just reading the conversation between bugzy and vargo. I havent seen all the messages between them,and never heard the phone conversations when the deal was made. I have nothing in this matter. but I do know the truth to some extent. I happen to live next door to his parents,he lives about 30 miles away. the wheels were delivered here. I also know for an absolute fact that he never mounted a tire on them nor did he ever attempt to mount them on his car. he removed them from the box they were delivered in and saw they did not match the rear wheels on his car, and he laid them on a shelf and that is where they stayed until he sold them. I took one of them and tried it on my nova, but it didnt match well with the greg weld wheels I had on the back, so I put it back with the other one and he sold them. he knew nothing at all about those wheels except what he was told when bought them. they did need a good cleaning, but that was all I could see wrong with them. everyone has a different opinion of what excellent is.