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Thread: Double Adjustable Shocks "Waste of $$ or Not"

  1. #1
    Administrator RACING JUNKIE bjuice's Avatar
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    Double Adjustable Shocks "Waste of $$ or Not"

    i have a pretty smart chassis man that has built/dynoed his share of shocks. He steered me clear of the double adjustable shocks..i ask him why?..he advised me that there was NO WAY that the bleed over from the compression and rebound could be seperated in one canister as the double adjustable shock is designed....although the claims are made that it can be done by the manufactures, he advises that unless there is a independant canister there is no way both compression and rebound can be accuratley (seperated) attained from one cylinder....i went to the BIG BOYS (NHRA SOUTHERN NATIONALS) race last week and looked under several of the BIG name cars such as Greg Anderson etc...low and behold i saw double adjustable shocks but with a independant canister with remote wiring (NONE of the Double adjustable stuff being sold as we know it)....i do not know what brand they use cause i could not get close enough..( i assume they have them custom built or something to that degree) but i will list a few brand name manufactures that build these shocks..they are the TRUE double adjustable shocks and they are very HIGH PRICE...
    Now i AM NOT trying to steer anyone away from buying a double adjustable shock..its your money do with it as you will..i just wanted to give you the side of a true double adjustable shock that the manuafactures will not tell you...I personally have single adjustable shocks and will not touch the SO-CALLED double adjusteble shock for the reason i am stating in this thread..its a waste in my opinion. here are a few brand names and a little literature from one of the sites..PLEASE DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH BEFORE YOU GO PAYING FOR A DOUBLE ADJUSTABLE SHOCK..."Get what you pay for" AND BE YOUR OWN JUDGE !!!!!!.......

    ( THE ABOVE IS MY OPINION ONLY. IT IS NOT INTENDED FOR NOTHING MORE THAN A PERSONAL OPINION !!! )

    #1- OHLINS #2 BILLSTEIN #3 PENSKE....

    below is some info from the OHLINS site on the introduction of this shock.


    Introduction
    The TTX damper is the culmination of three decades of Öhlins’ successful participation in world championship events winning more than 100 World Championships. Many years of work together with some of the world’s most successful racing teams together with advanced dynamic analysis methods developed at Öhlins Racing headquarter in Sweden has given Öhlins the unique knowledge needed to design the TTX damper.

    The Ă–hlins TTX damper, originally developed for formula racing, is designed to handle the demanding damping characteristics needed for all types of tracks, from street courses to super speedways

    The TTX damper is fully adjustable with maximised damper response together with qualities you’ve never seen before when it comes to "settings".

    Low and high speed compression and rebound damping are externally adjustable and fully independent. The adjustment range is huge with equal increments of force throughout the adjustment range. Even the shape of the damping curve can easily be changed. All adjusters affect the flow from the main piston, not the piston rod displacement volume.
    Some classes may need the TTX 40 with 3 or even 2 adjusters. For this puropse there is a needle housing that uses the existing parts in the 2-way adjuster and transforms it to be a 1-way adjuster suitable on either compression or rebound or both. Part number for this needle housing is 05953-03. Preload changes is made by adding shims on one or boths sides of the coil spring. Shims that should be used in the 1-way adjuster are: 00610-16, 00615-16,00625-16 and 00630-16.

    The compression damping forces of the TTX damper are not, as in a conventional damper, caused by a pressure drop on the rebound side, but by increased pressure on the compression side. This reduces the risk of cavitation and makes any reservoir valve or high gas pressure unnecessary. So, no balancing of reservoir damping to main piston damping is needed to avoid cavitation and improve damping response. Maximum response and minimum risk of cavitation will always occur. With no reservoir valve, the internal pressure of the damper unit will be kept to a minimum. The low amount of hysteresis results in excellent short stroke/high force performance. Also, a very low gas pressure can be used without any loss of damping performance.

    Along with the damper comes a unique Valving Reference Program (available for download free of charge at http://www.ohlins.com/Automotive/Pro...rmulaSportscar). This computer model of the damper will allow you to find damping curves without a dynamometer. It will reduce building time tremendously and allow exact damper adjustments in pit lane. The TTX product will revolutionise the work for mechanics and engineers in the racing business.

    This manual text is based on TTX dampers starting with Ă–hlins part number TTX NE0. These are through rod type dampers loaded with several new concepts. As always, all dampers are tested before they are delivered to the customer. In keeping with Ă–hlins long tradition of perfection, quality is outstanding and long life is to be expected.

    Welcome to the World of Ă–hlins.

    Design Criteria
    After the Ă–hlins TT44 was introduced to the market in 1996, it very quickly became one of the most popular dampers in formula racing. For some period, more than 95% of the cars in The Champ Car World Series were using TT44 dampers.

