Old brodix -10 heads on a 406 keep them or buy new??

[cartwright454]

Hay what do you guys think, new heads or keep the old??? It just wont run like I think it should. here is wat the motor has. the heads are old -10 spread port brodix heads flowed buy rons racing, 2.10 in 1.60ex (intake gaskets felpro 1206). the cam is a lunati 276/284 at .050, .640/645. victor e itake ported to the heads, flat top pistons witha .014 deck, .039 gasket, heads have 60cc chambers, 850 carb, powerglide trans with brake, 5100 stall converter. the car is 8" tire 2700# vega (with me). 26" tall tire with a 373 gear. the car run 11.20's @ 118 to 124. bad short time of 1.7's (not spinning). I have used 3 dif converters this one is made for the car. I have used a rpm airgap. I think the car should run in the mid 10's. It feels like a dog.
More info . I had the converter make to stall with my combo at 5100rmp on the brake. I told the guy it should make about 500hp. the convert stalls at 5150 on the brake. Am I off here?????? I dont know what else to try. Thanks Billy C

[JEFF69Z28]

TRY A 28 INCH TALL REAR TIRE AND A 4.56 GEAR,I THINK THE 3.73 IS TO SMALL.
JUST MY 2 CENTS WORTH....

[hammertime]

Gear change and a looser converter would help it 5500ish 8"

[cartwright454]

I was thinking it could use a little more gear but I cant get a bigger tire under it. I have in the past changed gears up and down and it has never made that much diff. I have had many race cars but always bbc , as fast as 8.06@170mph. this has me stumped. Thanks bill c

[cartwright454]

I have had a 5600 stall converter and a 4300 converter in it. Ran 11.20,s with both. I would think if the gears were to high it would mph much higher. Thanks Billyc

[zipper06]

That car is way off, i'm thinking also it should run 10.50's. I can only go by comparison, my friend Jimmy Smith, ran 6.80's crosses to a 10.80, with a 355 flat top, @ 3,000lbs, i ran 10.80's with a 406" @ 3250lbs, both of use have 60's in the mid 1.40's and we both run .625's to .640's lift cams with 106 l/S installed at 102* i have Brodix T1's and he has the old pro top line heads.
He now runs alcohol and can run 10.50's / 6.50's, i now run alcohol with a 377" and have run 6.52 and 10.59 @ 125 mph.
I think that's the same cam that Jimmy has in his car if it's has the 106 lobe seperation.
I'm asumming you have 1 3/4" or 1 7/8" headers, also i looked up the gear ratio with your tires. If you run 124mph, @ 7,000rpm's you need a 4.37 gear, at 118 you need 4.59 gear. It almost sounds like the cam is off, did you degree it in? because it doesn't have the bottom end torque it should have.
I also have a set of old Brodix 10's RP-FP heads and they flow 314 CFM at .700 lift. i have run them yet but i have them on the 434" motor that's going in my Malibu.
I don't know exactly what's wrong but something for sure is not right, but i'll bet the problem can be found.

JMO

Zip.

[cartwright454]

Yes the cam has the 106 lsa degreed in at 0. the headers are 1 3/4" I had a nother cam in this thing also 102 lsa. set 4 advanced and at 0. with .630 lift. I know if i did set it at 2 advanced it would not make that much up. I also have had the whole motor apart this summer and everything in a new fresh block. No change. I am about to sell it and go back to a stock head 454 and it will run faster. I would think this thing should run good with these heads. one of my buddies had the same heads on his 80 glass body race truck same motor ran high 9,s all motor and low 9,s with N20. Thanks for the help Bill C

[zipper06]

The only difference i see between the motors that Jimmy and i have to your motor is the compression ratio, with my 406" i had 12.5 to 1 with the track1's and Jimmy has 52 CC heads with flat tops, so his compression is probably close to 12 to 1. The 377" i have in the car is 14 to 1.
Don't know but compression might wake it up, that would be the cheapest way that i can see, around $500.00. If you have some scales you can match the pistons to the weight of the one's you have in the car without having to rebalance the crank/ whole engine.

Your heads are almost the same as i have except i have 58 CC chambers and 2.140 intakes, which will make my 434" about 15.5 to 1, but it's will be on alcohol stacks. I surely hope i don't get surprised with them (heads)
not working good. I am running a much bigger 4/7 swap cam in it.

Zip.

