To heat or not . .

[roadkill2]

The boss (Bear4333) and I have had a running discussion about the heat in the BBC we're running . . I've always labored under the conception (or misconception) that Chevy's (both kinds) like to be "Toasty' up on the starting line . . somewhere between 180° and 195° . . The Boss disagrees and backs his 160-170° argument with quotes from Reher-Morrison and others . . not to mention, results . .

I'm beginning to believe that he's not only right but it should be almost dead cold (110°) when you start it in the lanes . . And that goes for the Transgression too . . The converter seems to be a lot happier with cold fluid than when it's around 160-175° . . Leaves harder, more consistent and goes quicker . . (1.38 sixty fts, [email protected], 2825# iron Camaro in 9400' corrected air)

Is a "Warm Up" just wasting 116 octane? Discussion?

[fast75vega]

185-195 at the line is too hot in my opinion.... i like to be no more then 160 after the water box ..... im normally around 185-190 at the end of my run but this is with a SBC w/glide

[itsabird]

185-195 at the line is too hot in my opinion.... i like to be no more then 160 after the water box ..... im normally around 185-190 at the end of my run but this is with a SBC w/glidex2

[mopar1968]

x3

[outlaw256]

well make that x4. i dont care what so-called engine builders, tuners whatever say.from a metal mans own mouth 160 -170 is what metal prefers to do its work in.now ive run big blocks small blocks and almost no blocks lol and ive noticed that any car we have had seems to do its best when its 160-170.trans included. the cooler the trans =less friction.according to a guy whos built racing trans for 50 yrs.back in the mid 80s i had a 55 that i could not get to run consistant at all. my buddy who built engines for many more yrs than i told me to write down my temps at the launch and at the end on my timeslips.do that for a few weeks and bring them to him. he went over them and showed me that when my car launched at 150-170 i had alot better times.when it was runnin any hotter i realy dropped. sooooo. we made sure that little old car stayed cool.

[roadkill2]

Good discussion . . I'm pretty old school about a lot of stuff that has changed greatly over the last few years . . Add to that, For over 20 years I was tuning and tweaking a Blown Alky engine so just getting heat into it was sometimes a chore . .

And, it used to be, you could fatten up your car and go up to the lights dragging your feet a little, get the other guy a little hotter and his clutch/converter would hook up harder and quicker because his engine built more HP from being hotter . . Not a "Burn Down", but just part of the old racing strategies . . (done it, been done to)

Thus, one would tend to believe, a "toasty" motor is a powerful motor . . . maybe just an "Unpredictable one" instead?

I can tell you for a fact, heat "loosens" up a converter proportionally . . so if you want a predictable converter, the less heat the better (I think). Anyway, our results tend to bear out that theory.

[jmarksdragster]

Every engine need the oil to be warm to lower friction, however temperature that the rest of the the engine need doesn't need to be much, the cooler engine is the more thermally stable it is. The induction is a different issue, it need enough to add the appropriate heat or energy to the fuel to ensure even distribution without excessively sacrificing air density. The more efficient the carb and induction is the lower the temps can be, and the more power you can make because the air is denser. Next time you go to a national event ask the Pro Stock guys why they cool the water through the engine to 70 degrees or lower...

[TheYellaBrick]

Depends if the heads are iron or aluminum and what kind of fuel. Either way, you need enough heat in the heads for proper and complete combustion to take advantage of the cool intake charge.

[TheRabbit]

I put heat in my motor ,about 170 to 180*'s about 30 - 45 mins before I run then let it cool. I've never had a motor that liked to run under 155ish so I always stage at 160 to 170. With that being said I will not stage until I get it back down to 180. It only takes a second or two to go from 185 to 200 in most race cars. I use to worry about mine when it hit 200-210+ on the return road, but have had to do it a lot. NASCAR motors run at 240*'s all the time, but I'm not going to let mine get near that hot.

[fast75vega]

NASCAR motors run at 240*'s all the time

they also use other peoples money to build them.... we use are own..... lmao

[TheRabbit]

NASCAR motors run at 240*'s all the time

they also use other peoples money to build them.... we use are own..... lmao

That's exactly why I said mine wasn't going to get that high.

My engine builder is a good friend and was one of the engine builders for Joe Gibbs for a few years. He kills me when he just starts rambling on about don't worry about it. They use to run there engines at 9,000+rpm's and 240*'s and this and that all day and it didn't hurt them. I have to remind him all the time who he's talking too and how much I'll cry if mine comes apart. :cry:

[roadkill2]

And . . The NASCAR engine builders are another of the sources of my long held beliefs . . I have a friend who is one of Childress' HP hunters. His job is to massage the head and find .25 of a HP . . I get feedback from him on this from time to time, and those guys will tell you that their Gen IV engines run on a very narrow Temp range of 235-240° and they have the technology to keep them there . . (except for hot dog wrappers)

But, (and this is why I put this up here) we're doing something entirely different, with (actually) entirely different engines and purpose . .

