ladder bar help

[amcjunky]

hello all this is probly going to be a stupid questions but i am trying to install my ladder bar suspension on my 1971 amc javelin and i am having trouble with leveling the car out

what are some ways of going about this? i don't know what to use as point of reference to start with

thanks justin

[Tod74]

I highly recomend the book "DOORSLAMMERS" it is about $30 but well worth it.

[amcjunky]

well its level now and i got the front cossmember in and everything " mocked up.

the problem i am having now is the cross member it self is 5 1/4 lower then the rest of my car. I am using the square 2" X 3" cross memeber at the moment. would the round cross member give me much more ground clearence?

sorry if i sound dumb and what not just i have never done this kinda thing before and i am young and this is a new world for me

thanks for any input you guys can give me

[Tod74]

My car is a ladder bar car,it has the round crossmember. It is pretty low but not anywhere near 5 inches low I don't think.My car also has the 2x3 rear frame. I would want to start out with the bar level to the ground while in the middle hole. Level to the ground is usually where they work good at so if you are level and in the middle hole you will have adjustment either way. JMO I bought my car as a roller from an old guy and it has always worked well so no real experience tuning it.

[amcjunky]

well what i was told and from reading on the net is that when you put in the ladder bar system you put everything in the middle so you have all of those adjustments. and this is a unibody car with home made frame connectors( not done by me)

Tod how much lower is your cross member then the bottem of your from?

thanks justin

[Tod74]

My crossmember is between the frame railes not below.My car has a full 2x3 frame from the stock clip back... My front mount on the bars is in the lowest hole on mine...if you squat down on your knees and look under the car you can see the heims joint and bolt just below the frame and the bar is level with the ground. I would go out and measure it for you but I'm not at home right now.

[cam67152]

Does your cross member install on the rockers or on the frame? Is this a street car or drag car? What brand bars are they?
You need to make sure you have the car at ride height when you mount the x-membre and your brackets to your housing so your pinion angle is correct with the front of your ladder bars in the middle hole, the bottom bar should be level with the car. Make sure every thing is square, I measure from the grease nipple on the bottom ball joint back to get the lenght equal on the X-membre, then measure from the front right ball joint to the left rear of the front ladder bar bracket, then front left to right rear. this measurement should be equal. This is tedious work that is time consuming double check everyting.

cam67152

[amcjunky]

ok so what I did to get the car level was took a level on the door sills to find out if the car is level from front to back and then to level from side to side I put the level on the front rad support and on my fuel cell in the trunk.

the ladder bar setup itself is from competition engineering and the cross memeber is between the frame rails (well between the frame connectors)

I have the jack stands located on the front frame and on the "slapper" bars in the rear the rear end is still attached to the orignal leaf springs.

[cam67152]

Okay, are you using your leaf springs to support the car or are you going to use coilovers? If this is a drag car with solid rod ends on the ladder bars you'll want 0-1 degree pinion angle. If you are using the springs to support the car you will need a rear axle floater kit or you'll have serious binding! I suggest coilovers.
If your using coilovers, remove the springs, have your car at ride height with the size of tire your using, you can support the rear of the CAR, support the rear AXLE and centre it under the car, rotate rear axle to the pinion angle, assemble the bars according to the instuctions, make sure they are equal. install brackets to bars, with the bars in middle hole they sould be level with ground, make sure they are square and tack them on.
Once tack double check everything! then weld up solid if everything check out.

cam67152

[cam67152]

make sure you have two of the large washers on each side of the front rod ends (between rodend and bracket)when you mount them, or the small bolts on the retainer brackets wont clear.

[amcjunky]

sorry i should have menchened i will be running coil overs to ( q1a's ) and i was planning on getting everything installed and removing the leaf springs after sorry for the confusion.

My problem i am having now is the front crossmemeber is to low right now. its the square ( 2" X 3" i beleave) one. its sitting 5 1/4" below my frame right now and i am scared of it catching on stuff when i go over hills and what not since its in the middle of my car. should i take some pictures?

thanks justin

[cam67152]

Pictures are good :D

[cam67152]

Here are a couple picture, hopefully its som help. The brackets and bottom of the x-membre are 3" below the bottom of my rockers.

