Milky oil and alcohol

[kod99]

I am having some very serious oil milking problems this season.

598 BBC with Dart Pro2 heads, Enderle 80A-1 fuel pump, Ron's Terminator, Moroso vacuum pump.

I ran the engine on the dyno before putting it in the car, and got the best HP / Torque figures with #38 nozzles and a #45 pill. The dyno even indiacted that the engine wanted more fuel, but this was the biggest nozzles / smallest pill I had at the time.

I warmed the car up to set the timing and valve lash. It was idling for about 10 minutes and the temp was only at 110 F. In that 10 minutes, it burned about 5 gallons of alcohol.

I just made my first run with the new configuration and my oil foamed up so badly that the vacuum pump filled the catch can and forced about a quart of oil out of the catch can breather all over the engine. I know the car is running too rich. The temp at the end of the run was 140 F.

The correct intake fitting for the vacuum pump is mounted on the end of the valve cover, as recommended by Moroso.

I can build more engine temp and reduce the oil milking by increasing the pill size but is there any way to reduce the amount of oil the vacuum pump is picking up?

The fuel pressure at an idle is 60 psi and 170 psi at full throttle. Does this sound high? Should I be running a bypass valve?

Any ideas?

[zipper06]

What do you have your barrel valve leakdown set at, I would suggest around 22 lbs. also i would run a highspeed bypass valve set around 70 lbs. The nozzles are big enough (IMO) The nozzles are flowed at 65 lbs.
I would think with a -1 pump you should be running a pill some where around .080 with that size motor.
5 gals of fuel in 10 mins. is definately excessive, also when idling i would suggest you close off the fuel shutoff 1/2 way. I and most of the people i know do this and drive up thru the staging lines with the fuel 1/2 shut off, this helps with the milking of the oil, and puts some heat in the motor before the run.

JMO

Zip.

[bbchevy]

I am having some very serious oil milking problems this season.

598 BBC with Dart Pro2 heads, Enderle 80A-1 fuel pump, Ron's Terminator, Moroso vacuum pump.

I ran the engine on the dyno before putting it in the car, and got the best HP / Torque figures with #38 nozzles and a #45 pill. The dyno even indiacted that the engine wanted more fuel, but this was the biggest nozzles / smallest pill I had at the time.

I warmed the car up to set the timing and valve lash. It was idling for about 10 minutes and the temp was only at 110 F. In that 10 minutes, it burned about 5 gallons of alcohol.

I just made my first run with the new configuration and my oil foamed up so badly that the vacuum pump filled the catch can and forced about a quart of oil out of the catch can breather all over the engine. I know the car is running too rich. The temp at the end of the run was 140 F.

The correct intake fitting for the vacuum pump is mounted on the end of the valve cover, as recommended by Moroso.

I can build more engine temp and reduce the oil milking by increasing the pill size but is there any way to reduce the amount of oil the vacuum pump is picking up?

The fuel pressure at an idle is 60 psi and 170 psi at full throttle. Does this sound high? Should I be running a bypass valve?

Any ideas?

I SURE HOPE You have a 1060 Terminator,and NOT a 1055?You NEED the Bigger Injector with Your Combo!
You Realy could use a 39 or 40 Nozzle.I have a 496 and I have 38's in Mine!
I DONT Understand the .045 Main?You should be in the .085 Range,do you have a High Flow Barrel Valve?Gray or Purple?
Zip's dead on with the L/Down.
DID You have the PUMP Flowed?A -1 Enderle,should be in the 6.5 gal range?
LMK?
Later
G 8)

[kod99]

What do you have your barrel valve leakdown set at, I would suggest around 22 lbs. also i would run a highspeed bypass valve set around 70 lbs. The nozzles are big enough (IMO) The nozzles are flowed at 65 lbs.
I would think with a -1 pump you should be running a pill some where around .080 with that size motor.
5 gals of fuel in 10 mins. is definately excessive, also when idling i would suggest you close off the fuel shutoff 1/2 way. I and most of the people i know do this and drive up thru the staging lines with the fuel 1/2 shut off, this helps with the milking of the oil, and puts some heat in the motor before the run.

JMO

Zip.

Thanks Zip.
My barrel valve is at at 24% leakdown.
The reason I started with this configuration is that it gave the best HP and torque on the dyno. It was run on the dyno with no high speed bypass.
Ron's recommendations were much leaner and when I tried using them last season, the car keopt stalling on me after the burnout or at the top end when I release the accelerator pedal.
I tried pulling the fuel shut off out half way, but as the engine leaned the idle RPM climbed to over 2200 ( I probably pulled it out too far). I didn't have a lot of time to experiment with the proper setting to lean it out.
The fuel pressure seems excessively high to me. The more pressure, the more fuel through the orifice (pill) and also more to the main jets. The system in at 60 psi idling.

[hammertime]

Do you run a egt or a o2 senor ? if so what are them readings.

I assume your not leaving the fuel shutoff, in all the time correct ?

Few things right off, 45 pill is well off in left field, you should jump to a 39 nozzel and a 86 pill. 2nd thing, dyno's always love fuel, we dont race them though, so the data there is usually a bit off. It may make the most there on the dyno but will not in the car.

Did you buy the setup used or new from rons ? I've never had any luck with the setup that Ron's give me unless its from James Monroe. Your best bet is to call him if you want to talk to Rons. www.killerrons.com

Likely what is coming out of the breather from the vacuum canister will not stop if it is a older canister, the new ones do not do this. You need to get a wrist sweat band and put over it, or zip tie some type of rag around it, that is a very common problem. I just purchased Moroso new canister and it took care of that issue vs the older ones.

Injection is rather simple and I am sure you'll get it. A primer would be a great investment.

[hammertime]

system in at 60 psi idling.

also this is way to much, and your high side is to much also.

Find a 0 1/2 pump and make it a simple deal.. 1 pumps can be tricky to get right sometimes IMO

[ccperf721p]

First thing I would do is take your dyno sheets, throw them in the trash and forget about them. How they ended up with a system that fat and good numbers is beyond me but that is another matter all together.

Second, as has been stated by some experienced members, drop back to an 80 main and pull .004 at a time, I'm sure we all think you will end up in the 90's but say 80 just to be on the safe side.

I always do my warm up and drive through the pits with the handle pulled a little over 1/2 way. I also always run the water pump to keep the heat even through the heads.

If you continue to pull severe amounts of oil from the valve cover, run a baffle over the fitting inside the valve cover. At the end of an 8 pass race day I will usually have a couple ounces of oil and 6 or 7 ounces of methanol and condensation in the tank.

[zipper06]

system in at 60 psi idling.

also this is way to much, and your high side is to much also.

Find a 0 1/2 pump and make it a simple deal.. 1 pumps can be tricky to get right sometimes IMO

David has a valid point on the pump. I know this is apples and oranges in this post because i'm running Toilet bowl, but i was running a 0-1/2 pump with a 4.1 Toilet bowl, i didn't flush out the pump for about 2 months between races. bottom line i was running between .085 and .095 pill. The pump locked up and broke the drive belt. I installed a 0-1 pump, went back to the track. i made a couple passes trying to get it right. The largest pill i had was a .135 where i was able to make a somewhat decent pass. It was still so fat i scrubbed off 3 MPH and 2 tenths slower. Fortunately i have a couple pumps and am now running a "0" pump with a .070 pill and back on target.

JMO

Zip.

[kod99]

Do you run a egt or a o2 senor ? if so what are them readings.

I assume your not leaving the fuel shutoff, in all the time correct ?

Few things right off, 45 pill is well off in left field, you should jump to a 39 nozzel and a 86 pill. 2nd thing, dyno's always love fuel, we dont race them though, so the data there is usually a bit off. It may make the most there on the dyno but will not in the car.

Did you buy the setup used or new from rons ? I've never had any luck with the setup that Ron's give me unless its from James Monroe. Your best bet is to call him if you want to talk to Rons. www.killerrons.com

Likely what is coming out of the breather from the vacuum canister will not stop if it is a older canister, the new ones do not do this. You need to get a wrist sweat band and put over it, or zip tie some type of rag around it, that is a very common problem. I just purchased Moroso new canister and it took care of that issue vs the older ones.

Injection is rather simple and I am sure you'll get it. A primer would be a great investment.

Thanks for the input Hammer.

I will definitely change to 39 main and an 85 pill and see what that does.

I am guilt of leaving the fuel shut off all the way in. Like I said, when I pulled it out to lean the engine and try to build heat, the idle RPM increased to 2200. Did I pull it out too far?

I don't run EGT or O2 sensors, so I don't have that data.

I bought the Terminator 1060 new from Ron's.

The vacuum pump is new from Moroso:
Pump #22840
Breather Tank #85500

I will try the wrist band idea, it sounds like it should work. My breather sits up in the airflow, so I did make the run with a piece of duct tape over the forward facing area of the breater screen to stop the high speed air from being forced into the breather can.
I am going to build a small aluminum shroud around the oil intake fitting inside the valve cover.

Instead of changing the fuel pump, can I put my high speed bypass back in with the spring set at 85 psi? That should regulate the fuel pressure.

[hammertime]

The idle will increase as you pull out the fuel shut off, this is normal. Think of it at starving it for fuel a bit to build temp (bascially like a lean out for a carb in a sense) You MUST only be at full fuel from the burnout book to the turn off at the end of the track, it puts to much fuel in at idle if not and this is most of your issue I am sure.

There can be a fine line sometimes on in to far and out to far, 2200 isnt bad and might be a good spot for it, you'll know as it will die if its out to far.

The wrist band deal does work, many people use this for a band-aid fix for the issue. The moroso canister to get is No. 85467

You can run a high speed to fix the 1 pump, but its all a pressure deal and a 0 1/2 would be a quick fix, maybe call Enderle and see if they can re-size it ?

Let me know if I can help you with the injection any further.

[kod99]

The idle will increase as you pull out the fuel shut off, this is normal. Think of it at starving it for fuel a bit to build temp (bascially like a lean out for a carb in a sense) You MUST only be at full fuel from the burnout book to the turn off at the end of the track, it puts to much fuel in at idle if not and this is most of your issue I am sure.

There can be a fine line sometimes on in to far and out to far, 2200 isnt bad and might be a good spot for it, you'll know as it will die if its out to far.

The wrist band deal does work, many people use this for a band-aid fix for the issue. The moroso canister to get is No. 85467

You can run a high speed to fix the 1 pump, but its all a pressure deal and a 0 1/2 would be a quick fix, maybe call Enderle and see if they can re-size it ?

Let me know if I can help you with the injection any further.

I changed today to 39 main nozzles and an 80 pill. I cleaned out the breather, it was full of very milky oil. Emulsified and thick.
I also installed a Wolverine 500W oil pan heater.
I will fire it up tomorrow and lean it to warm it up. Then I'll drain and check the oil.

[zipper06]

David has lot's of experience running Rons stuff, and he runs larger engines. my biggest engine is a 434" SM/BLK and it has Hilborn stacks on it. The 4.1 toilet bowl is on a 377" SM/BLK. I'm not a fan of James Monroe, because i've known Ron since the mid 80's when i lived i Phx Az. But i'm sure that David/hammer is spot on on the setup for your setup. No David i'm not kising up to you i just have a lot of respect for what you have done and accomplished with the Rons stuff. Enough said.

Zip.

[ccperf721p]

My opinion, leave the 1 pump in it and tune the engine. I run a 1/2 pump on a stack injected small block. Leave the high speed in the tool box until you get the system tuned to the point of needing it.

Injection is pretty straight forward, but there is no way anyone here can get you on a dead nuts setup, it will still need to be tuned regardless.

There are plenty of books on injection, the one I believe is the best is HRE Fuel Injection Basics. There is also the option of sending the system to someone like Spud Miller or Ralph Gorr with your specs and having them set it up for you.