On the Pro Stock thing, might be a good idea. Back when we were running a super comp car, we cooled it with a "Cool Tank" we had in the trailer. It held 40 gallons of water and a small radiator. We had a 12 v pump on it and had hydraulic quick connect fittings on the block and hoses. After a pass we'd just hook the car up to the trailer and as part of the between round maint, cool it to 100° . . fast! Of course this was a FED so just circulating water through the block did the trick.

Anything below about 100° might require some expensive hardware though. This summer, at most races, we've been in 104°+ temperatures, so getting coolant below ambient air temps could be tough to do . . .

[TheYellaBrick]

You could place a small window AC unit in front of that cool tank radiator.

[TheRabbit]

Getting off subject, but I'll add I use a 2 1/2 gallon garden sprayer with a fine mist through my radiator ( fan is a puller mounted outside) and I can bring mine down 30 to 40*'s really quick between rounds. I don't have to use it often, but it's always in the trailer when I do need it.

We have a few guys that use a pump and pump water out of a cooler through the motors. Cheap cool box, but it works. An old idea that people use to do was a hot bottom end (bottom filled solid) and cold heads.

[TheYellaBrick]

OH MAN,... I STILL like those hot bottom ends ! :lol:

[coloradoracerguy]

I'm at about 100-110 when I start my burnout. Car is more consistent when it's there than if it's hotter. May just be my stuff, but definately happier when it's cooler.

[outlaw256]

thats way to cool.

[Scooterz]

But wouldn't the elevation have some effect on Marks set up & ETA too?

[outlaw256]

that it would scooter. big time!

[roadkill2]

OH MAN,... I STILL like those hot bottom ends ! :lol:

"WhatchootalkinaboutWillis?"

Heh, heh . . .

On Marks post. Altitude has some effects on hot n' cold . . We don't have a lot of air up here . . Where we race we're about 1500 feet lower than Mark but racing in 8500-9500 foot air is common in both places. We'll be up there weekend after next for the Super Chevy deal and we can count on just about two tenths off our dial at our home track, but the engine temperatures are generally the same. Of course, at those altitudes the boiling point of water is harder to achieve and it takes a little bit longer to gain temperature in an engine . . (A three minute egg is about a five minute egg at Bandimere's), but because of the thin air, it's also a little harder to cool off if you're just using air for your convection medium . . (High School Physics)

A cold intake provides for a denser mixture, which is very important when you don't have much air, and cold Fuel makes a difference (to a point) as long as it still vaporizes . .

The place where heat is needed is the cylinders and rings . . We all know cold leak down is greater than when an engine has heat in it . . and there's the rest of the engine that has to come to operating tolerances designed for running at 175-185°. Valve lash will affect your cam duration and lift, and there's other little things that don't fit quite as well cold as when hot . .

Just more grist for the mill . . . .

[Scooterz]

that it would scooter. big time!

I know its kind of a rookie question...

I take this part for granted here in Oregon. We are basically at sea level... as much as 300ft above... makes for easy tuning. I notice elevation problems when up in the mountains w/ my dirt bike or RV generator... but not on the street or strip near here. I asked this b/c I had a car shipped from NM (maybe 5000+ ft) & it ran terrible here until it was re-jetted & re-tuned quite a bit. It was set up for bracket racing & it was like night & day difference.

[coloradoracerguy]

Just want to comment on the water boiling at altitude thing and the temp I start my burnout. While water does boil at a lower temp up here at altitude, that rule does not apply since the cooling system is not only a sealed system but also under pressure. Raising the pressure raises the boiling point and the cooling system doesn't care about altitude. There is less air to make power with though, that is a fact and you'll loose around .6 in et from sea level to here. Also, while my water temp is about 100-110 (not too cool at all), my other fluids are at operating temp or slightly below. My routine works, 8.554, 8.555, 8.554 were my last runs under competition and were made over a period of about six hours. Now if the driver could only do that with his reaction times............

Racing super Chevy show? Wifey is supposed to sing the National Anthem and if I can get my new trans installed I'll be running too!

[TheYellaBrick]

Record her singing, PLEASE ! And post it here, We all LOVE to hear that song......

[coloradoracerguy]

Record her singing, PLEASE ! And post it here, We all LOVE to hear that song......

For now, check out my homepage. There's a link there for when she did the Anthem for the Mile High Nationals in 2009! I'll try to get it filmed this time, but I'll be racing instead of spectating and it's a bit harder to make it happen!

[Scooterz]

She did a fine job... I could not hit those notes to save my life!!

[TheYellaBrick]

Chills and tears of PRIDE.....
Man...listen to that crowd ! I LOVE IT !