    There are several reasons why the TT44 became so popular. One reason is that it came with some new features not available on other dampers. One of them is the powerful low speed adjusters, totally independent and with the compression adjuster restricting the oil flow from the main piston, not only from the piston rod displacement. Another is the compression high speed adjuster, giving new possibilities to reshape the compression curve.

    When designing the new TTX, the goal was to come up with a damper which would be just as big a step forward as the TT44 had been. Highest priority should be not only to design a damper with excellent performance, but also a damper easier to work on and use than any other product available.

    During the development several patent applications were made.

    Six of the most important design criteria for the TTX are listed below.
    1. No reservoir valve
    The damper design should be with no reservoir valve. In dampers where reservoir valves have to be used to avoid cavitation, one more parameter has to be optimised – the right amount of reservoir damping.

    The hysteresis will be minimised, as no reservoir valve has to be used. All damping comes from the pressure drop over the main piston. Damping forces from a reservoir valve always causes more delay in the damping force build up. See chapter Hysteresis for more information.

    Using reservoir valves always increases the internal pressure. The friction from the piston rod seal/seals can be kept low because of the low internal pressures.
    2. Main piston flow
    Another criterion was to have all the adjusters regulate the flow from the main piston. This will give the maximum pressure area and because of this, the maximum oil volume to regulate.

    The larger the pressure area is, the lower the internal pressure will be for a given damping force. The lower the internal pressure, the less flex there will be. The flex is caused by expansion/compression of the damper body and compression/expansion of the oil. The result is excellent short stroke/high force performance.

    With a large volume of oil passing through the valves , it becomes easier to control the restriction of the oil. In other words, the matching of dampers will be improved.
    3. Full adjustability
    On the TT44/TT40, it was never possible to use a high speed rebound adjuster in combination with a high speed compression adjuster. On the TTX, we wanted to be able to combine those two while keeping them completely independent from each other, as with the low speed compression and rebound adjusters.
    Poppet valves preloaded by coil springs were picked to become the high speed valves, as they can be made very compact in size and precise in opening pressure. This type of valve very often gives an abrupt opening characteristic, resulting in a sharp "knee" in the damping curve. To make the "knee" more rounded and to be able to change its shape, some shims are added to the face of the poppet valves. By changing these shims, the shape of the "knee" can be affected.
    4. Simple valve changing
    Even if the adjustment range of the external adjusters is huge, sometimes there might still be a need to change the valving of the dampers. In other words, change one or several of the following parts: poppet valve/valve seat, coil springs and nose shims. As this very often is done at the track and has to be done quickly, this job has to be simplified as much as possible. Compared to reshimming a conventional damper, any of the changes in the TTX will be a lot quicker. The result exceeded our demands.

    Also it should be possible to fill the damper without a vacuum-filling machine, as this otherwise would be a limiting factor.
    5. Through rod damper
    A through rod damper has some technical benefits. One is packaging, which is a main issue on formula cars. The reservoir volume can be very small, as there is no piston rod displacement. Here no external reservoir is needed. Also there is no gas force pushing the piston rod out of the damper body. (The word "nose pressure" is sometimes used for this force.) Here the nose pressure is zero. This has several advantages. The nose pressure doesn’t vary due to temperature changes and you don’t have to fight the gas force when installing the damper on the car or in the dynamometer.

    Designing a through rod damper gives the possibility to separate the rod bushings and keeps the distance between them constant. If coilover springs are used, the amount of friction will be tremendously reduced.

    As the piston area for compression and rebound are identical, the damping forces will be the same if the same valving is used and the adjusters are set the same. To some degree, this simplifies the use of the damper.

    For all the above reasons, race teams have been interested in through rod dampers. Also, when introducing the TTX, we wanted it to be something very different from the other products out on the market.
    6. External clocking
    Another strong side of the TT44/TT40 was the possibility to clock the reservoir bracket at any angle. This function we wanted to keep on the TTX damper, to ensure an optimum installation on any car. Just as on the TT44/TT40, the clocking of the adjusters on the TTX in relation to the top eye should be possible to change without opening the damper.
    Bjuice..

    "I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY ! "

  2. #2
    Senior Member MASTER BUILDER
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    dam brian my eyes are watering for reading lol. i'm not a chassie guy but i counldn't get my cal-tracs to work without them. the car would load and then unload with singles. as so as i installed doubles and adjusted the rebound it stoped unloading. i had this same talk with keith from skinnykid racecars and he uses doubles on everything he builds. after reading your post i'm wondering even more about the topic thanks alot brian make me more confused lol.