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3662/dscn0123t.jpg

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/8118/dscn0118ew.jpg

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/3745/dscn0122bb.jpg

cam67152

[amcjunky]

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/IMG_0004.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/IMG_0005.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/IMG_0006.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/IMG_0007.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/IMG_0008.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/IMG_0009.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/IMG_0003.jpg

ok so its my inexperiance that is causing this i think. My car has quite an angle on it when it sits on all fours. and what i have done is took that angle out and made the car leveling the car itself( took the weight iof all four wheels.

So to correct this i think i need to put the engine and tranny back in ( took it out to go threw the engine and give it a freshin up) and put the weight back on all four tires to get that angle back. and that should move that cross memeber up.

i hope that all makes sence sorry iam not good with words :P

[cam67152]

x-member is WAY to low. you need to mark a 2" strip on the floor and cut it out, or get a different x-member. Are you tubbing this car? or just installing the bars? the bottom of the x-member (the outside edge not the drop section)sould be even or CLOSE to even with the bottom of the rockers. it looks like it has to come up at least 3"

[cam67152]

Are there any suspension guys out there to help out Mr.AMC :?:

[DirkaDirka]

I would help him but I am new to the racing suspensions and all that. So I dont know about them.

[cam67152]

If you are running coilovers you'll be able to set the rear of your car were you want it

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/3554/javelin.jpg

:lol: :lol: :lol: sorry, just having a little fun :wink:

cam67152

[TheYellaBrick]

Boy howdy that crossmember is waaaaay too low. You'd hook on a speed bump and would never get it on or off of a trailer.
I see that you have the rear end sitting on jack stands. That means the rear suspension as it is set up NOW is in full compression. If the driveline was installed it would clear the crossmember as you have it mocked up in the pics, BUT the crossmember is too low. If you were to lower the rear suspension, you could install a straight crossmember instead of the dipped one as shown. Another way is to use a round tube crossmember which will give a tad more ground clearance.
Step one is to set the car up on jackstands and make a reference diagram for your actual desired ride height. That also includes exactly where the rear axle will be and may require disconnecting the shocks and making setup bars to go in place of the shocks, or using 3/4" allthread in place of the shocks to compress the rear springs to your desired ride height. Install the trans without the engine, then install the driveshaft. Now you can see where and how much room you have to work with. Don't forget to leave enough clearance for the driveshaft when the rear suspension is completely unloaded.

[Tod74]

Mine looks about like this one.My bar is in the bottom hole and is level with the ground.

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3662/dscn0123t.jpg

[suicidebomb]

-------

[cam67152]

Like DD said and I said earlier, step #1 set ride height. The x-member isn't upside down.

[amcjunky]

ok well i did talk to someone the night i posted all the pictures and i gave a little write up of what he said i had to do.

basically i need to put the engine and tranny back in and put the slicks back on the car and let the car sit ground agian because it has a pretty good rake( or how ever you spell it) to it.

so what i plan on doing is just that but put something under each tire to raise the car up enough so i can work under there and still have the weight on all four tires and that should in theory rise that crossmember up enough

what are you guys thoughts on going about it that way

thanks justin

[cam67152]

Aren't you swicthing to coilovers? if you are it doesn't matter what rake it has on it now :!: :!:

If it were me,
1. install engine and trans.
2. Jack up car and level it, support it on the rear FRAME to give you room to work.
3. support rear end and remove springs, dont forget to support the pinion.
4. put tires on. raise rear to were you like it.
5. remove tires, centre, level and square up the rear.
6. install drive shaft, support pinion angle at 0-1 degree down,
7. support the assembled ladder bars under the car level or slightly pointed down when in center hole. mark the location of the x-member.
8. cut everything out of the way, tack your x-member in
9. tack brackets to housing and x-member
10. doudle and triple check everything, weld it up!

[kwkracing]

U should have the car with appropriate weight in the front. Have the car sitting on the front wheels and block the back to level the rockers. You are going to have to put your 2x3 cross member in between the inner rockers inside the unibody at the appropriate distance from the rear axle. you should plate the unibody around that area. Now, depending on your tire height you will know your axle centerline from the floor, divide half the total tire height. Place ladder bar brackets on the housing and on the front crossmember. If the car has a low ride height and has a tall tire the bars will point downward a few degrees. Now that in a perfect world you have the car sitting level or how you like, install the shock brackets as per the spec for you shock distance.

[cam67152]

X2 on the 2x3 crossmember location.

[itsabird]

you can start by notching your floor pan, in the area where the cross member goes.