[hammertime]

David has lot's of experience running Rons stuff, and he runs larger engines. my biggest engine is a 434" SM/BLK and it has Hilborn stacks on it. The 4.1 toilet bowl is on a 377" SM/BLK. I'm not a fan of James Monroe, because i've known Ron since the mid 80's when i lived i Phx Az. But i'm sure that David/hammer is spot on on the setup for your setup. No David i'm not kising up to you i just have a lot of respect for what you have done and accomplished with the Rons stuff. Enough said.

Zip.

Thanks Zip :)

Like all injection is pretty straight foward, I've struggled in the past and decided enough was enough and learned the hard way. My last engine had the same setup in it for 4 years, a 1000hp motor is 39/80 all day, his 1 pump will be a tricky one to nail on the head and leave it alone.

Kod there is a 0 1/2 rons black pump on ebay. If it didnt cost me 40 cents a minute to talk to you in Canada from my cell, I'd run you through everything on the phone. If it comes down to it, I will still do this either way.

What does it idle at in gear (rpm) with the fuel shutoff all the way in ?

[kod99]

David has lot's of experience running Rons stuff, and he runs larger engines. my biggest engine is a 434" SM/BLK and it has Hilborn stacks on it. The 4.1 toilet bowl is on a 377" SM/BLK. I'm not a fan of James Monroe, because i've known Ron since the mid 80's when i lived i Phx Az. But i'm sure that David/hammer is spot on on the setup for your setup. No David i'm not kising up to you i just have a lot of respect for what you have done and accomplished with the Rons stuff. Enough said.

Zip.

Thanks Zip :)

Like all injection is pretty straight foward, I've struggled in the past and decided enough was enough and learned the hard way. My last engine had the same setup in it for 4 years, a 1000hp motor is 39/80 all day, his 1 pump will be a tricky one to nail on the head and leave it alone.

Kod there is a 0 1/2 rons black pump on ebay. If it didnt cost me 40 cents a minute to talk to you in Canada from my cell, I'd run you through everything on the phone. If it comes down to it, I will still do this either way.

What does it idle at in gear (rpm) with the fuel shutoff all the way in ?

Thanks Hammer. If you PM me your number and when you are available, I can call you.

It idles at about 1000 RPM in gear with the shut off all the way in. In park, it idles at about 1600 RPM.

I drained the oil out of the engine today and recovered 14 quarts. 7 quarts of oil and about 7 quarts of methanol. The vacuum breater tank was full of emulsified oil. Thick as molassas. There is no doubt the injection system is very rich.
I changed oil and filter and cleaned everything up today. I will preheat the oil and change to an 80 pill and 39 nozzles in the AM. I will warm it up with the shut off part way out. Then pull a valve cover and check for milking.

[hammertime]

Be sure not to run it much if it is that rich again, if it is leave the 38 in and go to a 80 to 90 pill. Make sure you do not leave that fuel shut off at full fuel until you get ready to start you burnout.

[kod99]

Here is the next installment in the milky oil saga:

- Put new oil in engine
- Installed #80 pill and left #38 nozzles in engine
- Heated oil pan to 110 degrees with pan heater
- Fired engine with fuel shut off all the way in
- Idling at 1500 RPM for 2 minutes. Engine vacuum at 13 inches
- Pulled fuel shut off out 1" and idle increased to 2200 RPM
- Engine vacuum still at 13 inches
- Engine temp increased to 150 degrees and engine vacuum dropped to 3 inches in 5 minutes
- Vacuum breather can emmitting steam / smoke like a '64 Chev with bad valve seals
- Chrome Dynatech headers on left engine bank turned beautiful shades of blue and yellow
- @#$%&*!!!
- The headers on the right engine bank are still chrome
- Shut engine down and pull valve cover
- No milky oil in heads

Questions:

Why did the vacuum drop so much when the engine heated up?
Why did only one side get so much heat as to blue the headers?
What's with so much alcohol steam coming out of the vacuum pump breather?
Does a 598 BBC make a good boat anchor?

[hammertime]

Here is the next installment in the milky oil saga:

- Put new oil in engine
- Installed #80 pill and left #38 nozzles in engine
- Heated oil pan to 110 degrees with pan heater
- Fired engine with fuel shut off all the way in
- Idling at 1500 RPM for 2 minutes. Engine vacuum at 13 inches
- Pulled fuel shut off out 1" and idle increased to 2200 RPM
- Engine vacuum still at 13 inches
- Engine temp increased to 150 degrees and engine vacuum dropped to 3 inches in 5 minutes
- Vacuum breather can emmitting steam / smoke like a '64 Chev with bad valve seals
- Chrome Dynatech headers on left engine bank turned beautiful shades of blue and yellow
- @#$%&*!!!
- The headers on the right engine bank are still chrome
- Shut engine down and pull valve cover
- No milky oil in heads

Questions:

Why did the vacuum drop so much when the engine heated up?
Why did only one side get so much heat as to blue the headers?
What's with so much alcohol steam coming out of the vacuum pump breather?
Does a 598 BBC make a good boat anchor?

Did better but, I can not stress enough about the fuel shut off needing to be fully in ONLY on the race track. Once it starts pull that bad boy out.

Vacuum dropping when when its warm, would tell me something isnt sealed internally when it warms up, do a warm leak down test and make sure the rings arent the issue ?

One side of the header is blue, possibly make sure none of the nozzels are plugged on either side, blue chrome headers can be cause from to lean or to rich (fuel burning in the header) .. I tossed the chromes years ago now, look on the internet for stuff called "blue out" buy a few things of it, and get ready for a lot of elbow work.

Steam out of the vacuum canister is normal to a point, how much is a lot ? like a train or like a exhaust on a cold day ?

I've never been a fan of a 598 tall deck motor, they never seem to run worth a darn. That being said, www.apdracing.com is building me a new 598 short deck motor right now and should be done in a few weeks, looking for north of 1050hp.

[kod99]

Here is the next installment in the milky oil saga:

- Put new oil in engine
- Installed #80 pill and left #38 nozzles in engine
- Heated oil pan to 110 degrees with pan heater
- Fired engine with fuel shut off all the way in
- Idling at 1500 RPM for 2 minutes. Engine vacuum at 13 inches
- Pulled fuel shut off out 1" and idle increased to 2200 RPM
- Engine vacuum still at 13 inches
- Engine temp increased to 150 degrees and engine vacuum dropped to 3 inches in 5 minutes
- Vacuum breather can emmitting steam / smoke like a '64 Chev with bad valve seals
- Chrome Dynatech headers on left engine bank turned beautiful shades of blue and yellow
- @#$%&*!!!
- The headers on the right engine bank are still chrome
- Shut engine down and pull valve cover
- No milky oil in heads

Questions:

Why did the vacuum drop so much when the engine heated up?
Why did only one side get so much heat as to blue the headers?
What's with so much alcohol steam coming out of the vacuum pump breather?
Does a 598 BBC make a good boat anchor?

Did better but, I can not stress enough about the fuel shut off needing to be fully in ONLY on the race track. Once it starts pull that bad boy out.

Vacuum dropping when when its warm, would tell me something isnt sealed internally when it warms up, do a warm leak down test and make sure the rings arent the issue ?

One side of the header is blue, possibly make sure none of the nozzels are plugged on either side, blue chrome headers can be cause from to lean or to rich (fuel burning in the header) .. I tossed the chromes years ago now, look on the internet for stuff called "blue out" buy a few things of it, and get ready for a lot of elbow work.

Steam out of the vacuum canister is normal to a point, how much is a lot ? like a train or like a exhaust on a cold day ?

I've never been a fan of a 598 tall deck motor, they never seem to run worth a darn. That being said, www.apdracing.com is building me a new 598 short deck motor right now and should be done in a few weeks, looking for north of 1050hp.

Thanks Hammer.

I am going to do a cold leakdown test, then heat it up and do a hot leakdown test.
The fact that I had nearly 2 gallons of methanol in the oil pan and none out of the exhaust, even when it was cold, indicates to me that there must be some huge bypass going on inside the engine.
The steam coming from the breather is like a train, and the car was inside a warm shop when I fired it up.
I post the results.

[ccperf721p]

Right side running hotter than left could be caused by a number of things.

Nozzles are not designed or tested for low pressure flow, so it may even drop a couple of nozzles with the handled pulled out. Butterfly settings and intake reversion can also play a part. The nozzles are aerated, so they pull in air even if they aren't dropping the proper amount of fuel.

There is no exact setting for the butterflies and barrel valve, it varies with each combination. It's a little back and forth game, find the butterfly opening that gives the correct idle speed, then find the correct barrel valve setting that gives the proper amount of fuel at idle so it goes up on the converter clean. I set up at 2 flats rich from a clean hit on the transbrake, which happens to be 22%. .002 on the butterflies, idle out of gear at 1150, 1000 in gear.

The drop in vacuum could easily be caused by the oil being stripped from the vanes in the pump. I have found it best to drop a couple of ounces of oil in the pump before I fire the car for the first time that day.

Try not pulling the handle out so much.

[kod99]

Right side running hotter than left could be caused by a number of things.

Nozzles are not designed or tested for low pressure flow, so it may even drop a couple of nozzles with the handled pulled out. Butterfly settings and intake reversion can also play a part. The nozzles are aerated, so they pull in air even if they aren't dropping the proper amount of fuel.

There is no exact setting for the butterflies and barrel valve, it varies with each combination. It's a little back and forth game, find the butterfly opening that gives the correct idle speed, then find the correct barrel valve setting that gives the proper amount of fuel at idle so it goes up on the converter clean. I set up at 2 flats rich from a clean hit on the transbrake, which happens to be 22%. .002 on the butterflies, idle out of gear at 1150, 1000 in gear.

The drop in vacuum could easily be caused by the oil being stripped from the vanes in the pump. I have found it best to drop a couple of ounces of oil in the pump before I fire the car for the first time that day.

Try not pulling the handle out so much.

Thanks ccperf.

I will double and triple check everything you mentioned.
I'll check the idle and the barrel valve leakdown and flush and lubricate the vacuum pump. Although the pump was working, because it was forcing steam out of the breather vent...like a steam engine.

I would think at 60 psi idling fuel pressure, all nozzles would be getting fuel.
I'm running an Edelbrock Sr intake.

And i will not lean it as much as I did. I'm sure I over did it. Hence the header discoloration.

[ccperf721p]

If I remember correctly, Ron's barrel valves do not bypass fuel to the return line with the shutoff, it merely closes off the supply from the pump. If this is the case and you are taking your reading from the pump side it will not show nozzle pressure. Also you will get a big spike on the gauge when you lift off the throttle.

About the only time I use fuel pressure to reference anything is after the initial tuning is done I will throw a gauge on the nozzle side to get an idea of what pressure to start with on the high speed.

Most of injection tuning is by feel and time slips, you have to have a place to start so you use the basic measurements, barrel valve setting etc etc to get it running.

[zipper06]

If I remember correctly, Ron's barrel valves do not bypass fuel to the return line with the shutoff, it merely closes off the supply from the pump. If this is the case and you are taking your reading from the pump side it will not show nozzle pressure. Also you will get a big spike on the gauge when you lift off the throttle.

About the only time I use fuel pressure to reference anything is after the initial tuning is done I will throw a gauge on the nozzle side to get an idea of what pressure to start with on the high speed.

Most of injection tuning is by feel and time slips, you have to have a place to start so you use the basic measurements, barrel valve setting etc etc to get it running.

I agree with this,depending on which barrel Valve you have, it would have an idle bypass?check valve spring of about 15 lbs, which is closed off as soon as the throttle is cracked open about 15/20%. As hammer said the blue header could be either a lean or fuel burning in the header. I never have that problem :) because i ddon't use crome headers (sorry just being funny) I think the best thing would be to get it too the track and try some of the changes you have made. It's really hard to melt an engine down on a normally asperated engine, they either run good or they sputter. i'm not talking about a blown alcohol engine, because you can melt one down in a heartbeat ( I've done it ) Another thing comes to mind, most people run a spacer plate on the manifold this permotes better distribution in the manifold. I don't know if you are running one or not.

JMO

Zip.