  3. #3
    Administrator RACING JUNKIE bjuice's Avatar
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    mission accomplished LMAO.....this is a modern day (FORUM\ PHILLY BUSTER)...LOL...

    serioulsy..i can copy and post all day long the information on TRUE double adjustable shocks and the reason why they work.


    i know there is going to be someone on here that will strongly disagree that these shocks work (off shelf double adjustable)...and thats COOL !!..i was one of those people at one time..but what i ask from the person that challanages this question is to give either your opinion or copy and post ( as i did lol) the facts why a double adjustable shock will truly work (without bleed over) utilizing the same canister/piston etc....



    if you stop and think using just common sense...

    compression and rebound using the same cannister....COULD IT NOT BE POSSIBLE THAT THEIR COULD BE SOME BLEED OVER PROBLEMS HERE ?...if someone can prove this theory beyond a reasonable doubt i would like to hear it....If this could not be the case then why do they make double adjustable shocks with external cannisters outside of the crazy price tag...


    this should get a good rise here...LOL..

    I know its a lot of reading notice the bold print....its s lot of glooobly- goo but in a nut shell they have the rebound and compression canisters seperate

    Brian
    Bjuice..

    "I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY ! "

  4. #4
    Senior Member DYNO OPERATOR
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    I believe off the shelve doubles are for the masses! If you can afford the others, great ! I beleive this to be the way it is. I also believe they work to some degree!!! but not like the others, I have stranges on my vette, and konis on the camaro! good post bjuice! I would also like to talk to you bj some time about the vettes!!!!! david, ( and by the way whats with the sub names next to your name, when you post? ) like expert builder, etc....?

  5. #5
    Senior Member EXPERT BUILDER
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    Interesting post....
    I can see your point here Brian. I know some guys have picked up a little et by going to a double, but I think that is more because of changing from a worn out or cheap shock, to a better quality.
    I have always felt that the more adjustment you can have in a car is better, as long as you are going to take the time to adjust, which a lot of guys dont, so then double adjustables would be a waste of money.
    Another point of interest, a large number of pro mods are built using Santuff coil overs, at a substansially higher price than konis. They say they are a few hundreds quicker than the konis. They also are a double adjustable. But I have wondered how a small company like Santuff can make a better shock than koni
    Ed

  6. #6
    Junior Member JOURNEYMAN
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    Greg was using Lamb but not for sure now. I can ask Nate next time I see him and let you know.

  7. #7
    Administrator RACING JUNKIE bjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racefab57
    I believe off the shelve doubles are for the masses! If you can afford the others, great ! I beleive this to be the way it is. I also believe they work to some degree!!! but not like the others, I have stranges on my vette, and konis on the camaro! good post bjuice! I would also like to talk to you bj some time about the vettes!!!!! david, ( and by the way whats with the sub names next to your name, when you post? ) like expert builder, etc....?

    sounds good...i am working on the vette as we speak..i spend much time in the shop...my cell phone doesn't pickup down there Metal building. ....the sub name is soemthing that RJ ADMIN has thrown in there for fun...i guess you have seen this by now...pretty funny stuff isn't it !!!!..


    brian
    Bjuice..

    "I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY ! "

  8. #8
    Senior Member DYNO OPERATOR
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    I have wondered how a small company like Santuff can make a better shock than koni
    Ed,
    It is called caring with attention to quality control. In my opinion over the past two years Koni is at the bottom as far as quality control goes. I have seen a couple of new very high dollar shock setups from them that were junk right out of the box. Or almnost out of the box. Matched paiers of electric shocks with completely different charastics as delivered. Guys don't know this and install them and their cars get really screwey until they find what the problem is. I know of only two guys I personally know though that experienced this. There agtain not too many peoiple are spending several thousand dollars on shocks either. In both of those the shocks were sent to Roger Lamb and he made them work perfect. I have also seen a few of the Koni that taking them form the box and adjusting the loose just by a hand feel do feel different. So I prefer either the Strange or the Afco in Double Adjustables if Santhuffs are out of the budget.

    To answer the original question in my opinion;
    If you can afford them and will use the additional tuning capabilities a good set of Double Adjustables is probably the best money you will spend in suspension parts. Like Esd said though, if you are just going to leave them set in one place and not use the tuning capabilities you have with them, save your money.

    Double adjustable front shocks and front struts are also very helpful if you can afford them and will use the tuning they give. I have a customer now that has the Strange Aluminum Struts but with no adjustments. He could sure benefit from the adjustable ones if he had had them.

    I personally like a raer shock to ride soft and the front shock to also ride soft if possible. Problem with front shocks is that you need them stiff to a point in cokmpression for when coming down off wheelies and you can also use a rebound or extension adjustment to help tame the front down when you have already tyed the front travel down as far as you can and still have some down track suspension.

