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BigRev1 11-25-2013 07:29 PM

565 in g-body
 
When I put 565 in 1984 Cutlass Salon can I keep the Heater and AC box and if so what headers do you guys recommend. Any help will be very useful, and thanks in advance. [/b]

roadkill2 11-26-2013 07:34 AM

You haven't stated your intent with the car.

Are you gonna race it or drive it to work?

BigRev1 11-26-2013 10:12 AM

It will be street and strip but mostly street. You know the weekend warrior. But need Heat and AC want it to be comfortable for all riders. And it is 93 octane engine. And thanks again all input will help.

roadkill2 11-26-2013 11:30 AM

Kinda depends on whether you're after something that is comfortable and relatively quiet (so you can hear the stereo) and dependable or a "Bad Assed Street Machine" . . That looks and sounds like a "Bad Assed Street Machine" . . .

If you're gonna cruise it mostly and drive some distance with it, I'd recommend a set of cast iron Big Block Manifolds. They're quiet and a lot cooler in the engine compartment. I think there were several Corvette H.O. applications that're still around if you look very hard at swap meets, etc . . .

I have a blown small block in my Street Rod, so I use a set of the old 365 HP 'Vette cast iron manifolds with Jet Hot coating applied. Looks good, is a lot quieter and cooler than Tube headers.

On the other hand you can run a set of tubular "Block Huggers" and they'll give you a little better performance (Dunno exactly how much really) or a set of custom headers with long collectors with flanges, I've had all three on my Street Rod and they all have their advantages and dis advantages.

Probably the worst set of headers I've had on my Hot Rod was a set of High Dollar Stainless Steel tubes with long collectors. They were the prettiest thing I ever put on the Car until I drove it up the road once . . They turned every color you can find in a Paint sample book . . And they were noisy. You could hear every port fire, and when you warmed it or cooled it, they popped and crackled like a Hamburger Grill, and because my ride is in the weeds, every time you made contact with something under the car, you either cracked them, bent them or loosened them at the flanges . . I'm also pretty sure that they roasted at least one high buck Starter! If you could have put a pig on a spit in the engine compartment and driven 300 miles on a 90° day, you'd have a well roasted pig when you got there. They were absolutely the worst at generating heat in the engine compartment.

When I took 'em off, I gave them to a guy I didn't like . .

As for performance, if you have Air and all those other bells and whistles for cruising comfortably, then the parasitic HP loss (or gain) from your exhaust system won't be discernible.

And whatever you end up with, every guy who looks at your ride will give you advice on what you should have done, because whatever you have isn't gonna be right!

BigRev1 11-26-2013 11:57 AM

I want all the hp possible and the heat i was referring to was the heater. I want to keep the heater and AC box intact. So I was wondering what header would be best to do that with and not be up against or to close to the box. So please help if u all can and thanks again in advance.

roadkill2 11-26-2013 12:57 PM

The heat I'm referring to is "Engine Compartment Heat" which creates problems for you if you're cruising yer ride in hot weather . . . And . . You said you wanted A/C so I'm assuming you're not interested in an 11 second street ride . . . Just based on what you're starting with . .

Go to Summit and look at what they have to offer in a tube header. They should have an application that fits . . How good, that's up to you.

And . . If they don't have a GM G Body to BBC headers, I think I'd recommend that you get out your shoehorn and put the engine in the hole and see how much room you have left to play with before you order something that won't fit . .

BigRev1 11-26-2013 01:17 PM

The engine is being built now so I was trying to have the headers that I need when the engine arrive. So I can finish everything up for interior and paint. Because the interior guy said he needs about two months to fiberglass, paint and cover everything in the car. And still have paint and car audio installation to deal with. The goal is to have it done my the first of spring to enjoy the t-tops before it get to hot.

roadkill2 11-26-2013 03:02 PM

Not telling you what you should do, or "Should have done" but before interior, exterior or even getting the new Bullet built, I would have taken a Block with the heads on it and made sure the hole was big enough. And what else fits in the hole with the block . . .

jus' sayin'

My Street Rod is kind of always in a state of Flux, so to speak (Re:Header story) and because those old shitboxes were really, really small inside, I've learned that we should always "Dummy it up" before buying new expensive pieces . . . that may not fit . .