[kod99]

If I remember correctly, Ron's barrel valves do not bypass fuel to the return line with the shutoff, it merely closes off the supply from the pump. If this is the case and you are taking your reading from the pump side it will not show nozzle pressure. Also you will get a big spike on the gauge when you lift off the throttle.

About the only time I use fuel pressure to reference anything is after the initial tuning is done I will throw a gauge on the nozzle side to get an idea of what pressure to start with on the high speed.

Most of injection tuning is by feel and time slips, you have to have a place to start so you use the basic measurements, barrel valve setting etc etc to get it running.

I agree with this,depending on which barrel Valve you have, it would have an idle bypass?check valve spring of about 15 lbs, which is closed off as soon as the throttle is cracked open about 15/20%. As hammer said the blue header could be either a lean or fuel burning in the header. I never have that problem :) because i ddon't use crome headers (sorry just being funny) I think the best thing would be to get it too the track and try some of the changes you have made. It's really hard to melt an engine down on a normally asperated engine, they either run good or they sputter. i'm not talking about a blown alcohol engine, because you can melt one down in a heartbeat ( I've done it ) Another thing comes to mind, most people run a spacer plate on the manifold this permotes better distribution in the manifold. I don't know if you are running one or not.

JMO

Zip.

Thanks for the advice zipper!
I have the gray barrel valve, no idle bypass and I have a 1" spacer under the Terminator.
I agree, I need to get it to the track. I would like to have the setup somewhat close before I go, so I don't have problems and spend the day wrenching instead of running.

[hammertime]

Pulling the shut off out, did not blue your headers, being to rich blued your headers, when its lean they get gold. You need to find that fine line with the shutoff, keep it in all the way will indeed blue the headers and milk the oil and you'll be back to the same spot your at.

[kod99]

Pulling the shut off out, did not blue your headers, being to rich blued your headers, when its lean they get gold. You need to find that fine line with the shutoff, keep it in all the way will indeed blue the headers and milk the oil and you'll be back to the same spot your at.

The engine was so rich, when I made the run at the track, that I gained nearly 2 gallons of methanol in the oil pan and the headers didn't dis-color at all.
When I changed from a #45 to a #80 pill and fired it in the shop, leaned out with the fuel shut off, the headers discolored.

[zipper06]

Pulling the shut off out, did not blue your headers, being to rich blued your headers, when its lean they get gold. You need to find that fine line with the shutoff, keep it in all the way will indeed blue the headers and milk the oil and you'll be back to the same spot your at.

The engine was so rich, when I made the run at the track, that I gained nearly 2 gallons of methanol in the oil pan and the headers didn't dis-color at all.
When I changed from a #45 to a #80 pill and fired it in the shop, leaned out with the fuel shut off, the headers discolored.

Apples and oranges, that was on a run. not idling.

It sounds like we are giving you wrong advice, but trust me, and i've been running injection for over 40 yrs. and Hammer/David in my opinion has one of the best running Rons systems in the country. I just wish i could afford his engine. I know it sounds like it won't be right, but when the smoke clears you will be able to look back at everything that has been said, and say dogone this injection is so simple, it's easier than tripping over a log. Actually i've been running injection and blown systems since 1964, and still do today.

Zip.

[ccperf721p]

Handle pulled out until the engine idles at 2200 RPM and it's too rich. OK...

[hammertime]

Chrome headers ... turn blue when rich ... gold when lean just how it is, of course I've only dealt with chrome headers for 8 years :shock:

Apparently I dont know anything about injection so I am done helping at this point ... Kod if you contiune to have issues email or call Monroe he'll also steer you into the correct direction, you combo is not much unlike 100's of bigger BBC motor around the country .. there is a reason we all end up close to the same tune-up.

Thanks Zip :) Your right my combo just flat works and copies time slips to the ten thousands for a reason. :wink: I am in the middle on doing a new motor, this one should be a bad dude when its done.

[kod99]

Chrome headers ... turn blue when rich ... gold when lean just how it is, of course I've only dealt with chrome headers for 8 years :shock:

Apparently I dont know anything about injection so I am done helping at this point ... Kod if you contiune to have issues email or call Monroe he'll also steer you into the correct direction, you combo is not much unlike 100's of bigger BBC motor around the country .. there is a reason we all end up close to the same tune-up.

Thanks Zip :) Your right my combo just flat works and copies time slips to the ten thousands for a reason. :wink: I am in the middle on doing a new motor, this one should be a bad dude when its done.

David,
I didn't mean to insult your expertise. I was just confused why the headers didn't blue when the engine was rich at the track. I was only stating what I saw and trying to make sense of it.
I appreciate all the help I get on here, including yours, and I NEVER said you didn't know anything about injection.

[kod99]

I did a leakdown test. The engine was cold and no oil was put into the cylinders before the test. Here are the results:

#1 : 9%
#2 : 15%
#3 : 9%
#4 : 21%
#5 : 6%
#6 : 16%
#7 : 8%
#8 : 8%

The test was conducted using 100 psi and was repeated twice with pretty much the same results.

I plan on warming the engine up and repeating the leakdown test on warm engine.

[zipper06]

That's a lot of difference from the left bank to the right. Do you have file fit rings or Z gaps. If they are file fit it will decrease on the leak down when warm, but it's the big difference that concerns me. Maybe 6 to 8% with file fit COLD, should be the limit, unless you're running a blown/ supercharged engine.

JMO

Zip.

[kod99]

That's a lot of difference from the left bank to the right. Do you have file fit rings or Z gaps. If they are file fit it will decrease on the leak down when warm, but it's the big difference that concerns me. Maybe 6 to 8% with file fit COLD, should be the limit, unless you're running a blown/ supercharged engine.

JMO

Zip.

The rings are file fit and the engine is natural aspirated.
It was the bank with the least leakdown that blued the headers. Could the two facts be connected?
I have a feeling that this new engine is going to have to be opened up again. Now I have to find a good BBC guy in my area. Crap!!

[zipper06]

Before you pull it down do a cold compression check, then a hot compression check, it could be a lot of factors, too much piston to wall clearance, rings not properly file fit. I'm thinking that the rings may be wiped out and possible cylinders scored from way too rich. A well sealed cylinder will definately run hotter than a cylinder with a lot of blow by.

JMO

Zip.

[kod99]

Before you pull it down do a cold compression check, then a hot compression check, it could be a lot of factors, too much piston to wall clearance, rings not properly file fit. I'm thinking that the rings may be wiped out and possible cylinders scored from way too rich. A well sealed cylinder will definately run hotter than a cylinder with a lot of blow by.

JMO

Zip.

Thanks Zipper.
I will run another cold test and a couple of hot ones tomorrow and post the results. I am concerned that the overly rich conditins may have washed oil off the cylinder walls and lead to some scoring or ring damage.
When the engine was fresh and run on the dyno, without the vacuum pump, there seemed to be a lot of pressure in the crankcase. I had leaks from the pan gasket, rear seal and intake gaskets.
Your statement about the tighter cylinders running hotter makes a lot of sense.
BTW, all cylinders seemed to be leaking to the crankcase only. I couldn't detect any intake, exhaust or head gasket leaks.

[kod99]

Hot leakdown test was even worse. Pulled engine and sent it the engine builder to be checked out.

[zipper06]

Hot leakdown test was even worse. Pulled engine and sent it the engine builder to be checked out.

Smart move, before you ran it again.

JMO

Zip.

[kod99]

Hot leakdown test was even worse. Pulled engine and sent it the engine builder to be checked out.

Smart move, before you ran it again.

JMO

Zip.

I do learn....it just takes me a while.
I'm gonna put on a 0 1/2 pump, 80 pill and 39 nozzles and tune from there.

[hammertime]

Hot leakdown test was even worse. Pulled engine and sent it the engine builder to be checked out.

Smart move, before you ran it again.

JMO

Zip.

I do learn....it just takes me a while.
I'm gonna put on a 0 1/2 pump, 80 pill and 39 nozzles and tune from there.

:wink:

[bbchevy]

Hot leakdown test was even worse. Pulled engine and sent it the engine builder to be checked out.

Smart move, before you ran it again.

JMO

Zip.

I do learn....it just takes me a while.
I'm gonna put on a 0 1/2 pump, 80 pill and 39 nozzles and tune from there.
I Can HOOK you up with ALL of those PARTS,INCLUDING a Nice T-2 Terminator and a Primer +.Just Posted the Whole System,in the Classifieds.
Hope things are NOT to bad,and maybe a Finish Hone and a set of Rings.....?
Later
G

[kod99]

Hot leakdown test was even worse. Pulled engine and sent it the engine builder to be checked out.

Smart move, before you ran it again.

JMO

Zip.

I do learn....it just takes me a while.
I'm gonna put on a 0 1/2 pump, 80 pill and 39 nozzles and tune from there.
I Can HOOK you up with ALL of those PARTS,INCLUDING a Nice T-2 Terminator and a Primer +.Just Posted the Whole System,in the Classifieds.
Hope things are NOT to bad,and maybe a Finish Hone and a set of Rings.....?
Later
G

Thanks bbchevy. I have everything I need, I just need to start with the correct settings.

[fast75vega]

i was told of a good way to stop milky oil and help get temp up :wink:


an old timer told use to run a vac vent line from the manifold in side the car with a valve on it .... this way when you open it.... it sucks air to lean it out and will get the temp up as well. he also said to get the temp up to 200 deg. before shutting the car down :)

[kod99]

The engine is apart.
Thankfully, no big damage. The ring gap was a bit big on some cylinders. Gonna replace the bearings, because they were a little washed from the excess alcohol, and install some gapless rings.

[kod99]

i was told of a good way to stop milky oil and help get temp up :wink:


an old timer told use to run a vac vent line from the manifold in side the car with a valve on it .... this way when you open it.... it sucks air to lean it out and will get the temp up as well. he also said to get the temp up to 200 deg. before shutting the car down :)

Thanks for the info fast.
I have a lean out valve on the car and I used it when the engine had a carb on it. With the injection, I just pull out the fuel shut of until the engine is lean.

[hammertime]

Look into rings from Wiseco or JE, low tension, there is hp in that area.


Did they say what the ring gap was ?

[kod99]

Look into rings from Wiseco or JE, low tension, there is hp in that area.


Did they say what the ring gap was ?

The end gap was 28 top ring and 26 second ring.
I'm gonna go to gapless top rings. Changing to a Sniper manifold at the same time. It will be a couple of weeks yet.

[hammertime]

Look into rings from Wiseco or JE, low tension, there is hp in that area.


Did they say what the ring gap was ?

The end gap was 28 top ring and 26 second ring.
I'm gonna go to gapless top rings. Changing to a Sniper manifold at the same time. It will be a couple of weeks yet.

with injection the intake is a waste but if you every do a carb again there is a gain there.

[kod99]

Look into rings from Wiseco or JE, low tension, there is hp in that area.


Did they say what the ring gap was ?

The end gap was 28 top ring and 26 second ring.
I'm gonna go to gapless top rings. Changing to a Sniper manifold at the same time. It will be a couple of weeks yet.

with injection the intake is a waste but if you every do a carb again there is a gain there.

David,
Which intake manifold are you running with your injection system?

[hammertime]

Look into rings from Wiseco or JE, low tension, there is hp in that area.


Did they say what the ring gap was ?

The end gap was 28 top ring and 26 second ring.
I'm gonna go to gapless top rings. Changing to a Sniper manifold at the same time. It will be a couple of weeks yet.

with injection the intake is a waste but if you every do a carb again there is a gain there.

David,
Which intake manifold are you running with your injection system?

I have the Sniper on it for carb purposes and a 454R sitting here for it also.

[kod99]

Look into rings from Wiseco or JE, low tension, there is hp in that area.


Did they say what the ring gap was ?

The end gap was 28 top ring and 26 second ring.
I'm gonna go to gapless top rings. Changing to a Sniper manifold at the same time. It will be a couple of weeks yet.

with injection the intake is a waste but if you every do a carb again there is a gain there.

