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hotrod1994 07-14-2013 06:36 PM

nitrious
 
so im putting a sbc together and wanna know if it would handle a 50 shot 75 shot 100 shot?
rods say they are "good" to 550 im should make close to 500 on motor
they are 5140 forged rods do you think they will handle 7000rpm with a little spary?
pistons are speed pro coated hyper pistons 11:1

Swiley383 07-14-2013 06:49 PM

I would much rather have 4340 H beam rods and forged pistons at that RPM you may be pushing the limits. That said I know of lots of people running sbc motor to around 6500 with stock rods. I built mine for longevity with H beams and forged pistons and I don't run nitrous. Without forged pistons do not let it go lean and be carful with the timing.

mytmouz 07-14-2013 07:00 PM

No spray on the hypers, first time you detonate, one will break...

hotrod1994 07-15-2013 12:27 AM

im not so worried about the pistons they were 200 bucks a set not a bad price as long one doesn't explode and damage the cylinder or the head. im more worried about the rods. do i need spray no but an extra 100 hp isnt a bad thing in my opinion

bjuice 07-15-2013 07:29 AM

No hypers with gas !!!..Forged #1 rule when running gas..among 196 other things..

I have to ask..if thats how you felt about running Hypers with gas why ask ?

Just wondering ?

For the record you DO NOT have to detonate to damage a hyper running NOS. The piston matrial CANNOT handle the wear and tear of gas..no matter if small shot.

Also do you realize when you break rotating parts it destroys other parts..A broke piston can wipe out your heads,crank;rods, block other small parts as well..I have seen oil pump and distributer gear wiped out as well. ...could you replace all this plus labor for $200 ?...Why not spend $150-$200 more now and get right parts for application and save thousands ?????? I never have understood this mind set. ...

I take time to answer post like this cause I am the admin on this site over last 10 years. I feel RJ members deserve it..If I were on any other site I would not have responded.

Their are some smart people on this site when it comes to answering questions. You were given good advise by Mytmouz...

roadkill2 07-15-2013 08:00 AM

I'll probably get my tit in a wringer on this, but, Juice is like robbing banks, you're going for the big result but the inevitible consequences aren't usually pleasant.

If you want an instant 100-200 Hp on demand, you will pay for it, either before, by building a bullet proof Bullet or by picking up your puzzle at half track.

I suppose Nitrous has it's place, and there's guys who use it with few negative consequences, but if you're tuned right, running 'em lean and then making 'em leaner on top is a sure fire path to an uncontrolled BANG!

Just sayin'

bjuice 07-15-2013 09:14 AM

I run a total of 600 Shot..tuned to perfection..best of best parts and still got to change Rods,Pistons,Rings valve Job and springs 70/80 passes under full power no more than 100..and you better be checking lash,leakdown constant fuel pressure before every pass. I could go on and on..Its a $4500 preventive maintenance but when your running All Aluminum Big Chief 632ci plus ...its peanuts to what a small broken rotating piece could cost....Sorry but when I hear someone sweating a few hundred in this racing game I shake my head..Its NOT a poor mans sport and unfortunatley I have seen too many guys try this RACE game but should have taken care of business at home. ..I am getting off subject a little but NOT really.

To un-popular belief more engines are hurt at the track running Gas for being too rich than lean..but lean does it as well.j

curtisreed 07-15-2013 11:49 AM

Here are some ramblings from me on the OP's question.

The first thing I think when I read the first post is this. Put aside the NOS question and look at your statement. You are building a motor that should make 500hp, your rods are rated to 550hp and you want someone to tell you that it will be ok to shoot 50-100 more on it? Plus you didn't even say what specific rods they are.

Hypereutectic pistons really don't like detonation. The guys told you that and you didn't like the answer. Those pistons are pretty good in their intended environment. The problem is that if your tune is off some or you get a little oil passed your rings you have traveled outside of the envelope of safe operating parameters for hypereutectic pistons.

500hp with a small dome and 5140 rods is a good decent running small block. If you want to make 600hp build the motor to do that. Don't try and do it with a 500 max hp build and be disappointed.

This is just my humble opinion so take it for what it cost.