BigRev1 11-26-2013 03:58 PM

The car had 496 in it with lemon headers on it but no heater box. So I know engine will go in the car with headers. But what I don't know is will it go in with a heater box installed and what headers to use. But from the way it looked with the old setup I don't think the lemon headers will work, because they would be to close or touching.

roadkill2 11-26-2013 04:06 PM

Back to square one . . Why did the heater box get removed?

Space or lack of need?

BEAST477 11-26-2013 04:15 PM

You could always build a set to clear the heater/AC box. If you have some fab skills you can do the mock up and tack them together then have someone tig them together for you if needed.

roadkill2 11-26-2013 05:03 PM

That's where I was going next . . In my area there's about three guys who can build a set of headers, although they're not "Lemons" or anything of that grade . .

OR . . . You can put the heater and A/C evaporator someplace else . . . 53 thru 64 Studes had the heater under the right front seat, as did the 55 through 58 Pontiac . . The '46 through about 1963 Rolls Royce Sedans had their A/C Evaporators in the trunk . . All of which involves fabrication, but of a different kind . .

In my own case, because there's not much room for access under the dash of a '34 Ford once you stuff an A/C unit under there, my eletrical panel is under the back seat cushion and the windshield wiper motor is behind the Right Rear Seatback.

When you have to have room for HP, there's other places for all the gingerbread!

BigRev1 11-26-2013 05:09 PM

The box was removed when I brought the car. But I want what I consider to be a real street car with heater, ac and cruise control. Before someone go off about that comment, it's just the way I see it.

I don't know enough about fabricating to be comfortable with doing my on headers. And I would rather have someone else deal with the headache or lack of one. I guess that it will have to sit at muffler shop to get some made. And again thanks guys.

I have already put all the new heater and ac stuff back on the car so I can try to have it ready to play with by the first of spring. Paid to much to take back off. I will just get custom made headers because out the box will not suit my application. I want to personally thank all for the comments.

bixblk 11-29-2013 04:09 PM

565 BBC
 
Is the 565 a tall deck 10.2 or a 9.8 deck, I think they are making those with both size blocks. that might make a difference when fitting things up too. I am assuming the 496 that was removed was a 9.8 deck (standard deck 454 .060 over with a 4.25 stroke)

zipper06 11-29-2013 09:55 PM

Yuu may be able to use the Lamon headers but almost all the Loman headers requirwe that you remove the original motor mounts, even with the sm/blk engine, i have a set o Lamon heades for my 1980 Malibu that also requires the removable of the motor mounts, your's probable does also. I would check the fit before spending the money.

JMO

Zip.

BigRev1 11-30-2013 11:30 PM

Yes it is a short deck, if I was going to use tall desk it would have been a 632 . But I decided on the 565 to get 8 to 10 miles per gallon. Because it will be a trailer queen until it have to do track duty.

The lemon headers that was on the 496 was sold with the engine. Because they were blocking the heater and ac box. I got to have the best of both worlds, if it is physically possible. Because everybody know you can't look good in the hotrod sweating or with a coat on. LOL

roadkill2 12-01-2013 09:44 AM


Originally Posted by BigRev1
Yes it is a short deck, if I was going to use tall desk it would have been a 632 . But I decided on the 565 to get 8 to 10 miles per gallon. Because it will be a trailer queen until it have to do track duty.

The lemon headers that was on the 496 was sold with the engine. Because they were blocking the heater and ac box. I got to have the best of both worlds, if it is physically possible. Because everybody know you can't look good in the hotrod sweating or with a coat on. LOL

If it's Loud and Fast, and you're smiling, really, nobody cares whether you're cold or hot!

And you won't need a stereo . . . !

BigRev1 12-01-2013 05:58 PM

I want the ultimate street sleeper, you see a quiet car with the windows up in 80 or 90 degree weather and don't hear turbo or charger on it you think it's not much to it. LOL And not having a stereo system in the car would be like not having a bed in the RV.

roadkill2 12-02-2013 05:43 AM

You said: "I want the ultimate street sleeper"

Tongue in cheek just a little here, but if thats the case, the engine is nowhere big enough . . A new Caddy will take you out . .