David,
Which intake manifold are you running with your injection system?

I have the Sniper on it for carb purposes and a 454R sitting here for it also.

I saw some impressive claims of HP gains with the Sniper and assumed they were using a carb for the testing. I wondered if it did the same with injection. Now I know. Thanks, David.

[hammertime]

Look into rings from Wiseco or JE, low tension, there is hp in that area.


Did they say what the ring gap was ?

The end gap was 28 top ring and 26 second ring.
I'm gonna go to gapless top rings. Changing to a Sniper manifold at the same time. It will be a couple of weeks yet.

with injection the intake is a waste but if you every do a carb again there is a gain there.

David,
Which intake manifold are you running with your injection system?

I have the Sniper on it for carb purposes and a 454R sitting here for it also.

I saw some impressive claims of HP gains with the Sniper and assumed they were using a carb for the testing. I wondered if it did the same with injection. Now I know. Thanks, David.

They are a great intake with a carb and a good choice for anything but with injection there isnt any gains over any other decent brand intake.

Let us know how everything turns out when they redyno it.

[kod99]

Look into rings from Wiseco or JE, low tension, there is hp in that area.


Did they say what the ring gap was ?

The end gap was 28 top ring and 26 second ring.
I'm gonna go to gapless top rings. Changing to a Sniper manifold at the same time. It will be a couple of weeks yet.

with injection the intake is a waste but if you every do a carb again there is a gain there.

David,
Which intake manifold are you running with your injection system?

I have the Sniper on it for carb purposes and a 454R sitting here for it also.

I saw some impressive claims of HP gains with the Sniper and assumed they were using a carb for the testing. I wondered if it did the same with injection. Now I know. Thanks, David.

They are a great intake with a carb and a good choice for anything but with injection there isnt any gains over any other decent brand intake.

Let us know how everything turns out when they redyno it.

Ok. The engine is done and I put the Sniper manifold on it. I took it to the dyno (Super-flo 902) on Friday and made 23 pulls on it. Made 3 pulls with a 1150 Holley Dominator carb on C16 first to seat the rings. Then I installed the Ron's terminator and switched to alcohol.

On alcohol, the engine would nose over on the horsepower curve at about 6000 to 6300 RPM.

The final configurations that worked, and didn't nose, although the horsepower curves did flatten out, over were:

39 nozzles - 82 pill - 31 degrees advanced timing
922 HP at 6400 RPM
829 ft# torque at 5200 RPM

41 nozzles - 88 pill - 33 degrees advanced timing
925 HP at 6400 RPM
833 ft# torque at 5200 RPM

Fuel pressure was 68 - 70 psi. I was using a 1/2 Enderle belt drive pump. I had it tested and it fowed at 5.5 GPM.

I did try one hit with the high speed bypass installed and set to 63 psi, but it didn't seem to help stop the nosing over.

The maximum RPM the engine would reach was 6500. I can't figure out why. Dirty air in the dyno room? The exhaust evac system was not sealed that well. The headers were dumping into 6" flex hoses which were exhausted, by a fan, to the outside of the building.

The vacuum pump could not keep up with the crankcase pressure. As the RPM came up, the crankcase would go from 12" of vacuum to 22 psi of pressure. I blew a hole in both the intake and pan gaskets (The Right Stuff). The richer the engine was, the higher the crankcase pressure. I am going to change the drive pump pulley to spin the vacuum pump at 75% instead of 50% of the crank. I hope this helps the crankcase pressure problem.

Another oddity is that with the 1150 carb on race gas, the air flow was 1148 cfm at 6500 RPM. With the 2100 cfm Terminator on alcohol, the airflow was only 1074 cfm at 6500 RPM.

I drained the oil after the dyno run and it wasn't very milky at all.

An input would be appreciated.

[ccperf721p]

The airflow drop on methanol is caused by the volume of fuel in the runner and is normal.

Did you get any air/fuel ratio data or exhaust temps?

Do you have a pill in the high speed? What size?

[zipper06]

I'll weigh in at the risk of being critised. You haven't stated (that i have read) what size headers you have, IMO you have to have atleast 2 1/4" to 2 3/8" headers on an engine that size and 4" to 4.5" collector. That would cause the 6500 RPM limit also the evac system on the dyno could effect the vacuum reading at 6500. Ofcouse the dyno does not show what is the real effects at the track. There's 3 or 4 things that could cause it to not run above 6500 RPM. "1" valve springs with the size valves you are running needs to have well over 250lbs. I run 300LBS on 2.140 Titatium on a 434" motor, and i'm sure your's are 2.250 or bigger. I don't know what size cam you have but anything over .750 it should run 7500 RPM's with ease. What concerns me most is that the carb flowed more intake cfm than the Injection. That to me tells me that the exhaust couldn't get out. INO if it can't get out (headers) it can't flow IE: equals high oil pan pressure. A vacuum pump should run 18 to 20 inches of vacuum, anything more that that will dry up the cylinder walls and cause schuffing of the cylinder walls. At no time should it turn to pressure in the oil pan. Again the dyno evac system is not the same as a real run down the track.

These are just my opinion based on previous experience and by no means should it be taken as the cure to your problems.



Zip.

[kod99]

The airflow drop on methanol is caused by the volume of fuel in the runner and is normal.

Did you get any air/fuel ratio data or exhaust temps?

Do you have a pill in the high speed? What size?

No air/fuel ratio data.
The exhaust temp was about 1150 - 1200 on the good passes.

I had a 70 pill in the high speed by-pass and set it to full release at 65 psi. The problem was it starts opening at about 40 psi.

[kod99]

I'll weigh in at the risk of being critised. You haven't stated (that i have read) what size headers you have, IMO you have to have atleast 2 1/4" to 2 3/8" headers on an engine that size and 4" to 4.5" collector. That would cause the 6500 RPM limit also the evac system on the dyno could effect the vacuum reading at 6500. Ofcouse the dyno does not show what is the real effects at the track. There's 3 or 4 things that could cause it to not run above 6500 RPM. "1" valve springs with the size valves you are running needs to have well over 250lbs. I run 300LBS on 2.140 Titatium on a 434" motor, and i'm sure your's are 2.250 or bigger. I don't know what size cam you have but anything over .750 it should run 7500 RPM's with ease. What concerns me most is that the carb flowed more intake cfm than the Injection. That to me tells me that the exhaust couldn't get out. INO if it can't get out (headers) it can't flow IE: equals high oil pan pressure. A vacuum pump should run 18 to 20 inches of vacuum, anything more that that will dry up the cylinder walls and cause schuffing of the cylinder walls. At no time should it turn to pressure in the oil pan. Again the dyno evac system is not the same as a real run down the track.

These are just my opinion based on previous experience and by no means should it be taken as the cure to your problems.



Zip.

You won't get any criticism from me zipper. I appreciate all the info anyone gives me.

I run 2 1/4" to 2 3/8" stepped Dynatech down-swept headers with 4" collectors. Dart Pro2 CNC heads with 2.33 intake and 1.88 exhaust valves. The spring pressures are 300 pounds on seat and 850 pounds open. It has a Comp Cams custom grind cam with intake lift of 0.846 and exhaust lift of 0.826.

[ccperf721p]

Did the engine go past 6500 with the carb on it?

Use cracking pressure as the base for your high speed.

[zipper06]

X2--Use cracking pressure as the base for your high speed.

The exhaust temp. sounds pretty close

After looking at this with a clear head. Get rid of the pressure in the oil pan and the RPM's will come. It's like dynamics, EX: lock your fingers together and pull with either arm, resisting with the other. The stronger arm will win. Same thing with you engine, the top side wins but not without resistence. I don't know the vacuum system you have but if it started out with 12 inches vacuum and ended up at 20/25 lbs. pressure in the pan before it blew the intake gasket, there are some serious issues with the collection system, being plugged or a breather problem plugging up or filling up. i sure with you would have tried header evac system on the dyno. I also think you have another 50 HP once you get rid of pressure in the oil pan, and as many RPM's as you want to run.

JMO.



Zip.

[kod99]

X2--Use cracking pressure as the base for your high speed.

The exhaust temp. sounds pretty close

After looking at this with a clear head. Get rid of the pressure in the oil pan and the RPM's will come. It's like dynamics, EX: lock your fingers together and pull with either arm, resisting with the other. The stronger arm will win. Same thing with you engine, the top side wins but not without resistence. I don't know the vacuum system you have but if it started out with 12 inches vacuum and ended up at 20/25 lbs. pressure in the pan before it blew the intake gasket, there are some serious issues with the collection system, being plugged or a breather problem plugging up or filling up. i sure with you would have tried header evac system on the dyno. I also think you have another 50 HP once you get rid of pressure in the oil pan, and as many RPM's as you want to run.

JMO.



Zip.

I used to run a header evac system and I just put the vacuum pump on the engine this year. Shouldn't the vacuum pump draw more air out of the crankcase than the evac system?
When I get to the track, I will disconnect the vac pump and hook the evac back up and see what happens.
Thanks for the input zipper.

[kod99]

Did the engine go past 6500 with the carb on it?

Use cracking pressure as the base for your high speed.

The three pulls I made with the carb and gas were not full hits. Just went to 6000 RPM.

[shawnp]

Just out of curiousity, did you run the valves to check that they were set properly?

[kod99]

Just out of curiousity, did you run the valves to check that they were set properly?

After running the three passes on gas, with the carb, the valve lash was adjusted hot.
0.024 on both the intake and exhaust, as per the cam card from Comp.

[hammertime]

Whats the cam specs besides lift ? and where did the actually install it at ?


For it to have that much crank case pressure you'd have to have slim to no vacuum. They are is major issues there, and a good amount of power there also.

[kod99]

Whats the cam specs besides lift ? and where did the actually install it at ?


For it to have that much crank case pressure you'd have to have slim to no vacuum. They are is major issues there, and a good amount of power there also.

If I could figure out how to insert a pdf file in my post, I could post the blueprinting specs and dyno runs.

[hammertime]

Whats the cam specs besides lift ? and where did the actually install it at ?


For it to have that much crank case pressure you'd have to have slim to no vacuum. They are is major issues there, and a good amount of power there also.

If I could figure out how to insert a pdf file in my post, I could post the blueprinting specs and dyno runs.

photobucket.com

[kod99]

Whats the cam specs besides lift ? and where did the actually install it at ?


For it to have that much crank case pressure you'd have to have slim to no vacuum. They are is major issues there, and a good amount of power there also.

If I could figure out how to insert a pdf file in my post, I could post the blueprinting specs and dyno runs.

photobucket.com

Here goes:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb149/reagannelson/598%20Dyno%20Sheets/ALR_598_BBC_Blueprint_Sheet1.jpg

[kod99]

Another interesting fact is that, on the first three dyno pulls on race gas, the crankcase btween 8 and 10 inches of vacuum.
It was only when I switched to alcohol that I started to build crankcase pressure. At times, as much as 29 psi.

[hammertime]

Says its not there, did u delete it ?

I assume you havent raced it yet ?

[kod99]

Says its not there, did u delete it ?

I assume you havent raced it yet ?

Sorry. I messed up and deleted it.
First runs on the new engine tomorrow.
Here it is again:

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb149/reagannelson/ARL%20598%20BBC%20Dyno%20Sheets/ALR_598_BBC_Blueprint_Sheet1.jpg

[kod99]

Here is a link to the dyno pulls:
The manifold pressure is actually the crankcase pressure.
The file name indicates the run number. The forst three runs were on gas, the remainder on alcohol.

http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb149/reagannelson/ARL%20598%20BBC%20Dyno%20Sheets/

[hammertime]

Boost # I assume is the vacuum ?

Why only to 6500rpms on dyno? Notice it falls off on a few them up high.

Did it blue the headers before or after the dyno ?

[kod99]

Boost # I assume is the vacuum ?

Why only to 6500rpms on dyno? Notice it falls off on a few them up high.

Did it blue the headers before or after the dyno ?

I will double check on the Boost # but I assumed it was manifold pressure.