Curtis

TheYellaBrick 07-15-2013 12:07 PM

Did I read that he wanted to build a one pass grenade ? No ? Sounds like that's what he wants cuz that's EXACTLY what he will get if he continues upon this path. 500-550 hp is a lot of power that will last a while if built properly.
HotRod, speed costs money, how fast you wanna go, for MANY times or just a handful, if that ?

hotrod1994 07-15-2013 01:07 PM

so no spray i got that part thanks it was just an idea id have to run a high gear instead of my 4.88 and pick up a nitrous converter anyway. i never siad i didn't like the answer!! i take all the info i get from you guys and put it to good use

yeah racing is the rich mans game but im out to prove the broke guys that build cars put of their single car garage can hang with the guys with tens of thousands of dollars. my dad and uncles did it and im gonna do the same regardless of who tells me different

bjuice 07-15-2013 01:58 PM


Originally Posted by hotrod1994
so no spray i got that part thanks it was just an idea id have to run a high gear instead of my 4.88 and pick up a nitrous converter anyway. i never siad i didn't like the answer!! i take all the info i get from you guys and put it to good use

yeah racing is the rich mans game but im out to prove the broke guys that build cars put of their single car garage can hang with the guys with tens of thousands of dollars. my dad and uncles did it and im gonna do the same regardless of who tells me different

What type racing you plan on doing ? What kind of racing did your folks do and how long ago ? Hey man I wish ya the BEST for real...let us know how it turns out.

TheYellaBrick 07-15-2013 03:25 PM

I'm one of those 'little guys' also. If you want to play with the big dogs and beat them then you better research EVERY aspect of your racing program. It has to be a downright SCIENCE project that consumes you 1000 %. Cuz that is what THEY are doing AND have money to buy the BEST in parts and machine work.
Do you want to beat 'em just once or on a continuous basis ? Once, it'll take a bucket of money, repeatedly it will take dump trucks full of dough. Then you become 'one of them' !
You might want to start with a smaller goal, attain that, set a newer higher goal, attain that, and so on. EVERY goal that you attain, the information and experiences gained along the way will become priceless and absolutely necessary to make it to the top. You eat an elephant one bite at a time.
You will lose a LOT and win, MAYBE a few. Keeping the fire alive is your ULTIMATE challenge.
We're all here to advise in any way we have expertise or experiences with. Good Luck, Cowboy !

TheRabbit 07-15-2013 04:47 PM


Originally Posted by bjuice
To un-popular belief more engines are hurt at the track running Gas for being too rich than lean..but lean does it as well.j

BJ I had to quote this for because it needs to be said a 1,000 times. You know I learned the expensive way!!
Being lean mostly will cost you some hp, being rich cost you some pistons, sleeve(s) in block, broken valves from piston parts, messed up crank and the list goes on and on!! lol

BTW I agree with you guys on this motor. It's pretty much doing all it needs to handle. Save up some $ and build a motor that can take a decent shot, 200 - 250hp and you'll love it!!

Swiley383 07-15-2013 05:15 PM

That good information I have never heard that about being too rich causing so much damage on the spray.

TheRabbit 07-15-2013 05:24 PM

This is what rich will do for you. It cost me; a sleeve, set of pistons and rings, (those rings were over $700 btw. I want ever use that expensive of ring again) had to turn the crank .10 / .10, a bent valve from the piece of piston that got on top of the piston, a valve guide and a set of Clark copper head gaskets.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...48/Number4.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...r4cylinder.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...Spareparts.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t.../Tornapart.jpg

Swiley383 07-15-2013 05:32 PM

That's ugly I defiantly learned somthing in case I ever do decide to run nitrous on my motor. I had no clue that would be the result of running too rich.

wazup 07-15-2013 06:10 PM

Its like Bj said you have to stay on top of it every pass.