BigRev1 12-03-2013 05:08 PM

With 900 horsepower at the crank and 300 at the push of a button I doubt that will happen. That's what engine builder said crank hp should be. But I will know for sure in a couple weeks, when I go see it on the dyno.

roadkill2 12-04-2013 05:31 AM

I dunno. I've watched several Caddy CTS-V's run 10.30's at 4800' altitude on a day with bad air . . With nothing more than a tweak and street slicks . . And those Batmobiles came to the track under their own power. No trailer queens there . .

With all due respect, you're starting with a relatively heavy car and are probably optimistic about the output of your bullet . . We run 9 flats with a very healthy 582 in a 2700# Camaro and the math sez it's making about 940 HP.

Of course, again, we're racing at altitude where you have the benefit of heavier air. I can't remember a race (or pass) last year that didn't have a corrected air density of less than 7800' . . .

BigRev1 12-04-2013 10:06 PM

The car should be about 3500 pounds give or take 50. But if it run a 10 anything on the motor it will be for sale. LOL The hp numbers are what the builder told me and also said I can take it anywhere with good dyno, if I don't believe him and his dyno.

BigRev1 12-04-2013 10:09 PM

The car should be about 3500 pounds give or take 50. But if it run a 10 anything on the motor it will be for sale. LOL The hp numbers are what the builder told me and also said I can take it anywhere with good dyno, if I don't believe him and his dyno.

roadkill2 12-05-2013 04:48 AM

A Timeslip is always better info than a Dyno, and that's usually what keeps engine builders honest . . . Heh, heh . . .

BigRev1 12-05-2013 08:58 PM

Road Kill i got a question for you. What transmission shop, would you refer for 700r4 for that hp? And thanks in advance.

BigRev1 12-05-2013 08:59 PM

Road Kill i got a question for you. What transmission shop, would you refer for 700r4 for that hp? And thanks in advance.

roadkill2 12-06-2013 05:38 AM

I don't have a clue . . A 700R4 is a "Borderline" trans when you're addressing gobs of HP. I have one in my '34 but with a Blown Small Block, However, I don't race it or even "Stress It" . . It's a cruiser . . 2125 @ 80 mph . . Can't beat that!

If you are thinking 700+ Hp and a 4sp O'drive trans, I'd recommend a L80E at the least. They're designed to take the punishment that the LS series dishes out and would probably stay together longer.

But this is all supposition on my part because if you're going to seriously race a 700 Hp car with an automatic trans, and expect both performance and little breakage under Horsepower, you'd best put a good commercial Racing 'Glide in it and live with the two speeds it comes with . .

But there's guys who race in No Box and King Street who run Turbo 350's and Mopar 727's and have good luck with 'em . . Rule of thumb, each shift is worth just about .3 tenths more on your E.T.

I'm kind of Old School Drag Racer, and believe that back when they first booted me into the "Gas Class" at the Drag Strip (1957), the street was no longer my playground . . the Track was!

This is just my opinion though, tempered with some past experience. There are other experts up here that may have other ideas and convictions that may serve you better.

zipper06 12-06-2013 11:53 AM

I agree with RK on this one, i think the 700R4 will be toast after a short time and you'll have spent $2500.00 to have it built.
Jim Hughes build a pretty serious 4L80 trans that will probably stand up to 900 HP, but they are not cheap.
Another alternative is to build a good PG and put ( Gear Venders OD ) on the back of it, they are good to 2,000 HP, and almost all the street cars that run the worlds fastest street cars use them.
I too have been drag racing since 1956, and have run everything from stock to blown alcohol big and sm/blk engines

JMO

Zip.

BigRev1 12-06-2013 01:42 PM

Thanks guys for the info. The car will just be a weekend cruiser that might go to shows and the track on special occasions, but it's main duty will be just cruising and play with my buddies mustangs and camaros. But I do want some times on the motor and spray. I might do a little hustling with it. LOL

roadkill2 12-07-2013 03:10 PM

Watch out for Cadillacs!