6500 RPM was the best it would do on the dyno pulls.

The headers were blue before the dyno runs. There didn't seem to be any change in color during the dyno session.

Heading to the track today. Wondering whether to shift on time or RPM??

[hammertime]

Boost # I assume is the vacuum ?

Why only to 6500rpms on dyno? Notice it falls off on a few them up high.

Did it blue the headers before or after the dyno ?

I will double check on the Boost # but I assumed it was manifold pressure.

6500 RPM was the best it would do on the dyno pulls.

The headers were blue before the dyno runs. There didn't seem to be any change in color during the dyno session.

Heading to the track today. Wondering whether to shift on time or RPM??

I can clearly see it didnt care for more fuel on injection up high, that engine should have no issue at 7400. Something else is holding it back on the dyno, possibly on the track. I will be waiting for the on track #'s, either that dyno is on the low side or it has something wrong somewhere.

[kod99]

Boost # I assume is the vacuum ?

Why only to 6500rpms on dyno? Notice it falls off on a few them up high.

Did it blue the headers before or after the dyno ?

I will double check on the Boost # but I assumed it was manifold pressure.

6500 RPM was the best it would do on the dyno pulls.

The headers were blue before the dyno runs. There didn't seem to be any change in color during the dyno session.

Heading to the track today. Wondering whether to shift on time or RPM??

I can clearly see it didnt care for more fuel on injection up high, that engine should have no issue at 7400. Something else is holding it back on the dyno, possibly on the track. I will be waiting for the on track #'s, either that dyno is on the low side or it has something wrong somewhere.

Do you shift on time or RPM, David?

[hammertime]

Always on time, feel its a bit more consistent that way

If you know the time # to start at its great, if not start with rpm until you know the time #. I've seen some be at 1.65 and some be at 2.65, converter, engine, shifters are all different.

[kod99]

Always on time, feel its a bit more consistent that way

If you know the time # to start at its great, if not start with rpm until you know the time #. I've seen some be at 1.65 and some be at 2.65, converter, engine, shifters are all different.

Thanks David.
I was runing it at 2 seconds with the old motor and it was working fine. I will start from there and experiment a bit today.

[hammertime]

Always on time, feel its a bit more consistent that way

If you know the time # to start at its great, if not start with rpm until you know the time #. I've seen some be at 1.65 and some be at 2.65, converter, engine, shifters are all different.

Thanks David.
I was runing it at 2 seconds with the old motor and it was working fine. I will start from there and experiment a bit today.

Mine is 1.75 @ 7100 and 1.95 at 7300, good luck looking foward to seeing the results.

[hammertime]

Well what did it do ?

[kod99]

To continue my saga:

First pass:
8.19 @ 161 mph - Max RPM: 6600

Nozzles: 41
Main pill: 90

Car ran well but sprayed oil out of the vacuum pump breather again. Estimate about a quart sprayed.

Disconnected vacuum pump and hooked up header evac system.
Changed oil. No milking of oil - no methanol in oil. Drained Vacuum breather tank. It was full.

Pass 2:
8.12 @ 163 mph - Max RPM: 6900

Nozzles: 41
Main pill: 90

Car ran better. Oil film inside of header collectors after run.
Changed main pill to 88.

Pass 3:
8.02 @ 165 mph - Max RPM: 7050
Nozzles: 41
Main pill: 88

Car ran even better. Very slight oil film inside of header collectors after run. Temp after run: 220.

Traction was a problem with 60 foot times around 1.19.

I think I may have the answer for the oil spray. Due to space restrictions, I had to mount the vacuum pump breather can above the engine and directly in the airflow. Could it be that the air rushing through the breather filter is creating a vacuum and pulling the oil out?
Should I build a shroud to put in front of the breather filter? Would that help?
On the dyno, very little oil was puked out of the exhaust hose from the vacuum pump. Maybe 2 tablespoons in 23 hits.
I kept the engine leaned out until I was ready to roll into the burnout box, then went full rich until the return road.

One footnote:
I pulled the chute for the first time. Everything worked great and I saved a lot of brakes. I will be pulling it regularly from now on.

[hammertime]

We run the head mount on a few cars for the vaccum canister so I do not think that is a issue, but worth a try. You need a in car vacuum gauge to see whats its doing down track. I havent drained my vacuum canister in over a month and 75 runs.

There is no reason for you to run a 41 nozzel IMO, dynos always like more fuel, drop that to a 40 and I'd be shocked if it didnt run faster again.
I am same CI with more power and have no where near that much fuel, mine would be a slug with that much fuel.

Did I read right your water temp was 220 degrees after a run ?

Your gaining ground but from the dyno #'s I seen I thought it'd be a 7.70s player.

[kod99]

We run the head mount on a few cars for the vaccum canister so I do not think that is a issue, but worth a try. You need a in car vacuum gauge to see whats its doing down track. I havent drained my vacuum canister in over a month and 75 runs.

There is no reason for you to run a 41 nozzel IMO, dynos always like more fuel, drop that to a 40 and I'd be shocked if it didnt run faster again.
I am same CI with more power and have no where near that much fuel, mine would be a slug with that much fuel.

Did I read right your water temp was 220 degrees after a run ?

Your gaining ground but from the dyno #'s I seen I thought it'd be a 7.70s player.

I don't have any 40 nozzles. I have 39's and ran them on the dyno with a 82 main pill. It made about the same HP and torque as the 41 nozzles with the 88 main pill.
I will change to that configuration next Sunday.

I just talked to Moroso, and they too are puzzled that the header evac system seems to work better than the vacuum pump. He also didn't think that the catch can being in the airflow was contributing to the oil spray. I just thought that maybe with the high speed air rushing through the filter, there would be a venturi effect.
When the engine was on the dyno, the vacuum pump only spit out a couple of tablespoons of oil in 23 hits. That sounds more like what you get from yours.
I did get much better RPM with the header evac system than I did with the vacuum pump hooked up.

[bbchevy]

BUT,What about that 220*Temp @ the Stripe,...........?>?
With ALL the Fuel you Throwing @ the Motor,where did that Temp come From?Are you Certain,theres NOT Serious Pressure in the Cooling System,......?//?
Later
G :?

[ccperf721p]

You're building a bunch of heat going down the track, it goes faster with a smaller pill in the main. Maybe just maybe it's a bit on the lean side.

[hammertime]

BUT,What about that 220*Temp @ the Stripe,...........?>?
G :?

still wondering the same ?

Only way he needs this much fuel is, there is a vacuum leak, barrel valve is screwed up and not getting full fuel, or the pump is weak.

[kod99]

BUT,What about that 220*Temp @ the Stripe,...........?>?
G :?

still wondering the same ?

Only way he needs this much fuel is, there is a vacuum leak, barrel valve is screwed up and not getting full fuel, or the pump is weak.

I'm thinking the higher temp was due to perhaps over-leaning in the staging lanes and before the burnout box. I wasn't running the water pump or the fan on that run.

I had the Enderle 0-1/2 pump flow tested. It was 5.5 GPM. And the car did pick up between run #2 and run #3 when I changed the pill and put a little more fuel to the engine.

Could my oil spray be because, on decelleration at the stripe, the oil in the top of the head rushes forward to the vacuum pump pick up? Has anyone else encounter this?

I am gonna tear the vac pump down, clean it and check it out. Then hook the vacuum pump inlet hose into the #8 AN breather outlets on the valve covers I use for the header evac system. I will change to the 39 nozzles and an 80 pill and see what happens with the temp and the ET.

[hammertime]

BUT,What about that 220*Temp @ the Stripe,...........?>?
G :?

still wondering the same ?

Only way he needs this much fuel is, there is a vacuum leak, barrel valve is screwed up and not getting full fuel, or the pump is weak.

I'm thinking the higher temp was due to perhaps over-leaning in the staging lanes and before the burnout box. I wasn't running the water pump or the fan on that run.

I had the Enderle 0-1/2 pump flow tested. It was 5.5 GPM. And the car did pick up between run #2 and run #3 when I changed the pill and put a little more fuel to the engine.

Could my oil spray be because, on decelleration at the stripe, the oil in the top of the head rushes forward to the vacuum pump pick up? Has anyone else encounter this?

I am gonna tear the vac pump down, clean it and check it out. Then hook the vacuum pump inlet hose into the #8 AN breather outlets on the valve covers I use for the header evac system. I will change to the 39 nozzles and an 80 pill and see what happens with the temp and the ET.

That explains the warm temps, but you always must run the water pump. Dont want hot spots.

The decelleration should be stopped with the moroso fitting in the valve cover as long as its not just some 12an fitting weleded to the valve cover, but I am sure you went through this and have the right fitting. You know the dirt track guys have a guard on the front of there breather canisters to stop dirt from coming it, possibly you could get a guard like this to stop air. Or stefs breathers suck air from the bottom and is incased.

Did you get a chance to drain the oil sense you've been home and be sure there is the right amount of qts of oil there ?

[kod99]

BUT,What about that 220*Temp @ the Stripe,...........?>?
G :?

still wondering the same ?

Only way he needs this much fuel is, there is a vacuum leak, barrel valve is screwed up and not getting full fuel, or the pump is weak.

I'm thinking the higher temp was due to perhaps over-leaning in the staging lanes and before the burnout box. I wasn't running the water pump or the fan on that run.

I had the Enderle 0-1/2 pump flow tested. It was 5.5 GPM. And the car did pick up between run #2 and run #3 when I changed the pill and put a little more fuel to the engine.

Could my oil spray be because, on decelleration at the stripe, the oil in the top of the head rushes forward to the vacuum pump pick up? Has anyone else encounter this?

I am gonna tear the vac pump down, clean it and check it out. Then hook the vacuum pump inlet hose into the #8 AN breather outlets on the valve covers I use for the header evac system. I will change to the 39 nozzles and an 80 pill and see what happens with the temp and the ET.

That explains the warm temps, but you always must run the water pump. Dont want hot spots.

The decelleration should be stopped with the moroso fitting in the valve cover as long as its not just some 12an fitting weleded to the valve cover, but I am sure you went through this and have the right fitting. You know the dirt track guys have a guard on the front of there breather canisters to stop dirt from coming it, possibly you could get a guard like this to stop air. Or stefs breathers suck air from the bottom and is incased.

Did you get a chance to drain the oil sense you've been home and be sure there is the right amount of qts of oil there ?

I have the correct Moroso fitting. It's the one they recommend with the hree small holes in it. I think that tying the vacuum inlet into the breather caps should stop the blowing oil.
I haven't had a chance to change the oil yet. I will do that on Friday.

[maxpower671]

what engine temp are you entering the burnout box? staging temp? temp at the stripe? why so hot?

[kod99]

what engine temp are you entering the burnout box? staging temp? temp at the stripe? why so hot?

On a normal run, I go into the box about 140 - 150 and am usually 180 - 190 at the stripe. The problem on that run was that I didn't turn on the water pump and fan like I usually do in the staging lanes.
It was a mistake I made because my mind was on the vacuum issue. Just a bit inattentive!

[maxpower671]

ok, 190 sounds a little hot yet...keep giving it more fuel if it mph's better :wink:

[hammertime]

Go into the box at 160 with water pump on and at the trailer at 175. Get me some pics of the suction side of the pump to the cell,when your getting the others. There is a reason it wants all the fuel and its not because it makes power to use it all. Additional fuel may cause more issues internally, this stuffs simple and your combo isn't unlike 100s of other's just like it that require less fuel and run faster. A fuel restriction or sucking air on the suction could cause it to want more then needed.

Your nozzels, do you have brass filters or foam style? And do you have the o-ring on bottom or top of filter?

[shawnp]

Dave is correct. There is way too much fuel going into this motor. There is no way the motor is burning what you are putting thru it. This is going to cause issues in the cylinders and start filing the pan with alky. I am curious what comes out when you drain the oil. You need to be able to hit the water at 160-170 degrees and gain about 10 degrees going down track, no more than the 15 Dave mentioned by the time you hit the trailer.

