ARTCICLE ON HOW PISTON RINGS AFFECT HORSE POWER

[hink]

There is a lot of good info if you want good ring seal!!!!

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/84732/how_piston_rings_affect_horsepower.aspx

[oldandtired]

Hink, good article. I wish someone would do a dyno test, with and with out vertical gas ports.

[racear2865]

From Old & tireder
I am not in the category with Hink, So lets git that clear from the git go. I build my on CNC equipment and am building a new Cylinder hone so that I can change every variable of the honing process. I have used all 3 types of ring sealing,1:No gas porting,2: vertical porting 3: horizontal porting. Certain rings will seal better in each of the conditions noted. One thing that I have found is that, if the pistons are not good on land flatness, you can get much blow by with vertical or horizontal porting. Both methods are made to push down and out and if it dont seal against those 2 surfaces it heads straight for the 2nd ring. So you better do sumtin right with the 2nd ring. Also I have found that you should hard anodize the ring lands if you are going to vertical port. I made me a cylinder that is as round as I can get it to play with rings in cylinders. In doing so I found more problems with pistons than I did with rings. All this time I thought rings was always the culprit : not so. We can talk more if you like. I hope Hink jumps in so I can learn more
I think I should have left my 3 degrees at work when I retired and sold my dyno so I could spend more time at home or so the boss says. HeHe

[TheYellaBrick]

Yes, thanks for that enlightening article. It amazes me to this day how any of the engines of my youth, ever RAN ! Used pistons and ring groove cleaning tools had to have had a negative effect on how 'effeciant' those engines were ! :shock: :shock: :shock: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

[hink]

Yes, thanks for that enlightening article. It amazes me to this day how any of the engines of my youth, ever RAN ! Used pistons and ring groove cleaning tools had to have had a negative effect on how 'effeciant' those engines were ! :shock: :shock: :shock: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

This is also 2011 if you didn't know and I hope your not still living under a rock either :lol: :lol: :lol:

The engines we build now are light years over the ones your were doing with your ring groove cleaning tools and I am sure you used a ridge reamer and those were effeciant with taper in the bores HMMM

[racear2865]

Driving Missdd
I still have my old ring groove cleaning tool and I used them many times years ago. But I feel just like Hink, this is 2011 and we have prpgressed in every thing we do. Look at the Wright brothers versus the Jet we travel. Automobile engines have progressed just as much. So why shouldnt we use this knowledge. Hell I remember the party line telephones we had. If we wanted something told, we just told it on the phone and Aunt Jessica took care of the rest. It was better than email or twitter. Rings are a science and black art
racear

[zipper06]

I agree with the article 100%, but there are a lot of variables, such as running alcohol, VS gas, and 10.0 to 1 compression VS 14.0 to 1 compression. Grant was the first people to build a gapless ring, called a Z-gap i was running them in the 60's, but they were cast iron. The big problem today is that the piston manufacturers are mostly on production CNC machines and the groove clearances can vary from .001 to .003 . I lived in PHX. for yrs. and worked 1 blk from Total Seal when they first started out. I used to pick up my rings at their shop. I still run them but they are not good for nitrous or a blown motor. Same with a low drag narrow oil ring, they work best with a vacuum pump. I agree with Racear, piston rings are a black art and each engine has it's own preferance.

With that said before i get myself in over my head, Thanks Hink for the article, i saved it because it has a lot of good advice and for sure makes sense. I wonder how many people actually hone the blocks with the gasket under the honing plate?

JMO

Zip.

[hink]

I agree with the article 100%, but there are a lot of variables, such as running alcohol, VS gas, and 10.0 to 1 compression VS 14.0 to 1 compression. Grant was the first people to build a gapless ring, called a Z-gap i was running them in the 60's, but they were cast iron. The big problem today is that the piston manufacturers are mostly on production CNC machines and the groove clearances can vary from .001 to .003 . I lived in PHX. for yrs. and worked 1 blk from Total Seal when they first started out. I used to pick up my rings at their shop. I still run them but they are not good for nitrous or a blown motor. Same with a low drag narrow oil ring, they work best with a vacuum pump. I agree with Racear, piston rings are a black art and each engine has it's own preferance.

With that said before i get myself in over my head, Thanks Hink for the article, i saved it because it has a lot of good advice and for sure makes sense. I wonder how many people actually hone the blocks with the gasket under the honing plate?

JMO

Zip.