BigRev1 12-07-2013 11:24 PM

Are you talking about in the rearview mirror? Because that's the only way I will see them. LOL I like you, Road Kill you are very funny.

roadkill2 12-08-2013 08:43 AM

Actually I'm kind of serious . . Just don't want you to be disappointed when one of these new Street Rockets blow by you . . or worse, some AWD rice rocket with a big wing on the back and a loud Sub woofer . .

Just in case anybody out there is unaware, Ford, GM and Mopar are all putting out, on the streets, "Muscle Cars" that make the originals look like gramma's pansy station wagon . . Used to be, if you had a '64 Plymouth with either a 413 wedge with a cross ram or the killer 426 Hemi in it, you were a "Streetsweeper" . . And your car would run, probably, on a good evening, 12 flat at the strip. Today, that same car's NHRA SS/AH index is 9.30 I believe.

But in order to get a sub index pass out of it you'll probably invest about $125k in it and it's a "Race Car", period.

Now that that's been said, on Monday morning you can go down to your favorite car dealer and buy a brand new car that will, with little adjustment, run a quarter in less than 10.60. Mustangs, COPO Camaros, Corvettes and, yes Virginia, even Cadillacs, all are very capable of doing this. And some, after a little tweaking, are a lot quicker and faster!

And although there's no reason you can't compete with the new ones, just remember, if your rocket won't run a quarter in less than 11 seconds flat, it ain't a rocket . . It's just a cruiser with loud pipes . .

Jus sayin' . . It's a Jungle out there!

TheYellaBrick 12-08-2013 09:25 AM

Modern technological advances in metallurgy, air/fuel management systems, ignition, transmissions, traction control, all go up against the 'modern' technology of our youth....which is as already stated, crude, blued, and screwed on today's mean streets.
Personally, I'd make it my goal to just flat acknowledge those facts, and just be the fastest in the 'old school' playground. THAT still takes knowledge, ability, craftsmanship, desire,et al .....The new 'muscle cars' of today are fast right outa the showroom, just like OUR cars were in 'the day' .....at least we're not stuck with the garbage scows of the '80's !

BigRev1 12-08-2013 06:27 PM

Road Kill engine builder said at 3200 pounds car should run very very low 6s in the 1/8 mile on motor and on the spray 5.40. So, I think I might be able to keep them off.

My buddy just got a new Camaro Black Panther and I got to be able to put my foot in his as ( you what I mean ), then and only then every penny I spent will be all worth it for me. So I'm trying to get this done the first time, but if it's necessary I will put in a little more.


What you guys ( Road Kill and Race Junkie ) suggest? Should I tell the builder to find more hp. Like always thanks in advance.

zipper06 12-08-2013 10:11 PM


Originally Posted by BigRev1
Road Kill engine builder said at 3200 pounds car should run very very low 6s in the 1/8 mile on motor and on the spray 5.40. So, I think I might be able to keep them off.

My buddy just got a new Camaro Black Panther and I got to be able to put my foot in his as ( you what I mean ), then and only then every penny I spent will be all worth it for me. So I'm trying to get this done the first time, but if it's necessary I will put in a little more.


What you guys ( Road Kill and Race Junkie ) suggest? Should I tell the builder to find more hp. Like always thanks in advance.

Use this site to caculate all your theories under idea conditions, but i don't think it will run these numbers thru the mufflers.

Zip.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

roadkill2 12-09-2013 06:42 AM

Ain't that a wunnerful site? (Wallace racing calculators)

zipper06 12-09-2013 01:36 PM


Originally Posted by roadkill2
Ain't that a wunnerful site? (Wallace racing calculators)

HeHe, theories


Zip.

roadkill2 12-10-2013 08:07 AM

The only other answer is a Time Slip. They actually validate your efforts (or lack thereof)

Y'think?

BigRev1 12-10-2013 02:06 PM

When I get it going I let you guys know the numbers thru the mufflers. With full weight and with the car on a diet.


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