[amcjunky]

well thanks for the help guys I really appreciate it and if i run into some more trouble i will let you guys know

[mopar1968]

That's the way my crossmember is mine is 4 inches off track, my car will not go open trailer without boards to raise it up, my garage has a up hill ramp,'concrete'' and it drags when putting in garage :!: :!:



''JUST MY TWO CENT'S WORTH''

[Tod74]

ok well i did talk to someone the night i posted all the pictures and i gave a little write up of what he said i had to do.

basically i need to put the engine and tranny back in and put the slicks back on the car and let the car sit ground agian because it has a pretty good rake( or how ever you spell it) to it.

so what i plan on doing is just that but put something under each tire to raise the car up enough so i can work under there and still have the weight on all four tires and that should in theory rise that crossmember up enough

what are you guys thoughts on going about it that way

thanks justin


buy/make some of those jack stands that mount to the wheel studs.They are used in auto body work when replacing panels. You will be able to see/access the suspension(no tire in your way)

[mikesramblur]

this should give you an idea.
i couldnt get it high enough at the frame rails so move it forward enouth to take up the length of the bars. this is where it wanted to be so out comes the floor.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k144/mikesamc/car002.jpg


lots more pics here. let me know if it dont work.
http://s87.photobucket.com/albums/k144/mikesamc/

[Tod74]

my floor was cut as well.

[cam67152]

my floor was cut as well.

x-3

[amcjunky]

mikes ramblur did you have to cut up your trunk at all to get your upper shock mount to work? or any of you have to cut your trunk up?
here are some more pictures of my progress

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0025.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0026.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0027.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0029.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0030.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0031.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0032.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0034.jpg

and i am getting someone else to do all the welding everything is just tack welded into place at the moment

[itsabird]

don't forget top bar, for upper shock mounting brackets

[mikesramblur]

im working on a 79 spirit. no trunk. but i did have to do some trimming near the frame to get the upper shock mount pipe in. i shoulda plated it before attaching to the frame but ....
i dont think you will have to go into the trunk.

hard to tell by the pics, did you attach your xmember at the frame? or rockers?

[TheYellaBrick]

2 suggestions;

- Install new brake hardline from the master cyl to the rear axle. Looks very rusty/weak and you got mighty close during the hole hogging in your rear foot well.

- Where the ladder bar mounts attach to the rear axle tubes, it needs to be ground down to bare metal on the tubes for best weld penetration. REMOVE to grind, do NOT try to edge grind the area with a grinder ! Your welder guy will NOT weld it as is if he's conscious about his weld quality.

Looks good in the placement of all parts and pieces though !

[amcjunky]

well everything is just kinda sitting there lol i bungee corded the ladder bars to the axel so i could move them around and to get them to stay on there. i will be redoing the brake lines to make them fit around the ladder bar.

and mike I attached the x member to my frame connectors. I had to move it up in my floor quite a bit tho but I don't think that should matter to much I hope

[promod45]

another idea for you is i would put a heavy ford rear in car since you are this far so that if you ever change gears you can do it on the bench and ford gears are dime a dozen, also when you put your roll bar in make sure you put one bar on the body and one bar on the new cross member on each side of the bar this will help alot in tying it all together..

[cam67152]

I would try to tie a bar in between the rocker, subframe, and new x-member. JMO
Looks like your making some good progress :!: :!:
cam67152

[mikesramblur]

what cam said.

[amcjunky]

well i will put a plate on the frame connectors so that i can weld all the way around it and then put gussets and what not to make it strong.

also do you put the bottom shock mount on the outside or the inside of the ladder bar or dose it matter?

[TheYellaBrick]

Mount rear shox outboard as far as you can straight up vertical for maximum control and tuning. Take into account the future possibility of using wider meats and a narrower housing.
Don't forget a 3rd link to control side to side movement. We had a previous discussion on this very thing here recently, different types, pro's and con's.

[amcjunky]

ok and another thing since i am doing this with the leaf springs and slapper bars still installed and the leaf springs were sagging alot ( to the point were the back mount is touching the frame and the springs were flat and wavy) how do I go about setting ride height?

do I lift up the body of the car to were I want it then put in the springs?

[TheYellaBrick]

SOLIDLY support the car on jack stands, set the rear housing on jack stands at the ride height you want, then remove the stock springs.
IMPORTANT NOTE;
Take ACCURATE measurements (fore/aft/side-side) BEFORE you cut anything loose so it will go back the same.
ALSO MAKE SURE THAT CAR IS SOLIDLY SUPPORTED ! We'd all hate to hear that it fell on ya !