    WEith the rear double adjustable, once you get the bars in somewhat of a baseline, in most instances from track to track or changing track conditions, a rear shock adjustment just may be all you need to make it work.

    have a pretty smart chassis man that has built/dynoed his share of shocks. He steered me clear of the double adjustable shocks..i ask him why?..he advised me that there was NO WAY that the bleed over from the compression and rebound could be seperated in one canister as the double adjustable shock is designed....although the claims are made that it can be done by the manufactures, he advises that unless there is a independant canister there is no way both compression and rebound can be accuratley (seperated) attained from one cylinder....i went to the BIG BOYS (NHRA SOUTHERN NATIONALS) race last week and looked under several of the BIG name cars such as Greg Anderson etc...low and behold i saw double adjustable shocks but with a independant canister with remote wiring (NONE of the Double adjustable stuff being sold as we know it)....i do not know what brand they use cause i could not get close enough..( i assume they have them custom built or something to that degree) but i will list a few brand name manufactures that build these shocks..they are the TRUE double adjustable shocks and they are very HIGH PRICE...
    Now i AM NOT trying to steer anyone away from buying a double adjustable shock..its your money do with it as you will..i just wanted to give you the side of a true double adjustable shock that the manuafactures will not tell you...I personally have single adjustable shocks and will not touch the SO-CALLED double adjusteble shock for the reason i am stating in this thread..its a waste in my opinion. here are a few brand names and a little literature from one of the sites..PLEASE DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH BEFORE YOU GO PAYING FOR A DOUBLE ADJUSTABLE SHOCK..."Get what you pay for" AND BE YOUR OWN JUDGE !!!!!!.......

    ( THE ABOVE IS MY OPINION ONLY. IT IS NOT INTENDED FOR NOTHING MORE THAN A PERSONAL OPINION !!! )

    #1- OHLINS #2 BILLSTEIN #3 PENSKE....
    I would say that your pretty smart chassis man is maybe a little too smart. There is no way possible to begin to compare the needs and the requirements of shocks for drag racing to those of FR1, Can Am or etc. To begin with most of those shocks are computer controlled and cost over $50,000.00 each. Greg Anderson and Jason Line's cars had them for a very short time this season until NHRA said a BIG NO.

    The Penske Hydraulic Shock is infinetly Double Adjustable and doesa require a separate resorvoir. That shock is as far as I know still NHRA legal and is used on some of the Pro teams. The Koni Electric and the Strange Electric is legal is is used on many of the Pro Teams after they have been gone througgh by Lamb. Roger Lamb also builds his own shocks and they arew sweet and are pricey.

    Bear in mind that all 4 shocks used in NHRA Pro racing to have sensors sending load and travel information to Data Logs so they can see what is talking place.

    Your chassis expert is far smater than anyone I know in High Horsepopwer racing. The shocks we refer to now as off the shelf double adjustables a few years back were the best you could get for drag racing and were heavily used by everyone at the top. The very top guys took thaose same shocks from Koni, Strange and even Monroe(Made drag shocks at one time) and would send them to Roger Lamb with all car specs and Roger would calibrate them for the car's needs. Lamb Industries does have a shock absorber dyno to test the clibrations and dampening forces.

    I vehemently disagree with anyone who thinks that using simple single adjustable shocks in high horsepowered cars is the best idea. You will not finbd any on anything that is quick and has excessive power. I do work with customers having 1,000 to 3,000 hp. I consider a good doubgle adjustable to be a requirement when cars get this powerful and with the chassis setups we have to do to keep them hooked and not unloading the tires.

    With lower powered cars, single adjustable is ok.

    Never equate suspension needs or even engines used for serious drag racing with FR1 stuff.

    Bilstien Shocks arew unique in that they do not use a pressurised chamber that holds a pressure against the piston with a force toward extension like most gas chagred shocks do. The Bilstien is a gas cushion shock and has unique valving that comes into play when the dampening needs require it. In my opinion the Bilstien is the best for all around driving needs. Not for Drag Racing.

    I shudder to even think about a 1,500 hp to 3,000 hp car going down the track with only a single adjutment capability which cay only be adjusted for eithe launch or ride but not both. I would bet that most Pro drivers would refuse to drive it.

    Also tell your chassis expert to do some research into performace shocks. None will have only one chamber or cavity inside them. Just becuase it looks like a round tube don't be fooled. Inside is multiple cavities, chambers and valves.

    Ed
    " Let all things that hath breath, praise the Lord. Praise Ye the Lord" Psalms 150 vs 6.

  9. #9
    Administrator RACING JUNKIE
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    Nice thread here guys,lots of knowlege and advise to be had here in this thread.

    I myself personally like the double adjustable shocks,I have a couple different kinds,but I got Afco's on my car at the moment.

    I do have a set of penski's to with the co2 canister attached to the shocks,that are also double adjustable,and fresh from the dyno. :P
    There Is 1 Thing Better Than Cubic Inches,,,More Of Them

  10. #10
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    shocks

    " Penski is bad to the bone" I had one on a Davis Swingarm Dragster and i could adjust it to any size motor with nothing more than a toothpick.

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