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Thread: Alcohol vs Gas...MY set up..Help Please !

  1. #1
    Administrator RACING JUNKIE bjuice's Avatar
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    Alcohol vs Gas...MY set up..Help Please !

    Hello everyone i am trying to make a $1,000 + decision here...i have a pro-treet 67 camaro 3,000 lbs w/driver. 511ci BBC ..Brodix Aluminum heads ( do not have a clue what they flow) but have been worked pretty decent by a reputable head man..722/722 lunati solid roller 110 lobe seperation. 14 to 1 compression, good callies stealth crank,crower rods,je pistons,team g intake...currenlty has a 1050 bo-law built dominator...
    Msd 6al with probillet Distributer ( locked out)..1.80 straight cut glide, custom built 5,000 converter, 32x14 (102 roll out) (14 inch tread pattern on 14 inch wheel) I.JUST CHANGED TO 15 inch wheel with a 17x33 tire (102 roll out same as 14x32) (has a 16.8 tread pattern)..so this is gonna give me almost 3 inches of tread pattern per tire..
    i am running a 500 gear......and its turning about 6800rpm thru the lights..

    when i took the car for its 1st pass it ever made after 6 passes i ran a 6.07 et at 115 mph with a best 60 ft of 1.39... (1/8 mile)

    i was not comfortable with the transbreak button on the steering wheel so i was very erratic when leaving on the brake amoung a few other things..i now have it remounted with a NEW 2 step and a msd rpm dial Selector..adjustable from 3000-5200 rpm..

    my launches were really inconsistant ( DRIVER)..getting use to car etc...
    i could not tell yiou where i was leaving ..i would lock it down with the transbreak and apply slight pressure to the petal being the motor up but not too much..i might as well been fottbraking the car

    i DO NOT have a clue how much HP my 511ci is making..from my experience i would assume between 800/850 on gas...the fuel system i have is a MAGNAFUEL PROSTAR 500..alcohol and gas compatible..#12 line from tank to the pump and a #10 to carb...

    i know i gave a lot of info here but i would like a good guesstimate on several things..

    #1- what do you think the car will pick up with the transbreak being used properly with popper box.( suggestion on leaving and shifting rpm's appreciated)..also going to a wider wheel/ tire gaining 3 inches of tread pattern per side

    #2- what do you think Alcohol would do for me over the 112 supreme i am running...and who should i turn to for this carb help., purchasing and tunning advise.


    Thanks in advance for any advise,idea's and opinions


    Brian
    Bjuice..

    "I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY ! "

  2. #2
    Senior Member DYNO OPERATOR
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    Brian, buddy, great combo!! why dont you work with this combo a little while before getting to drastic and $$$$$ . Ive heard enough about pro-systems carbs that Im having 1 done for the vette! what ever you do talk to carb guys and get a consenses on what they think !!! magority rules!!! Also keep practicing with your setup, you know it takes time. dont jump around. your very smart at this ,I know it'll go into the 5's. David.

  3. #3
    Administrator RACING JUNKIE bjuice's Avatar
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    thanks Bud..i love hearing feedback from other people keep it coming !...
    Brian
    Bjuice..

    "I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY ! "

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    Senior Member RACING JUNKIE
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    Brain, I bet your car would be in the 5's easy if you were to use a rev limiter at launch along with the transbrake. Most guys I know of that run in pro box class, leave at around 4500, and usually shift around the 7000 mark. (bbc's) If you have any weak links in your drive line thats a sure fire way to find them. I personally dont care to run in that class so I almost always footbrake.
    Leaving without a rev limiter or transbrake (footbraking) most say they slow down at least a tenth or more.
    Switching to alcohol usually picks up slower cars more than faster one's.
    One of my friends at the track swicthed his 540 over to a alcohol and he only picked one number and it cost him roughly a grand to make the switch so it wasnt a cheap tenth. However not everybodies car reacts the same to changes, another friend switched his 468 from a 1050 gas setup to a rons toilet alcohol injection set up and his picked up three numbers.