[cam67152]

IMO ride height should be the first thing to determine. It dictates your pinion angle, front ladder bar placement, and shock mount placement.
Regardless, set the car up like DD said, 25-37% of the shock should be in the body to determine were to place the x-bar, hopefully you have spring that are weighted correctly. When that is done and you have the car at ride height rotate the diff to get your pinion angle, there is alot of info on this forum already just serach "pinion angle"
I would really try to use the leftover x-member to go between your frame conectors and rockers, notch it to go over your conectors and but up against your x-mermber, it will really help tie everthing together.
cam67152

[amcjunky]

see you are always about this pinon angle? it shouldn't matter in my case because i have the leaf springs and everything attached still and i am not taking them off till after everything is welded up and thats why i asked about ride height? since my springs were sagging and what not what do i have to do to set that properly?

[mikesramblur]

if the springs are sagging so bad then replace them or add a leaf. bring it back to proper height then start. if you replace springs after everything is done your going to have all kinds of probs. cause your changing the ride height.

[amcjunky]

no no i am leaving them in to keep the axle in place then after i get everything sorted out there coming off and thrown out. do i still have to put different ones in to set the ride height?

[cam67152]

If you are using coil overs it doesn't matter what height it is now. unless that is the height youwant.

move the axle up or down until its where you want it.

[zipper06]

I've been watching this thread from the beginning. I personaly think you are going about it the wrong way, but that's your decision. I agree with the previous poster the ride height should be set first. I personaly would have cut out the floor from behind the drivers seat and backhalfed the car, hooking the ladder bar cross member to the frame ties. But i know you don't want to cut up the car more than you have too. I worked on an AMX 2 seater a few yrs. ago, he also didn't want to cut up the car. In my opinion i would take out the rear end, weld all the components on the housing and then set it under the car set the ride height and build the shock mounts top bar and the shock mounts. I use 1"X1" tubing to set the ride height, see pic below. These are only suggestions, i'm not a pro builder, i've only done a few cars, but they worked very well.

JMO

Zip.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v515/zipper2/sonoma-1.jpg

[cam67152]

The reason I keep bringing up pinion angle is, you have leaf spring in your car, when you put the rear end under load the pinion wants to rotate up, and it DOES, from the factory they new this, sooo they tilt the pinion down as much as 7-8 degrees.

On a ladder bar car the pinion cant rise, if you weld your bars to your housing the way it is. your pinion could have a 7-8 degree angle(not good for U-joints or ET's). you will have some adjustment on the rod ends but you dont have adustable links on the bottom bar which will make it a pain in the a**.

This is why I keep saying... put the front of the ladder bar in the middle hole with 0-1 degree pinion angle at ride height. This way, if you move the front of the bar down (which increases your pinion angle) you will have room on the rear joints to to adjust to 0-1degree pinion angle. Viceversa if you raise the front of the bars.

Raising or lowering the rear of the car also changes your pinion angle.

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/91758/index.html
This might help you understand what I'm trying to get across.

Good luck,
cam67152

[amcjunky]

Ok so basically find out what ride height i want the car to be at (i will do this by putting in the rear coil overs first) then check pinion angle, then do the ladder bars and x member? sorry for the vary vague terms.

i set the pinion angle to 0 or 1 deg no matter the cars rake? i am just supposed to make the rear end parallel to the ground? sorry just want to clarify

and thanks for all the help you guys i really appreciate it

Thanks justin

[amcjunky]

got a little more done...waiting for parts since i cut the top shock mount to small

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0013.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0014.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0016.jpghttp://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0019.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0021.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0025-1.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0025-1.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/pongopig/ladder%20bar/IMG_0025-1.jpg

[kwkracing]

Where do you live?

[amcjunky]

martensville saskatchewan canada

[amcjunky]

ok i got a another question sorry

i got the rear coil overs tacked in and what not how important is it if i am a little off level? like say a 1/16th or less out is that still alright? there out almost exactly the same to

thanks justin

[TheYellaBrick]

.... gluing that thing in !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5tvka9abMk&feature=related

[amcjunky]

hey all thanks for all your help i couldn't have done it with out you. i did find out how "crooked" my car is lol next time i do this it will be a back half kit

i will post pictures after i get car back from welders

[TheYellaBrick]

Stop that vid at exactly 22 seconds and you can see the ladder bar mounts came completely unglued from the housing.