oil pressure drops at topend of the track

[Swiley383]

I ran my car for the first time this year on Friday. I saw the oil pressure was down to about 15 to 20 psi as I crossed the finish line at a little over 6,000 rpm (I shift at 6500}Idle oil pressure is fine as well as driving around the pits. I changed the oil before racing since the car has set all winter with 20W50 VR1 and a wix oil filter. I also noticed when I let off pass the finish line it took a second to return to normal pressure. Do I need to worry about this or could it be a gauge problem? The motor is a 12.6 to 1 383 sbc with Eagle 4340 rotating assembly Dart pro 1 heads and a solid flat tapped cam with a high volume oil pump (not a melling I think its a speed pro). The motor has been together for about 7 years but has not been ran very much. The motor has a 7qt pan with trap doors in and I am running the 1/8 mi. any ideas?

[roadkill2]

Just a SWAG here, but I'd guess that you're running out of oil. It's all in the assemly, with little left in the sump.

It might also be that the "Trap Doors" aren't working . . Which, again. would account for the "Running out of Oil" deal. It isn't letting the oil come back, and it isn't keeping it there once it gets there . .

Note the word "GUESS" . . .

[TheYellaBrick]

This bullet have a windage tray ? If not, you're probably getting a lot of rope action going on where the oil isn't getting back down to the pickup.

[Swiley383]

no it dose not have a windage tray. Should I pull the pan or is the pressure droping enough to cause any damage?

[oldandtired]

Agree with Roadkill

Probably pumping all the oil to the top side. I bet you don't have restrictors.

[Swiley383]

no, there are no restrictors in the motor. Should that be somthing I should look into adding?

[curtisreed]

My two cents here. I am really surprised you are having trouble only running the 1/8. I would add a 1/2 quart first and see if that makes any difference. I could be that you are pumping the oil up top and it can't drain back fast enough.

I mean you no offense but for the life of me I can't understand why people run high volume oil pumps in a SBC. I can't imagine the clearances you would have to have to run out of volume with a std. pump.

Were you having this problem before you changed oitl? If not then I would look at your filter. That is probably not the problem but if it just started, then that and the oil is all that changed.

If you run a vacuum pump or you have much blow-by that is all trying to come to the top where the relief is, and the oil that is up top is trying to get back down. It gets worse if you run vents in the drain holes over the cam, screens over the drain holes at the ends, etc..... Big fight for space between the two. Improving drain back from the heads is a big plus. Just my observations. Many others are better versed than I.

Curtis

[hammertime]

This is a pretty common problem, usually a oil pan issue and oil running away from the pickup. Sometimes more oil will fix it but not often.

[Swiley383]

never noticed before I have never looked at the gauge going down the track until this time out only then because I had to lift as I got the car straighned out I just happend to look at the gauge. As for the droping after the finish line seems like it has always droped slightly but I don't remember it being this much of a drop. I always check my gauge after the finish line I really don't wont to take a chance hurting this motor. I have heard differnt ideas on safe oil pressure levels what is your thoughs on oil pressure levels?

[Swiley383]

I also don't know how it could be running out of oil in the 1/8. The big block I ran for a long time had a stock pan and a HV pump with no problems. I was only shifting that motor a 5500. When I first built the 383 there was a problem with the oil pump I had. When the motor reached about 180 degrees the the pressure would fall to nearly 0. I tore it back down an replaced the the pump and bearings just to be safe. That is when I learned of the problems with Melling pumps and did not use a melling the second time around and never had anther problem. I do not remember why I put a high volume pump in this one I learned more since then and know they are really not needed.

[curtisreed]

The fluctuation on the brakes is pretty typical. I run an oil accumulator for that very reason. I have ran 3 different pans and have had oil control problems with all 3. I didn't want to have to be concerned if I got on the brakes hard. David is right about the oil running away from the pick up.

You added that you didn't notice it until you lifted getting the car straightened out. Sounds like maybe the oil was moving away from the pick up then. Did you see the pressure drop under power, going straight, at the finish line on another pass?

[Swiley383]

Yes, I did I started watching it going down track the pressure was getting down to around 20 to 25 psi on every pass. I beleive I made 5 more passes and it droped every time.

[markdunlap]

Is the oil pick up welded to the pump and does it have a brace from the end of the pick up to the pump?

Maybe it fell off the pump.

[TheYellaBrick]

Or in the process of falling off and suckin' air/oil. Looks like dropping the pan might be in the future.

Electrical or mechanical gauge/sender ?

[itsabird]

Sounds like oil pan issue, trap door, or nothing to keep the oil from running up the back of the pan on acc..

[Swiley383]

Its a mechanical gauge. The pick up has a bracket on it that bolts to the pump housing I can't remeber if I welded it also.

[oldandtired]

Is the oil pick up welded to the pump and does it have a brace from the end of the pick up to the pump?

Maybe it fell off the pump.

A very real possibility.

[Swiley383]

sounds like I need to pull the pan and check and I may try anther pan as well can you guys recomend a a good pan with a kick out sump an a 7 or 8qt capacity

[zipper06]

sounds like I need to pull the pan and check and I may try anther pan as well can you guys recomend a a good pan with a kick out sump an a 7 or 8qt capacity

Moroso with built in screen wiper.

JMO

Zip.

[Swiley383]

I am also thinking of changing the pump while at it what is your thoughts on this? Should I wait and see if the pan fixes the problem and would switching from 20W50 VR1 to 10W30 make any difference? I know the folks on here have more experence and knowledge than I do. I just want to make sure I cover everything.