Running a engine with those piston and putting nitrous to them is like lighting a bomb.

hotrod1994 07-15-2013 06:43 PM

my pops had a 70 nova that was street car back in the 70's that ran 10:50's uncle had a 67 chevelle that went 10:70's both with bbc and on a budget all three of my uncles that were into cars had sub 10 second cars and its just a matter of time before i do the same

shes gonna be a street car thats gonna go to the track every month or so for the real street drags the local track has local track being 2 hours away.... as well as a little down the old back roads out here

yellabrick this does consume me 1000% every dime i have goes into this my buddies always ask where all my money goes and my answer is always car parts im always trying to think of different ways to make more power or make this or that more efficient and work better

well i got the crank at the shop now being turned .010 after i get it back i just gotta put it together

il let you guys know how it turns out
thanks guys,Logan

bjuice 07-15-2013 08:49 PM

Great Logan I think your goals of running mid 10s and streetable is very attainable goal for you. Without going into great detail let me give you a few hints to get you in Mid to low 10 sec range....if you got a true 550 hp engine GREAT !! Work on reducing the weight on your car..the reason a light car is fast (et ) is because you can get it moving quicker..once the car is in full forward motion ( going down highway ) weight is not releavent.its fun to put it on a diet but still let it look heavy to the eye...and LIE your A$$ off and say its 3500lbs no matter what it weighs.. :D 8)

hotrod1994 07-16-2013 02:38 AM

she is definatley going on a diet. i wish i could get some weight off the doors these doors on these 2nd gen camaro doors are HEAVY!!

curtisreed 07-16-2013 04:06 AM


Originally Posted by hotrod1994
so no spray i got that part thanks it was just an idea id have to run a high gear instead of my 4.88 and pick up a nitrous converter anyway. i never siad i didn't like the answer!! i take all the info i get from you guys and put it to good use

yeah racing is the rich mans game but im out to prove the broke guys that build cars put of their single car garage can hang with the guys with tens of thousands of dollars. my dad and uncles did it and im gonna do the same regardless of who tells me different

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound like an ass. :oops: :oops: After I read what I wrote it could have come out much better. I myself don't believe racing is a rich man's game, it just depends on how fast you want to go. The more you can do yourself the faster you can go on the same dollar. Heck, I am on the lowest rung of the racing ladder being just a bracket racer in an ugly old roadster. I mostly just don't want the few new racers we get lately to make mistakes that cost them everything and have to quit racing. Good luck with your build, we need all the new blood we can get.

Here is my old junk.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps1909eadd.jpg

bjuice 07-16-2013 09:19 AM

I started out 30 years ago street racing..then was introduced to round track, Kart open wheel...you had two type racers those who showed up and rode in the rear and those who showed to win. NOTHING wrong with either.

It depends on the type racing you choose...you can go local bracket racing with a 4 banger 1992 toy celica..some do the same type racing with 4 second 100k rails

My last race over Saturday/Sunday cost me $1300. ( tires included) u gotta have new tires after a weekend race in these 10.5 cars..

chevynovaman 07-16-2013 10:10 AM

[quote="hotrod1994"]my pops had a 70 nova that was street car back in the 70's that ran 10:50's uncle had a 67 chevelle that went 10:70's both with bbc and on a budget all three of my uncles that were into cars had sub 10 second cars and its just a matter of time before i do the same



Wow,
10.50's in the 1970's would put you close or on a world record street car of that era, not alot of aftermarket parts and heads like today. also convertors and slicks have come along way since then and even now days is not the easiest to hit 10.50's in a real street driven car with no trans brake and nos, no race fuel, full exhaust and be reliable.

I would say any engine in good shape will handle 100 shot no problem.
Put a couple gallons of turbo blue in it if your worried about detnation..

hotrod1994 07-16-2013 01:34 PM

its all good curtisreed, im on my way of learning how to do it all now, thanks
you are right!! we need all the blood we can get its hard to find kids my age that are into old school power now there all hopped up on the rice rockets and laptops

well pops was 19/20 and he was born 1955 so late 70's it was a 402 bbc 13.5:1 (ive got one of the spare pistons he had hanging on the wall) rectangular port heads not sure of the cam he ram a tunnel ram with 2 660 center squirters m22 and a 12 bolt with 5:13's out back he never lost on the street 10.55 was his best time at 128 mph at the track he might still have the time slip ill have to ask him

bjuice 07-16-2013 02:46 PM


Originally Posted by hotrod1994
its all good curtisreed, im on my way of learning how to do it all now, thanks
you are right!! we need all the blood we can get its hard to find kids my age that are into old school power now there all hopped up on the rice rockets and laptops

well pops was 19/20 and he was born 1955 so late 70's it was a 402 bbc 13.5:1 (ive got one of the spare pistons he had hanging on the wall) rectangular port heads not sure of the cam he ram a tunnel ram with 2 660 center squirters m22 and a 12 bolt with 5:13's out back he never lost on the street 10.55 was his best time at 128 mph at the track he might still have the time slip ill have to ask him

That's a BAD machine in the 70's for sure...I like it...