    When you described your motor combo I was shocked, thought you talking about mine. I am building the same motor but with iron merlin vr 345cc heads. My 69 camaro is little lighter but I will using a much smaller 33x10.5W tire, with 568 rear gears and a 1.76 powerglide. I hope my numbers will be close to yours but it will be atleast next spring till I find out.
    Goodluck, Charles
    ***IN GOD WE TRUST***

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    Senior Member RACING JUNKIE
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    The switch from a properly setup gas to a properly set up alky carb should be atleast a tenth, if not something isnt correct.
    I think you have 5.9's with the transbrake for sure. I'd get comfortable where its at now on gas then think about making the switch, sounds like a good combo.
    David Lanning
    IHRA NHRA 387B

    Fleenor Racing Transmission
    419-280-1406
    Lanning Electric
    Complete Drag Car Wiring
    APD Race Engines
    www.apdracing.com

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    Brian I have messed with this one for two nights and you already know that I don't know anything but enjoy messing with the numbers. So I am just giving my best guess. But I came up with 5.93 @117. You have helped me lots of times with your ideas. I would love to know how close we are on our guesses so when you make a pass maybe you can post it on this thread so we can see how it ran.
    Wesley
    60' 1.30
    5.58 @ 127.89

  7. #7
    Administrator RACING JUNKIE bjuice's Avatar
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    i hope you are correct..not this weekend but next weekend she is going to the track.....i will give my full ET..As a matter of fact i will try to scan a copy of the slip and post when i go..

    ---i will take a 5.93....yeeeeeeeeahhhhhhh..

    i hope my chassis adjustment will help some (alot) put some rake in the chasiss, put 4 clicks into the front shocks,,went up 1 shock hole on the rear shocks..putting the car back on scales with driver to re-set wheel weights..

    i also had a set of WORN OUT 14x32 tires with 14 inch wheels last time out..they had 14 inch tread patter ( foot print)..

    went back with 15 inch wide wheels and a 17x33 tire (same roll out height" as the 14x32 so my gear deal will not change) ..and this gives me close to a 17 inch tread pattern (foot print)..this gives me 3 inches more rubber per tire contacting the track surface..

    will also have tranny brake with 2 step hooked up and leaving on popper box...instead of trying to do it by ear and a glance

    so i got a lot of varibles in there that cannot be figured on a formula...
    if i can get my 60ft,,,down around the 1.30 to 1.33 mark....i will run the numbers..the quicker the 60 ft the quicker the 1/8 mile et...this 1/8 mile stuff happens fast...if you CANNOT 60FT the car in the 1/8 mile your 1/8 mile et will not be where you want it.....its a little more foregiving in the 1/4...ya got a lot more realestate for a motor to pull up the difference from a slower 60 fter....

    thanks again Wes...you my Bud !!!!!

    Brian
    Bjuice..

    "I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY ! "

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    Senior Member RACING JUNKIE
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    I got a couple questions, is this a 4 link car or ladder bar car? I don't think you'll see more than .015 with alcohol vs gas. The biggest advantage is the car runs much cooler and alcohol is 1/4 the price of gas. The other thing you didn't say what compression you're running, you might need to go up to VP-16 if you're running 14 to 1. Excellent move to move the transbrake off the steering wheel. I mount mine on the back of the qtr. stick alum cover, that way there's no way you can accidently hit it while you are in low gear. I know a lady who fractured 2 vertibrae comming out of the burnout box the first time she drove a dragster with the buttom mounted on the butterfly wheel, accidently hitting it. I'm still wondering why it takes so much tire to make the car hook. the smallest tire you can run and still hook will run the fastest. I run a 5500 stall and have the 2 step set at 4800 launch shifting at 6800 and limiting at 7400, but i'm running 5.43 gears and 14X32's. Most of the big block guys i know run 5.29 gears and 14X32's, but turn the motor up to about 7200. I think 1.35 short time would be a good # for you car. i know a guy who runs a 68 Camero about like your's that runs 5.80's but he has more inches.

    just my .02

    Zip.