[kod99]

Go into the box at 160 with water pump on and at the trailer at 175. Get me some pics of the suction side of the pump to the cell,when your getting the others. There is a reason it wants all the fuel and its not because it makes power to use it all. Additional fuel may cause more issues internally, this stuffs simple and your combo isn't unlike 100s of other's just like it that require less fuel and run faster. A fuel restriction or sucking air on the suction could cause it to want more then needed.

Your nozzles, do you have brass filters or foam style? And do you have the o-ring on bottom or top of filter?

I'll get some pics when I get home on Friday and post them.
I have the foam type filters on the injector nozzles.

When I topped off the tank after the last run, it took 2 gallons. That's about what the engine brurned in the staging lanes, during the run and back to the trailer. That's about what I was burning per run with my 565 engine with a carb.

[kod99]

Dave is correct. There is way too much fuel going into this motor. There is no way the motor is burning what you are putting thru it. This is going to cause issues in the cylinders and start filing the pan with alky. I am curious what comes out when you drain the oil. You need to be able to hit the water at 160-170 degrees and gain about 10 degrees going down track, no more than the 15 Dave mentioned by the time you hit the trailer.

I changed the oil at the track after the first run on Sunday. There was no methanol in the oil. It was clean with no milking.

[ccperf721p]

Are you running a filter between the pump and the barrel valve?

Who flowed the pump? Did you only get one flow number?

Which vacuum pump are you running? I've run a 3 vane enhanced on a 632 without issue.

[shawnp]

How many runs did you have on it before changing the oil? Put a solid weekend on it where you get several heat cycles on the motor. 2 gallons is a little much. When we ran injection even with a fat tune up it was just over a gallon no more than 1.5 gallons max. On the carb it is right at a gallon per run.

[hammertime]

Go into the box at 160 with water pump on and at the trailer at 175. Get me some pics of the suction side of the pump to the cell,when your getting the others. There is a reason it wants all the fuel and its not because it makes power to use it all. Additional fuel may cause more issues internally, this stuffs simple and your combo isn't unlike 100s of other's just like it that require less fuel and run faster. A fuel restriction or sucking air on the suction could cause it to want more then needed.

Your nozzles, do you have brass filters or foam style? And do you have the o-ring on bottom or top of filter?

I'll get some pics when I get home on Friday and post them.
I have the foam type filters on the injector nozzles.

When I topped off the tank after the last run, it took 2 gallons. That's about what the engine brurned in the staging lanes, during the run and back to the trailer. That's about what I was burning per run with my 565 engine with a carb.

Great look forward to seeing them.

On the foam type filters, do you have it from bottom upward... filter,oring, cover ? Just something I've heard of people doing and it messing up things pretty good.

I use 1 1/4 gallon of alky a run. Check the amount of oil, if its real warm sometimes you can not see a lot of alky in oil. A lot of fuel could account for the internal pressure issues.

[kod99]

I tore the vac pump apart last night and it was full of oil. What a freaking mess! The vanes would hardly move in their slots. I cleaned the system completely with brake clean and everything is free and working.
I changed the vac pump suction from the front of the valve cover to the breather on the top, hoping this will help stop the oil problem.

I viewed video of the three runs I made last week and the oil spray looked like it was happening after the stripe when I started to slow down.

I am going to start tomorrow with 39 nozzles and 82 main pill and see what happens. I am tired of cleaning oil off of everything!

[shawnp]

Updates?

[kod99]

Updates?

Sorry I am a little late with updates.

2 runs Sunday at 90 degrees F and 6000' DA.

Run #1
Nozzles: 39
Pill: 90

Left on the foot brake so ET was not great. 8.43

Sprayed oil out of vacuum pump breather again.
Changed oil after run. Very milky. Far worse than with the 41 nozzles and 88 pill.

Run #2
Nozzles: 39
Pill: 95

Car ran 8.20

Sprayed oil out of vacuum pump breather again.

Drained breather - oil was still very milky. I had to cut the top off of a water bottle to drain the breather. The knife was very sharp. I did contemplate cutting my wrists! LOL

One more race weekend coming up Sept 2 - 4.
I am thinking of putting on a crab and switching to gas for that weekend and see if there are any issues with oil spray.

I don't know how much leaner I should go on the methanol.

[hammertime]

Updates?

Sorry I am a little late with updates.

2 runs Sunday at 90 degrees F and 6000' DA.

Run #1
Nozzles: 39
Pill: 90

Left on the foot brake so ET was not great. 8.43

Sprayed oil out of vacuum pump breather again.
Changed oil after run. Very milky. Far worse than with the 41 nozzles and 88 pill.

Run #2
Nozzles: 39
Pill: 95

Car ran 8.20

Sprayed oil out of vacuum pump breather again.

Drained breather - oil was still very milky. I had to cut the top off of a water bottle to drain the breather. The knife was very sharp. I did contemplate cutting my wrists! LOL

One more race weekend coming up Sept 2 - 4.
I am thinking of putting on a crab and switching to gas for that weekend and see if there are any issues with oil spray.

I don't know how much leaner I should go on the methanol.

I would go no leaner, there has to be air sucking or a restriction, did you have your data logger hooked up ?

[kod99]

Updates?

Sorry I am a little late with updates.

2 runs Sunday at 90 degrees F and 6000' DA.

Run #1
Nozzles: 39
Pill: 90

Left on the foot brake so ET was not great. 8.43

Sprayed oil out of vacuum pump breather again.
Changed oil after run. Very milky. Far worse than with the 41 nozzles and 88 pill.

Run #2
Nozzles: 39
Pill: 95

Car ran 8.20

Sprayed oil out of vacuum pump breather again.

Drained breather - oil was still very milky. I had to cut the top off of a water bottle to drain the breather. The knife was very sharp. I did contemplate cutting my wrists! LOL

One more race weekend coming up Sept 2 - 4.
I am thinking of putting on a crab and switching to gas for that weekend and see if there are any issues with oil spray.

I don't know how much leaner I should go on the methanol.

I would go no leaner, there has to be air sucking or a restriction, did you have your data logger hooked up ?

I had it hooked up but I haven't had a chance to view the data yet. Damn work gets in the way. I don't monitor the crankcase pressure with the data logger though. Just RPM, DS RPM, fuel pressure, G forces and voltage.
The dash fuel pressure gauge during the run went to 70 psi, which I think should be ok.
I can't help but think there is an internal problem with this engine. Valve timing, head gasket, intake gasket, cylinder wall damage, piston or ring damage. It is building way too much crankcase pressure.

[hammertime]

Have you done a compression check on it ?

Its surely not normal, and even worse you have a vacuum pump.

[bbchevy]

Updates?

Sorry I am a little late with updates.

2 runs Sunday at 90 degrees F and 6000' DA.

Run #1
Nozzles: 39
Pill: 90

Left on the foot brake so ET was not great. 8.43

Sprayed oil out of vacuum pump breather again.
Changed oil after run. Very milky. Far worse than with the 41 nozzles and 88 pill.

Run #2
Nozzles: 39
Pill: 95

Car ran 8.20

Sprayed oil out of vacuum pump breather again.

Drained breather - oil was still very milky. I had to cut the top off of a water bottle to drain the breather. The knife was very sharp. I did contemplate cutting my wrists! LOL

One more race weekend coming up Sept 2 - 4.
I am thinking of putting on a crab and switching to gas for that weekend and see if there are any issues with oil spray.

I don't know how much leaner I should go on the methanol.

I would go no leaner, there has to be air sucking or a restriction, did you have your data logger hooked up ?

I had it hooked up but I haven't had a chance to view the data yet. Damn work gets in the way. I don't monitor the crankcase pressure with the data logger though. Just RPM, DS RPM, fuel pressure, G forces and voltage.
The dash fuel pressure gauge during the run went to 70 psi, which I think should be ok.
I can't help but think there is an internal problem with this engine. Valve timing, head gasket, intake gasket, cylinder wall damage, piston or ring damage. It is building way too much crankcase pressure.

You OBVIOUSLY have a Leak~Down Tester,.........?USE it,On the MOTOR!!!!!
Later
G 8)

[kod99]

Gonna do a compression test and a cold and hot leakdown test on Friday. I talked to my engine builder and he can't figure it out either. He has been building high HP drag race engines for a long time and he said the only time he has problems is with alcohol engines.
If the compression and leakdown tests indicate the motor is in good shape, I will put on a carb and regulator and run race gas on the long weekend.

I have a question.
What would an engine builder do differently if he was building an engine for alcohol as opposed to building and engine for race gas?
Couldn't you run either fuel in the same engine? I mean, the configuration may not be optimum for both fuels, but I would think the engine would run reasonably on either one. Am I correct?

[kod99]

Here are the pics of the oil after the second run last Sunday. It was changed before the run.
This was with 39 nozzles and 95 pill.

http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb149/reagannelson/Milky%20oil/

[hammertime]

Gonna do a compression test and a cold and hot leakdown test on Friday. I talked to my engine builder and he can't figure it out either. He has been building high HP drag race engines for a long time and he said the only time he has problems is with alcohol engines.
If the compression and leakdown tests indicate the motor is in good shape, I will put on a carb and regulator and run race gas on the long weekend.

I have a question.
What would an engine builder do differently if he was building an engine for alcohol as opposed to building and engine for race gas?
Couldn't you run either fuel in the same engine? I mean, the configuration may not be optimum for both fuels, but I would think the engine would run reasonably on either one. Am I correct?

A good engine builder changes which cam he runs on alky and gas. But you can run gas either way, sometimes a alky engine will cause a pop/miss and require a cam change.

[hammertime]

Here are the pics of the oil after the second run last Sunday. It was changed before the run.
This was with 39 nozzles and 95 pill.

http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb149/reagannelson/Milky%20oil/


WOW ... thats horrible, as I thought its way rich and that oil proves it

I'm thinking you'll find a problem with either way to much cranking compression or a major leak down when hot.

[kod99]

Here are the pics of the oil after the second run last Sunday. It was changed before the run.
This was with 39 nozzles and 95 pill.

http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb149/reagannelson/Milky%20oil/


WOW ... thats horrible, as I thought its way rich and that oil proves it

I'm thinking you'll find a problem with either way to much cranking compression or a major leak down when hot.

I agree David. There is alcohol getting into the oil. But with 39 nozzles and 95 pill, I am thinking it's not the injection system that is the problem. I am going to check to make sure all 8 cylinders are firing and that one isn't dead and just loading up with raw fuel.
The milking of the oil is a concern but what really puzzles me is the high crankcase pressure. 24 psi seems excessive to me. If there was raw fuel dumping into the oil pan and flashing off in the hot oil, it may explain the crankcase pressure. What do you guys think?

[shawnp]

That's what I meant. You are not buring off the amount of fuel that was going thru that motor. It has to go someplace and into the pan is the only place to go. It will increase the crank pressure and explain why it is pushing to get out thru the catch can. On the plus side, your oil pan and intake must be sealed very well if it is not trying to push oil out in those 2 places.

On the cam selection, an alky motor will always want to have more exhaust duration to run as efficient as a gas motor.

[hammertime]

That's what I meant. You are not buring off the amount of fuel that was going thru that motor. It has to go someplace and into the pan is the only place to go. It will increase the crank pressure and explain why it is pushing to get out thru the catch can. On the plus side, your oil pan and intake must be sealed very well if it is not trying to push oil out in those 2 places.

On the cam selection, an alky motor will always want to have more exhaust duration to run as efficient as a gas motor.

x2 on what Shawn said, the fuel has to go somewhere, but its still not explaining why it slows down when you take fuel away, it should pickup.
I actually think it'll be faster on gas right now

[kod99]

That's what I meant. You are not buring off the amount of fuel that was going thru that motor. It has to go someplace and into the pan is the only place to go. It will increase the crank pressure and explain why it is pushing to get out thru the catch can. On the plus side, your oil pan and intake must be sealed very well if it is not trying to push oil out in those 2 places.

On the cam selection, an alky motor will always want to have more exhaust duration to run as efficient as a gas motor.