The big problem today is that the piston manufacturers are mostly on production CNC machines and the groove clearances can vary from .001 to .003

We have been using alot of the Mahle pistons power pack and por series they seem to have the tightest ring grooves in the industry.

I wonder how many people are even using a good hone??

Here is a good link on honing

http://www.dartheadstv.com/video/13335

[zipper06]

I agree with the article 100%, but there are a lot of variables, such as running alcohol, VS gas, and 10.0 to 1 compression VS 14.0 to 1 compression. Grant was the first people to build a gapless ring, called a Z-gap i was running them in the 60's, but they were cast iron. The big problem today is that the piston manufacturers are mostly on production CNC machines and the groove clearances can vary from .001 to .003 . I lived in PHX. for yrs. and worked 1 blk from Total Seal when they first started out. I used to pick up my rings at their shop. I still run them but they are not good for nitrous or a blown motor. Same with a low drag narrow oil ring, they work best with a vacuum pump. I agree with Racear, piston rings are a black art and each engine has it's own preferance.

With that said before i get myself in over my head, Thanks Hink for the article, i saved it because it has a lot of good advice and for sure makes sense. I wonder how many people actually hone the blocks with the gasket under the honing plate?

JMO

Zip.

The big problem today is that the piston manufacturers are mostly on production CNC machines and the groove clearances can vary from .001 to .003

We have been using alot of the Mahle pistons power pack and por series they seem to have the tightest ring grooves in the industry.

I wonder how many people are even using a good hone??

Here is a good link on honing

http://www.dartheadstv.com/video/13335

Not many i'm sure, in fact i wonder how many engine builders even understand what RMS or RA finish even is, nor do they have a RMS checking machine, as i don'r think a lot of them even use honing plates. Other factors include putting in hardblock after the blk is finish honed DUH!!
My only problem with Mahle pistons is that the ring groove is too close to the top of the piston and too many of the people today think that nitrous is the only solution to HP (i hate nitrous)
By the way a couple months ago i ask you about needle bearing cam bearings, i was designing/building a needle bearing cam setup for a 1600 Datsun SCCA car. CompCams laughed at me and said it would never work (they tried to do it for a customer) I found compatable bearing with Timkin, and did the job.

You have an EM with pics, of the finished product.

Zip.

[fla1976]

Kind of makes you wonder if CompCams need some "Young Blood" with new ideas. :shock:

[hink]

I agree with the article 100%, but there are a lot of variables, such as running alcohol, VS gas, and 10.0 to 1 compression VS 14.0 to 1 compression. Grant was the first people to build a gapless ring, called a Z-gap i was running them in the 60's, but they were cast iron. The big problem today is that the piston manufacturers are mostly on production CNC machines and the groove clearances can vary from .001 to .003 . I lived in PHX. for yrs. and worked 1 blk from Total Seal when they first started out. I used to pick up my rings at their shop. I still run them but they are not good for nitrous or a blown motor. Same with a low drag narrow oil ring, they work best with a vacuum pump. I agree with Racear, piston rings are a black art and each engine has it's own preferance.

With that said before i get myself in over my head, Thanks Hink for the article, i saved it because it has a lot of good advice and for sure makes sense. I wonder how many people actually hone the blocks with the gasket under the honing plate?

JMO

Zip.

The big problem today is that the piston manufacturers are mostly on production CNC machines and the groove clearances can vary from .001 to .003

We have been using alot of the Mahle pistons power pack and por series they seem to have the tightest ring grooves in the industry.

I wonder how many people are even using a good hone??

Here is a good link on honing

http://www.dartheadstv.com/video/13335

Not many i'm sure, in fact i wonder how many engine builders even understand what RMS or RA finish even is, nor do they have a RMS checking machine, as i don'r think a lot of them even use honing plates. Other factors include putting in hardblock after the blk is finish honed DUH!!
My only problem with Mahle pistons is that the ring groove is too close to the top of the piston and too many of the people today think that nitrous is the only solution to HP (i hate nitrous)
By the way a couple months ago i ask you about needle bearing cam bearings, i was designing/building a needle bearing cam setup for a 1600 Datsun SCCA car. CompCams laughed at me and said it would never work (they tried to do it for a customer) I found compatable bearing with Timkin, and did the job.

You have an EM with pics, of the finished product.

Zip.

Zip

Thanks for the pics you sent!!

We have never used hard block I always say if you need hard block your using the wrong block