Start with removing the crash bars in the doors and front bumper..tubular cross member kit is a must for the year car you have. not only does it save weight but will also allow a full length oil pan and larger primary headers... Now remember when you get to trimming that pig down understand where you need to lose the weight from jump street...start with doors forward. they have a heavy back glass but don't be so quick to yank that out until all other is shaved down .It's where you want the weight if you have it. I owned a 87 that was built by k-town performance as a promo car for Comp cams..it ran 5.0's at 137mph with a 615ci with a ton of spray. With a 406ci SBC 590HP 550TQ it ran best 6.35 @ 111 mph hitting it hard on the brake ( no nitrous ). I wanted to show you the et difference on the two types engines...this is why I have pointed you to be creative in lightening her up.. once you get her slimmed down then work on getting all you can from your power plant. 8)

I would think most here would agree.. just to let you know although I own a 10.5 Outlaw car...My heart is and has always been with the un-cut street cars. The older I get the more I go back...I currently have a real 73 z 28 Camaro with 6 speed..I would say if I can get it to hook decent and get thru 3rd gear it might be a 7.70-7.80 car..its got s 3.08 gear...also have a 69 Camaro x-11car...4 speed its a 7.20 et car..I have posted this # in the 69..

both cars un-molested and they have NOT been placed on any kind of diet..but understand I am not looking to reach any low et's in either car.

hotrod1994 07-16-2013 03:41 PM

nice!! thanks for all the info bjuice!!

chevynovaman 07-16-2013 03:52 PM


Originally Posted by hotrod1994
its all good curtisreed, im on my way of learning how to do it all now, thanks
you are right!! we need all the blood we can get its hard to find kids my age that are into old school power now there all hopped up on the rice rockets and laptops

well pops was 19/20 and he was born 1955 so late 70's it was a 402 bbc 13.5:1 (ive got one of the spare pistons he had hanging on the wall) rectangular port heads not sure of the cam he ram a tunnel ram with 2 660 center squirters m22 and a 12 bolt with 5:13's out back he never lost on the street 10.55 was his best time at 128 mph at the track he might still have the time slip ill have to ask him

sounds like he had a good combo.

bjuice 07-16-2013 05:32 PM


Originally Posted by hotrod1994
nice!! thanks for all the info bjuice!!

Ok I am gonna say this and then shut up. Lol...

If you wanna run 9.80s -9.90s on motor taking out guess work ( [email protected]) in your year camaro here it is.. This may sound like a lot of money up front but in the big picture its not....here it is.

A PAR built standard deck 565ci with 3x oval port heads..makes 1200 hp and 1000 TQ and will live forever with regular minimum maintenance. Scott Duggins takes in these 565's he has built for people trading up to larger Ci...I have seen him turn them back out fresh for $8,500..you just gotta catch it. These 565ci IMO is the best engine lb for lb..

Tubular Cross member with a good 400 turbo tranny and you got you something that will get in the 9's without much of a diet...

I know some can't expense it all up front but it would be a great package to save for.

Tod74 07-16-2013 06:45 PM


Originally Posted by bjuice

To un-popular belief more engines are hurt at the track running Gas for being too rich than lean..but lean does it as well.j

Could you explain that a little further please....by pm is fine if you don't want to get off subject too much.Too Lean I understand what happens.... What happens when it's fat in regards to the nitrous tune? Just trying to learn

Tod74 07-16-2013 06:51 PM


Originally Posted by bjuice

Originally Posted by hotrod1994
nice!! thanks for all the info bjuice!!

Ok I am gonna say this and then shut up. Lol...

If you wanna run 9.80s -9.90s on motor taking out guess work ( [email protected]) in your year camaro here it is.. This may sound like a lot of money up front but in the big picture its not....here it is.