With a normal engine there should be only one way unburned fuel can get into the crankcase. It has to go past the rings / pistons / cylinder walls.
Unless there is a crack in the block which allows cylinder pressure to get into the crankcase.
Do you guys agree?

[zipper06]

Looking at the build sheet, the 1 thing that's missing is the piston to wall clearance, i'm a little curious as to why that was left off. If there's excessive clearance and as short as the piston skirts are you will have piston rock and even gapless rings will not seal properly. the other question that hasn't been ask, do you have any sleeves in this block? Either way if you have to pull it back down i would definatly pressuse test the blk.

JMO

Zip.

[shawnp]

With a normal engine there should be only one way unburned fuel can get into the crankcase. It has to go past the rings / pistons / cylinder walls.
Unless there is a crack in the block which allows cylinder pressure to get into the crankcase.
Do you guys agree?

You keep dumping this much fuel in the motor and you will end up washing a cylinder out. The fuel ends up in the pan traveling with the oil. This is why your oil is milked so bad.

[kod99]

With a normal engine there should be only one way unburned fuel can get into the crankcase. It has to go past the rings / pistons / cylinder walls.
Unless there is a crack in the block which allows cylinder pressure to get into the crankcase.
Do you guys agree?

You keep dumping this much fuel in the motor and you will end up washing a cylinder out. The fuel ends up in the pan traveling with the oil. This is why your oil is milked so bad.

That's what I am afraid of, washing out a cylinder or diluting the oil so badly I wind up with bearing damage.
I have to locate and solve the problem before anymore runs on alcohol.

[kod99]

Looking at the build sheet, the 1 thing that's missing is the piston to wall clearance, i'm a little curious as to why that was left off. If there's excessive clearance and as short as the piston skirts are you will have piston rock and even gapless rings will not seal properly. the other question that hasn't been ask, do you have any sleeves in this block? Either way if you have to pull it back down i would definatly pressuse test the blk.

JMO

Zip.

I never noticed that zipper. I will check with the builder and see what the piston to wall clearance was.
I don't have any sleeves in the block. It was a new Dart Big M block about 20 passes, and two rebuilds ago.

[zipper06]

I don't know what other builders, run but i limit the clearance to .0065/.007 on alcohol or nitrous, on gas i come down to .0055/.006, with forged pistons. The other question comes to mind is the piston. The build sheet says SRT 14.5 to 1. Did he mean SHP pistons? if so the expansion rate on the SHP and a true forged piston. If so the SRP piston is a high silicon piston and the expansion is less than a 2618 forged piston. I personally will not run a SHP pistion, although that's what a lot of builders use because they are about $150.00 cheaper and they are not a good alcohol piston (in my opinion). I've seen more of them burn down on alcohol than any other high compression piston. JE sells more SHP pistons than any other piston they sell. The other thing is that he says on the end gap on the top ring is .035 and the second ring he says .032, but then he writes gapless, i have never file fit a gapless ring, but maybe i'm missing something. I'm not critising the engine builder, just looking for the problem same as you are

Zip.

[hammertime]

I don't know what other builders, run but i limit the clearance to .0065/.007 on alcohol or nitrous, on gas i come down to .0055/.006, with forged pistons. The other question comes to mind is the piston. The build sheet says SRT 14.5 to 1. Did he mean SHP pistons? if so the expansion rate on the SHP and a true forged piston. If so the SRP piston is a high silicon piston and the expansion is less than a 2618 forged piston. I personally will not run a SHP pistion, although that's what a lot of builders use because they are about $150.00 cheaper and they are not a good alcohol piston (in my opinion). I've seen more of them burn down on alcohol than any other high compression piston. JE sells more SHP pistons than any other piston they sell. The other thing is that he says on the end gap on the top ring is .035 and the second ring he says .032, but then he writes gapless, i have never file fit a gapless ring, but maybe i'm missing something. I'm not critising the engine builder, just looking for the problem same as you are

Zip.

I noticed the samething on the gapless rings

[kod99]

Thanks guys for all the input. I have a lot of good questions to ask the engine builder when I take the car to him tomorrow to do a leak down test. I will update you on Saturday after the test. Thanks again guys!

My goal is to get the problem worked out this year, as our racing season is over in a few more weeks and I don't want to start next season fighting problems again.

[zipper06]

One of the reasons i questioned the SRP pistons is about 2 or 3 yrs. ago we had a person who was posting here that worked for JE pistons and i told him i wouldn't put a SRP in my lawn mower. At the time i was a little upset about melting down the top of a piston for about 1/4" to the first ring on my 1471 blown 358 sm/blk chevy, causing masive damage blowing oil out filling up the catch can and even oiling the right side slick and spinning 4 rod bearing and 2 main bearing and scrapping the crank. He responded with we won't sell SRP pistonn for lawn mowers, and that the SRP piston is only good for 100 HP per hole, anything over that you're flirting with danger.
I'm sure the thread is gone by now, but maybe some remember.

Zip.

[shortyems3307]

i remember zip his user name was arussell. and the thread was je piston tech. august 2008

[hammertime]

I also remember the topic, I didnt run them before that either though.

Kod, is there any other engine builders or is this someone you've dealt with for years ?

[zipper06]

i remember zip his user name was arussell. and the thread was je piston tech. august 2008

Yep That's him, if i remember correctly he said that due to the low expansion rate of the SHP 4032 mat'l, they should be run with .0035/.004 clearance piston to wall clearance.
Hey David i ran them once, but never again, in fact i now build with Probe pistons, cheaper than JE, wisco or anyone else and the same 2618 mat'l for a true forged piston.

JMO

Zip.

[hammertime]

i remember zip his user name was arussell. and the thread was je piston tech. august 2008

Yep That's him, if i remember correctly he said that due to the low expansion rate of the SHP 4032 mat'l, they should be run with .0035/.004 clearance piston to wall clearance.
Hey David i ran them once, but never again, in fact i now build with Probe pistons, cheaper than JE, wisco or anyone else and the same 2618 mat'l for a true forged piston.

JMO

Zip.

I think you do remember correctly, I'd always been told before that point to stay away from them. I am bias towards Wiseco, they've helped me out from time to time and stepped up on my new engine a few months back.

[kod99]

I also remember the topic, I didnt run them before that either though.

Kod, is there any other engine builders or is this someone you've dealt with for years ?

This is my first trip to this engine builder Hammer. He has been racing Super Stock cars and building engines for years. He came highly recommeded by some hard core racers in this area. I know guys who have purchased his engines and he has done good work for them. He doesn't have much experience with alcohol engines and suggested I switch to gas. That's why I was wondering how much build difference there was between an alcohol and a gas engine.
And on the dyno, this engine kept 8 inches of crankcase vacuum while running gas and built 24 psi pressure on alcohol.
I run a HV billet oil pump and he figures maybe it's putting out too much oil and flooding the valve train area. He mentioned putting oil restrictors in the block to limit the oil getting to the top end.
Initially he thought we needed to speed up the vacuum pump to get rid of the crankcase pressure, which I havent tried yet as I just received the new drive pulley yesterday.
We don't have as many engine builders to choose from in the Great White North. I am just about ready to get this engine running right on gas, sell it and order a Steve Schmitt engine.

[hammertime]

Did you get a chance to leak it or compression it yesterday ?

If you do bail on this engine and go another route, there is better shops to choice from then Schmidt also :wink:

[markdunlap]

I believe SRP pistons are 4032 alloy for small blocks and flat top BBC but are 2068 for high compression BBC. I have 2 sets of 496 pistons here and it says on the box and paper work they are 2068. They are a little heavier than the JE and less compression 12.7 versus 13.5 but other than that they are just $200 cheaper.

Are your gapless rings top land or second land gapless? Top gapless should leak 2%.

Have you talked to a tech guy at TOTAL SEAL about rings? Has your engine builder?

I have built some alcohol engines both naturally aspirated and blown and the rings and cylinder wall prep was only difference per TOTAL SEAL specs.

I have had to file fit gapless rings as they were not in the range of .010"-.040".

I have also had a guy switch back and forth on a carburated engine and saw no differece as far as blowby. His engine did not have gapless rings.

[kod99]

Did you get a chance to leak it or compression it yesterday ?

If you do bail on this engine and go another route, there is better shops to choice from then Schmidt also :wink:

I didn't get a chance to do the lead\k down yesterday. Work got in the way.
I plan on doing it today if I can find enough time.

[kod99]

I believe SRP pistons are 4032 alloy for small blocks and flat top BBC but are 2068 for high compression BBC. I have 2 sets of 496 pistons here and it says on the box and paper work they are 2068. They are a little heavier than the JE and less compression 12.7 versus 13.5 but other than that they are just $200 cheaper.

Are your gapless rings top land or second land gapless? Top gapless should leak 2%.

Have you talked to a tech guy at TOTAL SEAL about rings? Has your engine builder?

I have built some alcohol engines both naturally aspirated and blown and the rings and cylinder wall prep was only difference per TOTAL SEAL specs.

I have had to file fit gapless rings as they were not in the range of .010"-.040".

I have also had a guy switch back and forth on a carburated engine and saw no differece as far as blowby. His engine did not have gapless rings.

The gapless are top land. I have wondered about the cylinder wall prep, as this may explaing the difference between what I see from the engine on gas as opposed to alcohol. Crankcase pressure on alcohol and vacuum on the gas.

[zipper06]

I believe SRP pistons are 4032 alloy for small blocks and flat top BBC but are 2068 for high compression BBC. I have 2 sets of 496 pistons here and it says on the box and paper work they are 2068. They are a little heavier than the JE and less compression 12.7 versus 13.5 but other than that they are just $200 cheaper.

Are your gapless rings top land or second land gapless? Top gapless should leak 2%.

Have you talked to a tech guy at TOTAL SEAL about rings? Has your engine builder?

I have built some alcohol engines both naturally aspirated and blown and the rings and cylinder wall prep was only difference per TOTAL SEAL specs.

I have had to file fit gapless rings as they were not in the range of .010"-.040".

I have also had a guy switch back and forth on a carburated engine and saw no differece as far as blowby. His engine did not have gapless rings.

Mark, i'm glad you posted that number, i wasn't even aware of the change from the 4032, so i did a lttle research. It appears that the 2068 is not a lot different than the 2618 mat'l, but a lot different than the 4032 mat'l. The 4032 having 11%to 13% silicone compared to 0.7% of the 2068 mat'l, and .025% with the 2618. Chemical composition comparison posted below.

Zip.

2068 alum.

R.R.56 [1]
Melting point 635°C
Density 2.75
Composition
Copper 2.0%
Nickel 1.3%
Magnesium 0.8%
Iron 1.4%
Titanium 0.1%
Silicon 0.7%
Aluminium 93.7%

2618 alum

Chemistry Data : [top]


Aluminum Balance
Copper 1.9 - 2.7
Iron 0.9 - 1.3
Magnesium 1.3 - 1.8
Nickel 0.9 - 1.2
Remainder Each 0.05 max
Remainder Total 0.15 max
Silicon 0.25 max
Titanium 0.04 - 0.1

[markdunlap]

Sorry guys, but I mis spoke on the SRP alloy for BBC high compression. It is not what I said. It is 2618 just like JE. Also it is not on the box but is in the literature. Oops.

[kod99]

Did you get a chance to leak it or compression it yesterday ?

If you do bail on this engine and go another route, there is better shops to choice from then Schmidt also :wink:

Leaked down the engine yesterday:

Cold

Compression test: 195 to 218 psi

Leak down: one cylinder at 0% and one at 2%. All the others at 1%.


Hot - 160 degrees

Leak down: 3 cylinders at 1%, 4 cylinders at 2% and one at 8%.

I changed to oil after the tests. It looked good. No milking.

Warmed the engine and checked the valve lash. All were good.

The oil in the top of the heads had no indication of milking.

I also cleaned out the vacuum pump, lines and breather tank and changed the drive pulley. The vacuum pump is now spinning at 75% of engine instead of 50%.

