try this at home, they pay more for their torch body and tip than we would for a good HVLP spray gun. Some swear by preheating and wrapping with asbestos wrap for slowing cooling. Depending on how hot you got it and how slow you cooled it, it could anneal it. This is softer. They sell an annealed 4130 it is slow cooled in a furnace.

    I have a friend that was a Maxim sprint car chassis dealer and he repaired them. I sometimes helped him when he was behind. the failures was always was with in an inch of the weld. These are top of the line chassis. that has to tell you something. He also restores old open wheel cars. they where made of mild steel. They bent and crumpled up, but did not fail.

    Some of this could be how it was put together. Where the intersections where if there was a gusset ect.

    Dragsters with long runs of tubing and using the chassis for a suspension may need 4130. But does a door car?

    The fact is there are more alloys available than 1000 and 4130. If all buildings aren't built the same, why should race cars. That's engineering.

    I sometimes believe the rules committee has self serving motives as they are all chassis builders. There is an article that says a couple guys was dismissed, as they had no dog in the fight. Meaning they where not active chassis builders any longer.
    The older I get the less i know for sure Dennis

  5. #5
    Senior Member DYNO OPERATOR
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    WEll,
    I gues in a loose way, I do have a dog in this fight. Sorta. I am a very smaltime engine builder with most of my customer base being low buck or middle class working people who love racing and are doing this as they can afford it.

    Most of these cutomers have cars that are at least well built but are built of M/S primarily becuase of the much higer cost of full C?M. Some of these cars are already certified to 7.50 and are well constructed but are not C/M. They get faced with the delima now of when their cars get quicker than the certification, to try to wing it and hope they don't get caught, or to fully update their caar to be C/M which most can;'t afford, or to buy another car either new or used that was built with C?M and can certify lower. OR just give up or make their cars to be slower.

    NOW THE PROBLEM IS;
    Rumers are pretty strong that even their 7.50 certifivcation is in jeopardy of getting cut back to be a 8.50 by the rules committes of NHRA - SFI, and they will have to either quit racing or just go slower.

    There are tons of good cars made of M/S that are certified as 7.50. What happens to all of those guys who are running now at 7.50 to 8.40 when their cars will no longer be legal? SEll them in what will be a flooded market of other cars like them?

    These guys can not afford to step up and buy C/M cars.

    Besides all the financial hardship this rule change would cause, I really believe with no engineering background, to prove anything with that a well constructed 7.50 M/S car is as safe as it can get.

    I know for a fact that over the years several Pro Stock cars of 4130 have had frame and weld failures. If that also happens with those cars certified to 7.50 I am not awre of any of the cars I know of breaking frames or welds breaking.

    Ed
    " Let all things that hath breath, praise the Lord. Praise Ye the Lord" Psalms 150 vs 6.

  6. #6
    Member JUNIOR BUILDER
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    I agree with you Ed. There is a big portion of racers that eat beany weeny, mac and cheese and don't have a suit to wear to a family wedding jut to go racing. A lot of us had to choose between sending our kids to college and maybe retiring or racing. This 7.50 rule will push out some more racers.

    I really don't like what drag racing did to it's self over the years. In the 50s it was about the hot rodder. Guy took a car and his intelligent s and made it better and faster. There wasn't a lot of technology for sale, he did his own. Then it escalated threw the 60s and by early 70s NHRA said whoa, there aren't enough smart guys to run the record times. Bracket racing came about. This irritated me so much, I went circle track racing, but after a little thought, I said well it may not be bad for the sport. It should allow the budget racer an equal platform. Then came T/D T/F Pro Comp Pro Gas ext with throttle stops, boxes power enough to go better than a second under the bracket and taking the stripe. All driving the price higher than it was. Look at Econo class. You would figure half the engine = half the cost. Try half the engine at twice the cost. Then there is the Stock and SS classes. Show me a bill of sale from a Factory dealership for some of the parts used. Then show us the cars equipped with them parts on the show room floor.

    It seems the competitive nature of the racer and the parts suppliers making new tech for sale every day, and the rules committee for allowing the new tech, all have a part in cost escalation.

    For the guys that say that is just the way it is, you right. that is the way it is and the way it has been. Everyone has heard that history repeats it's self if they ever took a history class. Let me tell you a story about racing. This is a different kind, but Midget racing is where I started. I was just a kid but would wash parts, clean the car or mow the grass just to be close to this old grumpy guy's garage. He had stories of the hey days of Midgets in the 30s and 40s where there would be over a hundreds competitors show up for a race and in places like Soldier Field in Chicago there would be over 50,000 in the stands. The people would come to see their local guy do well. He was the mechanic in the garage down the street or the electrician that wired their house. Two things hurt that sport. One the Offy engine and two the Curtis chassis. This priced the little guy out and when they left so did their fans. This same process is happening to Sprint cars now and will in Late model stocks soon. If someone told me in the 70s that you would have to travel all over the country to run a Late Model, I would have said your nuts.

    I don't know what the answer is but when a go kart can rack up a tire bill that looks like a 410 winged sprint car for a week end there is something wrong. The worst part is we know what is going on and still spend the money if we can.
    The older I get the less i know for sure Dennis

  7. #7
    Senior Member RACING JUNKIE lively's Avatar
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    THE ANSWER IS NHRA IS NOT THE ONLY SANCTIONING BODY!!!!!---MORE AND MORE OUTLAW TRACKS ARE APPEARING BECAUSE OF THE BIG MONEY :twisted: / BIG SPONSER :twisted: RULES THEY HAVE DEVELOPED OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS----TILL RACERS GET TOGETHER AND SCREAM LOUD ENOUGH IT WON'T CHANGE :twisted: :twisted: !!!!

    I HAVE BUILT AND RACED ALL KINDS OF STREET AND DRAG AND STOCK CARS OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS AND IT IS ALWAYS THE MONEY PEOPLE THAT GET THE RULES CHANGED TO FAVOR THEM AND THERE SPONSERS ops: ops: ops:

    THAT SUCKS BIG TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    EVERYBODY SCREAMS SAFETY FIRST BUT I HAVE SEEN TOOOOO MANY CARS COMING APART IN WRECKS THE LAST FEW SEASONS TO PROVE THE SAFETY PEOPLE HAVE THERE ACT TOGETHER WHEN THEY CHANGE FRAME DESIGNS AND THICKNESS

    A FRAME AND CAGE THAT BREAKS APART IS USELESS IN 99% OF THE WRECKS---- :? :? :?

    IF THEY KEEP CHASING THE LITTLE GUY AWAY HE[ I REPEAT HE WILL GO BACK TO THE STREETS AND RACE--WHICH IS VERY/ VERY SCARY AND DANGEROUS :evil: :evil: :evil:

    MY 2 CENTS WORTH---LIVELY[EX STREET RACERS FOR SEVERAL YEARS]


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