A PAR built standard deck 565ci with 3x oval port heads..makes 1200 hp and 1000 TQ and will live forever with regular minimum maintenance. Scott Duggins takes in these 565's he has built for people trading up to larger Ci...I have seen him turn them back out fresh for $8,500..you just gotta catch it. These 565ci IMO is the best engine lb for lb..
Tubular Cross member with a good 400 turbo tranny and you got you

something that will get in the 9's without much of a diet...


I know some can't expense it all up front but it would be a great package to save for.

Damn $8500!!! That's cheap for that engine. I had between 10-11k in my 540 that I assembled myself from a jegs catalog basically and it didn't make nowhere close to 1200hp. I understand that's a reconditioned one but still beats building your own in your garage.

bjuice 07-16-2013 10:08 PM

I will try to give a good idea without being to drawn out. You will get the idea... Here is my understanding.....when excessive amount of raw fuel enters the cylinder it washes down the coat of oil..the heat build up is so great it cannot dissipate fast enough..the ring lands will lift because of heat..taking out oil rings causing oil to enter cylinder causing detonation...( meltdown )..This happens at a accelerated rate when using Nitrous because of amount fuel used thru the carb and fuel selenoids from the Nitrous.. This is very short version.

TheYellaBrick 07-16-2013 10:11 PM


Originally Posted by Tod74

Originally Posted by bjuice

To un-popular belief more engines are hurt at the track running Gas for being too rich than lean..but lean does it as well.j

Could you explain that a little further please....by pm is fine if you don't want to get off subject too much.Too Lean I understand what happens.... What happens when it's fat in regards to the nitrous tune? Just trying to learn

Sounds like a teachable moment ! Share it with the rest of us, please !

TheRabbit 07-17-2013 08:01 AM


Originally Posted by bjuice
I will try to give a good idea without being to drawn out. You will get the idea... Here is my understanding.....when excessive amount of raw fuel enters the cylinder it washes down the coat of oil..the heat build up is so great it cannot dissipate fast enough..the ring lands will lift because of heat..taking out oil rings causing oil to enter cylinder causing detonation...( meltdown )..This happens at a accelerated rate when using Nitrous because of amount fuel used thru the carb and fuel selenoids from the Nitrous.. This is very short version.

Correct. Basically the motor can't burn all the fuel in the cylinder.
That's why it's so important to read the plugs on a nitrous motor. If it's rich you can either add more nitrous or take away fuel. All is done by changing the jets. Simple fix, but not so simple to figure out. The hard part is every engine is different. I can tell you my tune up and it may work and it may not work or your motor even if they are the same motor.

You can see a pic of the piston I posted and see the ring land is gone. Well it's actually burnt off lol, but if you catch it before that you can see where it is rolling and not holding the rings in place. In my case the fire was from the oil in the cylinder and once the piston burnt through a lot more oil comes up and catches on fire.

One thing about a nitrous motor you have to be careful is when starting the motor. If you have a solenoid that is leaking ANY it will put raw nitrous in the motor and when you start it can explode. (ALWAYS USE A FILTER ON YOUR NITROUS LINES) You should always cut off a valve and bleed the pressure off before you shut the motor down AND have a seperate swith for ignition and start. That's why you see guys turning the motor over a good bit then turning on the ignition on a nitrous motor. Actually a lot of guys use plastic / nylon intake bolts on the intake so they will break loose without destroying everything. I've seen some really UGLY nitrous explosion that destroy the entire top of the motor and hood.

Tod74 07-17-2013 08:17 AM

Thanks.....I figured it had something to do with washing the cylinder down with fuel but didn't know the connection to detonation . This is good info.

hotrod1994 07-17-2013 09:23 AM

thanks for all the help!!!!! this car is gonna be more of street car so i think im gonna leave it alone after this motor and after i cut the weight.....im trying to find a "racecar" to build something light.....im a die hard chevy guy thru and thru but a light fox body mustang with a bic c.i sbc and spray on a 10.5 tire is ideal in my eyes

roadkill2 07-17-2013 10:02 AM

Too Rich is, probably, as dangerous as being too lean. However, it generally takes a lot less time to find out you're too lean, and if you're using juice, you can cause the same results you encounter when you're too lean with Nitro. Instant melting of the non ferrous metals in your cylinders . .