  9. #9
    Administrator RACING JUNKIE bjuice's Avatar
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    the Biggest thing about the bigger tire on my 67 was the look of the car..i have HUGE STREEEEEEECTH QTR'S AND large wheel TUBS..put it this way i can take the 17x33's off just like a spare tire..NO PROBLEMS.....THE 14X32'S looked like a true 10in tire under the car ..its now got a more of a beefy look to it...another good thing that i managed was to actually have a 1 inch shorter roll out on this bigger tire than the 14x32 ...the roll out on the 17x33 is 101 and the 14x32's was 102.......most of the people i know today that run a smaller tire still go with the widest rim they can get to get that foot print as wide as possible..

    i agree with you that a smaller tire is faster but its also much more difficult to hook them up..and in my case being a heavier car just ups the anti with trying to make it work with less tire.....IF I HAD MY DRUTHERS..I WOULD DRUTHER be able to buy a 17x33 tire and keep the 17 inch foot print and have it in a RAIDAL tire... that would be my next investment if it where available


    i was a VP dealer and still have an un-opened drum of C-16 that i will run in my vette..which is 16 to 1...

    i did run about 10 gallons of c-16 thru my 67 camaro from another drum and noticed no difference...but i had a very fat carb at the time..so its really un-fair for me to say it wasn't a better choice once i sit back and think as i type this.

    i have heard from many people on this Alcochol vs Gas subject...including you i can count about 10 people that know their stuff that has given me input..my latest one today was Bobby McAlister Head man from clements racing..Curtis Boggs knows him....Anyhow Bobby said i could expect about 60 to 70 more ft lbs of TQ and expect nothing on HP..this tells me it would be better suited fuel for the 1/8 over 1/4...cause we are needing all the TQ for the 60ft time we can get
    ....Bobby did the work on these heads last year and he did mention that i could take them off this winter and angle mill them bringing the compression up to 16 to1 and i would get a Big pat on the back from the alcohol.....its a thought and would be cost effective also...

    Anyhow..i 100% believe that re-adjusting my chassis, Transbreak with 2 step popper to help me gage where i am leaving...and the newer wider tread pattern (3 inch) will increase my ET'S more so than the alcohol...

    again i have been 1.39 60 ft..pretty much on a footbrake pass..the 14x32's where worn out and HARD AS DIAMONDS....the car was spinning bad also
    So if i can knock 1/10 off my 60 ft i will be tickled pink...cause we both know this is going to be close to upper 2 to 3 tenths overall reduction on my ET..at least it normally works that way..

    on this alcohol thing....its a about a split decision...1/2 of the people say don't expect much to expect nothing...while the 2nd 1/2 of the people say anywhere from 3/10 ET reductions..down to what my head guy said today about expecting 60/70 ft lbs of TQ...Which to me is pretty darn good gain in TQ....what does 70 ftlbs of TQ CONVERT TO IN 1/10TH'S ????????

    Anyhow..like another friend of mine said on this site...i got all the parts already on the car to run alcohol including an un-opened drum of Sunoco brand menthanol in the shop with top lube...all i need is a alcohol carb to try..

    i am gonna see if someone has one locally i could borrow....gonna do some scouting at the track tommorrow i also placed a call today to George Ruppert but was too late he was closed.

    but 1st i would like to run the car again with the chassis adjustment, T-brake,tire change and see how much its picked up...then i will run some alcohol..if i do it all at once i will not know what helped the most.


    thanks for your input as always ZIP MAN
    Brian
    Bjuice..

    "I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY ! "

  10. #10
    Senior Member RACING JUNKIE
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    I guess my situation is totally different, the panels on my Malibu are un-molested, and i can't put the wheels on with air in them. This winter i plan to install my 434" motor with stacks on alcohol and i fully hope it to run 5.80's @ 3250LBS. Right now it runs 6.52 & 10.59 with the 377" mtr.with 1.41 to 1.45 short time. I may be dreaming, but that's what i'm shooting for. I will go down to 4.56 gears so i can run a qtr. mile with it.

    Zip.


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