Now I am wondering if I am rolling into the burnout box too cold. And the initial hit of alcohol washes the cylinders and dumps into the pan.
I would rather not give up on the alcohol now that I know the engine is tight.
You guys say you are running 39 nozzles and 80 - 85 pill. I run at a normal density altitude of 5500 - 6000 feet. Shouldn't I be quite a bit leaner than you?

[hammertime]

Did you get a chance to leak it or compression it yesterday ?

If you do bail on this engine and go another route, there is better shops to choice from then Schmidt also :wink:

Leaked down the engine yesterday:

Cold

Compression test: 195 to 218 psi

Leak down: one cylinder at 0% and one at 2%. All the others at 1%.


Hot - 160 degrees

Leak down: 3 cylinders at 1%, 4 cylinders at 2% and one at 8%.

I changed to oil after the tests. It looked good. No milking.

Warmed the engine and checked the valve lash. All were good.

The oil in the top of the heads had no indication of milking.

I also cleaned out the vacuum pump, lines and breather tank and changed the drive pulley. The vacuum pump is now spinning at 75% of engine instead of 50%.

Now I am wondering if I am rolling into the burnout box too cold. And the initial hit of alcohol washes the cylinders and dumps into the pan.
I would rather not give up on the alcohol now that I know the engine is tight.
You guys say you are running 39 nozzles and 80 - 85 pill. I run at a normal density altitude of 5500 - 6000 feet. Shouldn't I be quite a bit leaner than you?

Ding ding ... you should be leaner in that air, thats why I kept saying start at 39/80, its on the rich side. Actually may be a 38/80 engine as it doesnt make the power I thought it should of. All your leak down #s look good.

[kod99]

Did you get a chance to leak it or compression it yesterday ?

If you do bail on this engine and go another route, there is better shops to choice from then Schmidt also :wink:

Leaked down the engine yesterday:

Cold

Compression test: 195 to 218 psi

Leak down: one cylinder at 0% and one at 2%. All the others at 1%.


Hot - 160 degrees

Leak down: 3 cylinders at 1%, 4 cylinders at 2% and one at 8%.

I changed to oil after the tests. It looked good. No milking.

Warmed the engine and checked the valve lash. All were good.

The oil in the top of the heads had no indication of milking.

I also cleaned out the vacuum pump, lines and breather tank and changed the drive pulley. The vacuum pump is now spinning at 75% of engine instead of 50%.

Now I am wondering if I am rolling into the burnout box too cold. And the initial hit of alcohol washes the cylinders and dumps into the pan.
I would rather not give up on the alcohol now that I know the engine is tight.
You guys say you are running 39 nozzles and 80 - 85 pill. I run at a normal density altitude of 5500 - 6000 feet. Shouldn't I be quite a bit leaner than you?

Ding ding ... you should be leaner in that air, thats why I kept saying start at 39/80, its on the rich side. Actually may be a 38/80 engine as it doesnt make the power I thought it should of. All your leak down #s look good.

The next smaller nozzles I have are 37's. I will have to use 39 nozzles and maybe a 100 pill?

[maxpower671]

describe your ignition system please? wondering if it is up to the task? trying to sort out a similar fuel system myself... :wink:

[hammertime]

Did you get a chance to leak it or compression it yesterday ?

If you do bail on this engine and go another route, there is better shops to choice from then Schmidt also :wink:

Leaked down the engine yesterday:

Cold

Compression test: 195 to 218 psi

Leak down: one cylinder at 0% and one at 2%. All the others at 1%.


Hot - 160 degrees

Leak down: 3 cylinders at 1%, 4 cylinders at 2% and one at 8%.

I changed to oil after the tests. It looked good. No milking.

Warmed the engine and checked the valve lash. All were good.

The oil in the top of the heads had no indication of milking.

I also cleaned out the vacuum pump, lines and breather tank and changed the drive pulley. The vacuum pump is now spinning at 75% of engine instead of 50%.

Now I am wondering if I am rolling into the burnout box too cold. And the initial hit of alcohol washes the cylinders and dumps into the pan.
I would rather not give up on the alcohol now that I know the engine is tight.
You guys say you are running 39 nozzles and 80 - 85 pill. I run at a normal density altitude of 5500 - 6000 feet. Shouldn't I be quite a bit leaner than you?

Ding ding ... you should be leaner in that air, thats why I kept saying start at 39/80, its on the rich side. Actually may be a 38/80 engine as it doesnt make the power I thought it should of. All your leak down #s look good.

The next smaller nozzles I have are 37's. I will have to use 39 nozzles and maybe a 100 pill?

what still worries me is this, you are rich on your setup, you take fuel away it slows down. Still think there is something else off somewhere, restricting fuel back. Did you by chance leak down the barrel valve when you leaked the engine ?

[maxpower671]

David,

what should the barrel valve leak down be set at?

[hammertime]

David,

what should the barrel valve leak down be set at?

On his setup around 28%

[kod99]

describe your ignition system please? wondering if it is up to the task? trying to sort out a similar fuel system myself... :wink:

MSD 6AL, MSD crank trigger and a MSD Pro Power coil.

[kod99]

Did you get a chance to leak it or compression it yesterday ?

If you do bail on this engine and go another route, there is better shops to choice from then Schmidt also :wink:

Leaked down the engine yesterday:

Cold

Compression test: 195 to 218 psi

Leak down: one cylinder at 0% and one at 2%. All the others at 1%.


Hot - 160 degrees

Leak down: 3 cylinders at 1%, 4 cylinders at 2% and one at 8%.

I changed to oil after the tests. It looked good. No milking.

Warmed the engine and checked the valve lash. All were good.

The oil in the top of the heads had no indication of milking.

I also cleaned out the vacuum pump, lines and breather tank and changed the drive pulley. The vacuum pump is now spinning at 75% of engine instead of 50%.

Now I am wondering if I am rolling into the burnout box too cold. And the initial hit of alcohol washes the cylinders and dumps into the pan.
I would rather not give up on the alcohol now that I know the engine is tight.
You guys say you are running 39 nozzles and 80 - 85 pill. I run at a normal density altitude of 5500 - 6000 feet. Shouldn't I be quite a bit leaner than you?

Ding ding ... you should be leaner in that air, thats why I kept saying start at 39/80, its on the rich side. Actually may be a 38/80 engine as it doesnt make the power I thought it should of. All your leak down #s look good.

The next smaller nozzles I have are 37's. I will have to use 39 nozzles and maybe a 100 pill?

what still worries me is this, you are rich on your setup, you take fuel away it slows down. Still think there is something else off somewhere, restricting fuel back. Did you by chance leak down the barrel valve when you leaked the engine ?

I tested the leak down on the barrel valve when the engine was put on the dyno. I will check it again before running this weekend.
If I run 39 nozzles with a 100 pill, that will be a far cry from the dyno that liked the 39 nozzles and 88 pill. The difference was that on the dyno, the engine temp was always above 150 F.

[hammertime]

You should always be above that on the track also, somethng I see often when dealing with carb or injection is this, people complain of there cars gaining 50-60 degrees from burnout box to the end of the track. It usually ends up they are very cold in the burnout box and they do not run the fan or water pump because they think it'll keep it cooler. To start the day out ALWAYS get it to 170-180 with the water pump on and then let it heat soak in the engine for awhile. Then go into the burnout box around 155-160 with the water pump on, you should be around 160-170 when stagging, make the run and gain 10 degrees, in the shutdown area-turn on the fan to run along with the water pump. When it gets back to the 170 range shut the fan and water pump off.

[kod99]

You should always be above that on the track also, somethng I see often when dealing with carb or injection is this, people complain of there cars gaining 50-60 degrees from burnout box to the end of the track. It usually ends up they are very cold in the burnout box and they do not run the fan or water pump because they think it'll keep it cooler. To start the day out ALWAYS get it to 170-180 with the water pump on and then let it heat soak in the engine for awhile. Then go into the burnout box around 155-160 with the water pump on, you should be around 160-170 when stagging, make the run and gain 10 degrees, in the shutdown area-turn on the fan to run along with the water pump. When it gets back to the 170 range shut the fan and water pump off.

Thanks for the good advice David. It makes sense to me. I probably wasn't paying enough attention to the temps. I will now.
I talked to Ron's and they said that for each nozzle change (ie: 39 to 40) the pill should change 15 sizes (ie: 80 to 95). I never knew the correlation before. He was amazed that the best dyno runs were 41 nozzle and 88 pill and 39 nozzle and 82 pill, because they should have been 30 pill sizes apart. 39 / 82 correlated to 41 / 112.

[kod99]

And the saga ends! Not with a spectacular solution either.

Ran the car last week with 39 nozzles and an 84 pill. I made sure I rolled into the water box at 180 degrees. No oil spray on the runs. Too little heat was the problem.
I picked the vacuum pump RPM up to 75% instead of 50%. I think it was still building crankcase pressure because I had a small valve cover leak. I am going to leave the vac pump on and re-install my header evac system with check valves. Hopefully that cures the pressure buildup. Best run was 7.89 @ 169 mph. DA was 4500 feet.
I wanted to thank all you guys, especially Hammer, for trying hard to help me sort this out.

[bbchevy]

And the saga ends! Not with a spectacular solution either.

Ran the car last week with 39 nozzles and an 84 pill. I made sure I rolled into the water box at 180 degrees. No oil spray on the runs. Too little heat was the problem.
I picked the vacuum pump RPM up to 75% instead of 50%. I think it was still building crankcase pressure because I had a small valve cover leak. I am going to leave the vac pump on and re-install my header evac system with check valves. Hopefully that cures the pressure buildup. Best run was 7.89 @ 169 mph. DA was 4500 feet.
I wanted to thank all you guys, especially Hammer, for trying hard to help me sort this out.

I THINK YOUR MISSING the POINT of a (VACUME PUMP)?IT Makes VAC.NOT Pressure!My Car will set For DAYS and Still have 6-10PSI.OF Vacume!
You OBVIOUSLY are Missing a INTERNAL Motor Issue,that Someone DONT wantto Deal with!!!
SAD but TRUE!
Later
G :?

[hammertime]

And the saga ends! Not with a spectacular solution either.

Ran the car last week with 39 nozzles and an 84 pill. I made sure I rolled into the water box at 180 degrees. No oil spray on the runs. Too little heat was the problem.
I picked the vacuum pump RPM up to 75% instead of 50%. I think it was still building crankcase pressure because I had a small valve cover leak. I am going to leave the vac pump on and re-install my header evac system with check valves. Hopefully that cures the pressure buildup. Best run was 7.89 @ 169 mph. DA was 4500 feet.
I wanted to thank all you guys, especially Hammer, for trying hard to help me sort this out.

Great news !! I read the Saga ends and thought oh no but glad its better..

BBchevy is correct thoguh, your likely on the edge and over driving the pump has helped.

[kod99]

And the saga ends! Not with a spectacular solution either.

Ran the car last week with 39 nozzles and an 84 pill. I made sure I rolled into the water box at 180 degrees. No oil spray on the runs. Too little heat was the problem.
I picked the vacuum pump RPM up to 75% instead of 50%. I think it was still building crankcase pressure because I had a small valve cover leak. I am going to leave the vac pump on and re-install my header evac system with check valves. Hopefully that cures the pressure buildup. Best run was 7.89 @ 169 mph. DA was 4500 feet.
I wanted to thank all you guys, especially Hammer, for trying hard to help me sort this out.

I THINK YOUR MISSING the POINT of a (VACUME PUMP)?IT Makes VAC.NOT Pressure!My Car will set For DAYS and Still have 6-10PSI.OF Vacume!
You OBVIOUSLY are Missing a INTERNAL Motor Issue,that Someone DONT wantto Deal with!!!
SAD but TRUE!
Later

G :?

I agree BBChevy! But I had to solve the oil problem before I could start to address the crankcase pressure issue. It puzzles me to no end, but the leakdown and compression tests were but great. I am gonna rig up a vacuum / pressure gauge and monitor the crankcase during a run.