On the Oil thing. No matter where you get the oil in the Combustion Chambers, whether it's from bad or hung rings or leaky valve guides or for that matter, a leaking intake or head gasket, if you know basic physics, you understand that oil burns a lot hotter than the fuels we use, if they're anywhere near the correct mix, and if there's enough, (it doesn't take much) your pistons, too, can look like Rabbit's examples . .

And if you use any kind of forced intake, you'll just double your "pleasure" if you get oil in a cylinder . . It's vicious!

TheRabbit 07-17-2013 02:44 PM

Nitrous
 
Oh yea trying to burn oil is another topic. It doesn't compress very well and makes a mess of a motor in a hurry. lol


Originally Posted by roadkill2
Too Rich is, probably, as dangerous as being too lean.

Actually it's way worse. On nitrous if your lean you loose power. If your fat you burn stuff up and burn it QUICK. What I'm trying to say is it's way easier to hurt it by being rich than being lean. It's really rare somebody hurts a nitrous motor by being lean.
Reading the plugs tell it all. Pretty much when you pull them out they should look like they were never run other than a timing mark on the strap.

Even this plug is rich. I hurt my motor on this tune the next pass after this plug was pulled. I do need to add that this motor was still 15-1 compression. It was dropped to 12.5-1. The lower compression gave me a lot bigger tuning window as the pros call it. I say it gave me more room for my stupidity! lol


http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...-52-44_367.jpg

bjuice 07-17-2013 03:51 PM

I wasn't going to say anymore on it cause it goes against what the contrary belief has been circulated for years ....I knew it ( rich ) was going to raise some eye brows when it got mentioned....lol.....

I am far from classifying myself as a Nitrous expert but I have spent many, many summer days/nights at the track under the hood and laying under race cars with experts who run Nitrous. Tony Christian and Steve Kirk just to name a few...Tony runs a mega dose of this stuff...4 stages ALL IN by .08 out.....Tony set up my combo at a private weekend session in Bradenton Fla....So although I am NOT an expert. I know enough about it to know what I cannot do with it and the consequences if I slip up. I run lean...LEAN IS MEAN...My plugs look like they do out of the box after a full power Nitrous pass... I flow the gas solenoids at 5- 1/2 pounds in cool air. We can fudge down to 5 -1/4 and maintain power in more humid air conditions. :shock: :D

There is so much more we can discuss in relation to Nitrous. I could foresee two more detailed pages worth...I joked around at beginning of this thread and said there are 196 areas to discuss on this topic. Well consider we have covered 5 or 6 areas 190 more to go...lol.

if any of you guys are interested in keeping the discussion open please feel free to ask..no such thing as a dumb question...cause I assure you there is a lot of stuff to go over in many area's..engine,NOS set up,converter,gearing ( which some of you might be surprised), utilizing Gear retards, staging with NOS how and why, what do if car stalls ( and you better know or KABOOM )..Proper bottle pressure and why.....on and on and on.. this can lead down many Rabbit holes ( no pun intended Scott... 8) )

here is a link to my profile. There is a embedded vid from you tube on a shake down hit ( small stage 28/32 jets or 300 shot ). The track was bad and we were experimenting with ramping in 3 degree timing gear retard...

would you believe it if I told you that Nitrous is the BEST chassis tuning tool in racing ?

http://www.racingjunk.com/profile/10107

here is a the you tube link just in case...67 nova stock firewall,steel qtrs , steel roof. 10.5 tires..3,000 lbs... best ET in 1/8th [email protected] mph 1.10 60ft
PAR Big Chief 632ci with two stages .. 600 shot all in by .07 out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP9MzOuTs9I

Swiley383 07-17-2013 05:36 PM

Somthing I have wondered is what why do a motor purge if you have purge valves is it to clear the solinods out or plugs I see all the guys around here spray big hits do it

chevynovaman 07-17-2013 05:56 PM

I motor purge to make sure everything is on and working. I got to the line last weekend at the mud drags and did a motor purge and it wanted to kill the motor, bottle was accidently closed somehow so I ran on motor only..


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