[roadkill2]

The kink in this mystery lies in the fact(s) that you're running an eighth mile and dropping pressure like you were running out of oil, but . . You still have oil pressure. Not a lot, but . . some.

Generally, when you run out of oil, the pressure goes completely away or the needle dances. Your pressure doesn't just taper off or drop to a new level.

So, it could be the guage, or it could be the pressure relief spring in the pump. It could also be where the oil pressure line is tapped off of . .

Of course these, again, are just SWAGs because we don't really have enough information. Nor do you, apparently, although it's better to ask now than when the rods make new windows and you end up with a puzzle . .

Pull the pan and look there first. Generally, it should be pretty simple, because short of the Ford Cleveland (Milwaukee), oil systems on internal combustion engines are generally pretty simple . .

[Swiley383]

The oil pressure line is tapped off the top of the block behind the intake and is ran using a copper line.

[Swiley383]

one more question what brand of pump recommended by you guys? I have had bad luck out of Mellings int the past.I have been checking options and prices there are a lot of options out there.

[markdunlap]

CVR makes a nice steel oil pump.

If I had the pan off with oil pressure issues , I believe I would change the rod and main bearings out.

There is a small aluminum tool made to go in the main bearing oil hole to roll out the top bearing shell and roll the new one back in. Or you can make one out of a small aluminum bolt.

[Swiley383]

Do you know where I can get one of those tools or have a picture of one so I can see What I need to make?

[curtisreed]

You can take a large cotter key, put it in a vice and smash the loop end down into a T shape. It needs the top or cross piece the be not thicker than the bearing shell. Then you put the leg down in the oil hole, turn the crank and the bearing half will spin out. That said I might look at a couple of bearings before I worried about changing them all. Unless you have seen any bearing material when you changed oil they are probably ok. You do what you feel is best though.

The pan I use is from Champ pans. Does a fair job of oil control, although I still run an accumulator for piece of mind when I have to park it at the finish line or stop on a short track.

http://www.champpans.com/index.cfm?event=productdetail&id=83

Or Jegs is selling B&B pans under the Jegs label.

The oil pump I run is the 22124 with a higher pressure spring installed.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/22124/10002/-1

Just my combination, take it for what it is worth.

Curtis

[Swiley383]

Thanks for all the information. It will be a few weeks before I will have a chance to pull the pan I will let you know what I find. Thanks again.

[markdunlap]

You have a private message.

Look at the top of the page.

[oldandtired]

Personally I would pull the engine to look at it. Since it's a race car, it's not as hard as a street car.
Put the engine on a stand, drain the oil and pull the pan BEFORE rotating it. All the trash will stay in the pan.

JMO

[TheYellaBrick]

You can take a large cotter key, put it in a vice and smash the loop end down into a T shape.
Curtis

WARNING !!! DO NOT use the cotter key method if the engine is out, on a stand, and upside down. I just tried this tonight and the key lodged into and then sheered off at the oil galley outlet. Had to pull the crank without pulling the heads. Got it out by myself but might require and extra set of hands to drop it back in. Pissed to say the least......GET A DEDICATED TOOL for this job.!!!

[fla1976]

I believe the name of the product used to be "Sneaky Pete".

[markdunlap]

Not to be confused with SNEAKY Pete Robinson or the NOS product you hide under your intake manifold.

[TheYellaBrick]

Only for R&R ing seals;

http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-27000-Sneaky-Pete-Tool/dp/B0002SRCJW

[TheYellaBrick]

HERE we go !

https://millerspecialtools.spx.com/Detail.aspx?id=1042

Just ordered one, This place is cheaper than others by $20 but shipping is OUTA SIGHT ! :shock:

[curtisreed]

You can take a large cotter key, put it in a vice and smash the loop end down into a T shape.
Curtis

WARNING !!! DO NOT use the cotter key method if the engine is out, on a stand, and upside down. I just tried this tonight and the key lodged into and then sheered off at the oil galley outlet. Had to pull the crank without pulling the heads. Got it out by myself but might require and extra set of hands to drop it back in. Pissed to say the least......GET A DEDICATED TOOL for this job.!!!

Sorry you had trouble. I've seen it done several times by people wanting to shortcut the job.

Curtis

[TheYellaBrick]

Hey Curtis, It would've worked if the engine was right side up ie; in chassis.

[Swiley383]

I think I fixed the problem this weekend haven't had time to mess
With til now. The oil pressure gauge seems to have been the problem. Started changing out the gauge and found oil every where. The carpet under the gauge on the trans tunnel was covered. I can't find any
Leaks now but the housing of the gauge was coved with oil the line is not leaking. The pressure is staying more stable under rpm and back to idle no pressure drop when the rpm fall. I will try to make it to the track the weekend after next and see what it looks going down the track.

[bixblk]

FYI
I had a 496 BBC that the tach welds broke on the "flapper" in the oil pan, I was not as fortunate as you, mine got caught under the pick up and starved the motor, I noticed the pressure was down but went back up, on the way to the pits .went to start it for the next run and :(, motor locked up, it was @ pinks all out too. It was a high quality pan and got zero customer satisfaction from the company. FYI

[Swiley383]

I am really hoping the gauge is all it was when I rev it up now climbs steady and when the rpm fall back to idle the psi never gets below 40. I just need to make a pass to get the motor under a load to say for sure.

[bixblk]

Need to get the car in motion , or as engineers say "in dynamic configuration" (what ????) move the oil around, launch the car get the rpm up and the mph up, get that bad boy down the track and feed it some octanel and oil . Good Luck ,,,,,good chance that was the problem.