[roadkill2]

Rigsby . . Altitude makes a big difference, especially once you're above about 3000' MSL, and the temperature gets much above 85°. The "Air" just goes away . . add in a 5 mph wind and it gets worse.

Years ago there was motorcycle classes for the Pikes Peak Hill Climb, and a couple of times we did that . . Talk about a tuner's nightmare. Start at 9000' and go to 14,000' . . 85° at the bottom and about 55° at the top. Had no idea back then about "Air Density, corrected", but I'd bet there was "NONE" . .

But . . In places where there are dense forests surrounding the race track, altitude reads may show less air, but because of the trees, the oxygen content in the air is greater . . it's a real tuner's conundrum. Seattle, Houston, Memphis, all have this particular situation and while it's not as big a deal to the normally aspirated cars, add a blower with Alky and your exhaust temperature problems seem to multiply, while your weather station is telling you there is no air . . Add Nitro and it gets real edgy.

And Mark's pretty close on the temp thing, I think. We try to keep the water at about 100°, engine oil(pan Temp)@ 115-120° and the converter @ 120-135°, depending upon the time given between rounds . . We try to come into the water at about 160° and it's usually about 170° at the launch . . And the longer you're against the converter the softer the leave . . Just sharing what I think I've learned . .

And we'll be listening on Saturday (Super Chevy) for your wife . . We're the purple 67 Camaro (The Grape Ape) in S/Pro . . If we get a chance we'll stop by and say Hi . .

[coloradoracerguy]

Rigsby . . Altitude makes a big difference, especially once you're above about 3000' MSL, and the temperature gets much above 85°. The "Air" just goes away . . add in a 5 mph wind and it gets worse.

Years ago there was motorcycle classes for the Pikes Peak Hill Climb, and a couple of times we did that . . Talk about a tuner's nightmare. Start at 9000' and go to 14,000' . . 85° at the bottom and about 55° at the top. Had no idea back then about "Air Density, corrected", but I'd bet there was "NONE" . .

But . . In places where there are dense forests surrounding the race track, altitude reads may show less air, but because of the trees, the oxygen content in the air is greater . . it's a real tuner's conundrum. Seattle, Houston, Memphis, all have this particular situation and while it's not as big a deal to the normally aspirated cars, add a blower with Alky and your exhaust temperature problems seem to multiply, while your weather station is telling you there is no air . . Add Nitro and it gets real edgy.

And Mark's pretty close on the temp thing, I think. We try to keep the water at about 100°, engine oil(pan Temp)@ 115-120° and the converter @ 120-135°, depending upon the time given between rounds . . We try to come into the water at about 160° and it's usually about 170° at the launch . . And the longer you're against the converter the softer the leave . . Just sharing what I think I've learned . .

And we'll be listening on Saturday (Super Chevy) for your wife . . We're the purple 67 Camaro (The Grape Ape) in S/Pro . . If we get a chance we'll stop by and say Hi . .

I'll stop by if I get the chance! New trans isn't here as of yet (saturday), but should be in time enough before the race to get it in the car and tested.

You're not going to be upset when I put you on the trailer in the 1st round now are you??? :D :D :D

[roadkill2]

We don't have a problem with that, just as long as you aren't 'Bagging us . .

Out the back door . . That's drag racing! Wheel racing on the other hand, that isn't racing, that's taking advantage of a situation.

And, because of go1320.com, we all know how fast everyone else can go . . If the air's good at all, we should be running about 9.50s, low 9.60s . . We'll see . . .

But, racing with friends is a lot more fun than racing "That other Guy" . . And, if we lose, you're buying the Beer . . that works both ways . . Hope you like Coors Lite . . I think we keep some "Fat Tire" in stock . .

See ya Friday, Mark . .

[coloradoracerguy]

Looks like I'll be watching you from the tower......Ran into problems again tonight, so calling it a season. Getting tired of spending money and getting no runs..........Good luck to you guys, I'll look for you while I'm there.

[coloradoracerguy]

Hey roadkill, looked for you guys last night but must have missed you! How'd ya do? I was really wishing I could have raced, that's for sure!

[roadkill2]

We got trimmed first round by a couple of thousanths on the tree . . Good race but it's a game of "ticks" . . .

We broke our throttle stop Friday and didn't get it figured out until late Fri afternoon so the first tune pass on Sat morning was a "throw away" . . We set it a little too soft and got nailed on the tree . .

"Rookies" . . !

But Pueblo won big . . Larry Richardson won S/Pro and Clint Fosseco won both Pro and DOT . . . Tough Neighborhood down there!

Shoulda been there, you'd have been supplying the beer!
(Winners buy, y'know)

C'mon down for the State Championships this next weekend . . Look forward to seeing you . .

[coloradoracerguy]

Wish I could, but new trans failed again. I'm done with it, got a buyer for the car and am getting a new one........Will be awhile before whole deal works out, but it's done.................I can't wait!!!