[hammertime]

I have had a 5600 stall converter and a 4300 converter in it. Ran 11.20,s with both. I would think if the gears were to high it would mph much higher. Thanks Billyc

How are you finding the actual stall ?

What brand conv's and size ?

[cepx111]

I agree with Zip, more compression ought to wake it up a bunch.

Just curious since you didnt mention it >How much total timing are you running?

Dont be afraid to crank it on up there to the 39/40 mark with good fuel, that will give it more off the line grunt, something desparately needing.

Once again as Zip suggested the cam could be killing it.
Advancing it a couple degrees will improve torque down low.


As a comparrison : The boys 89 GT mustang (heavier) with a 351W and a small hydralic flat tappet cam and a few other mild mods sixties foots in 170's, mind you this car has a stock converter, nine inch slicks and 373's.
Best 1/8 ET has been in the mid 7.40's

With more compression/ cam timing and a steeper gear (456/488) - you should easily see mid 10's.

Goodluck and let is know how it goes, Cp

[cartwright454]

It has been a while but I think with a flat top 2 notch piston and .014 deck with 60cc heads the compression should be about 12.5 static? I have had a 8" cone 5600 converter, a 10" art car 4300, and now a 10" redneck that I had built for the car 5100, cheep but it has the best short time and the best mph with the redneck. stall is on the trans brake. I have had the timming at 32,34,36,38,40,42.

Thanks BillC

[hammertime]

Find a good 8" and toss that 10" no doubt its slowing you down.

Putting a car on the transbrake and checking the stall is not the way to check the stall nor is it the true stall. In order to find the true stall you will need to find what we call launch fallback stall and after shift recovery stall these 2 will be different and typically the fall back stall is the one you want to nail RPM wise. I can tell you your fall back is prob far from 5100


You are right on it should run mid 10's ..

[cartwright454]

The converter was made for the car and the motor. I hade a $1200 8" cone in it that was for my buddys car same motor #200 more (he runs low 10's). it was the slowest of all. all of the converters were from 11.18 to 11.38. 118 to 126 mph. the cam pulls from 4000 to 8000. the converter I have should be right on. I just know it should run much faster with the combo I havce now.

So every one so far thinks it is not the heads???

Thanks Bill C

[hammertime]

Not heads at all... you have other issues somewhere that gear still is killing it, 10" is not right for it unless its street driving also ? The 8" made for a low 10 second car should be wayy tight for a 1120 car, we have cars going 1.70's running high 12's most your issue is in the first 60ft .. hence the converter/gear issues I keep speaking of. You have far from enough motor for the 10" in a all drag race purpose

[cartwright454]

yes it is driven on the street . If the converter was to tite wouldnt it mph about 130+ and the best short time and mph i have goten was with the 10" . I calculated the gears at 3.73 with the 26" tire. the gear should be the same as a 32" with 4.56. I will try a 4.10 gear next year. I have built this car very close to a buddys car every thing the same but he has a set of sportsman heads same cam same motor. he has a 4.00 gear and a 28" tire. he runs consistent low 10's. I still think it should run in the 10's with this combo. Maybe I am just spoiled with BBC'S . I had a 427 with old out of the box dart heads that ran 8.06@170 in my #2000 altered with 4.10 gears and a 33"tire. Thanks agin for all the ideas. Keep them coming. thanks bill c

[jmarksdragster]

Sounds like a lot of mismatched parts and/or multiple issues, not just one thing. 10 years ago my Dads 2700 lb Malibu ran a 9.80's @ mid 130's with a 406, Pontiac 867 heads, bowtie intake with an adaptor and a Dominator, the same cam you run, 32" tires with a 4.30 gear, 8" 5500 stall. He ran 11.30's with a dish piston 406 on pump gas, 461 heads, and a FT cam in a 3100 lb Camaro.

Your 1.7 short time is a killer, something going on with traction that you may not realize. I would have someone take some video's.

[hammertime]

yes it is driven on the street . If the converter was to tite wouldnt it mph about 130+ and the best short time and mph i have goten was with the 10" . I calculated the gears at 3.73 with the 26" tire. the gear should be the same as a 32" with 4.56. I will try a 4.10 gear next year. I have built this car very close to a buddys car every thing the same but he has a set of sportsman heads same cam same motor. he has a 4.00 gear and a 28" tire. he runs consistent low 10's. I still think it should run in the 10's with this combo. Maybe I am just spoiled with BBC'S . I had a 427 with old out of the box dart heads that ran 8.06@170 in my #2000 altered with 4.10 gears and a 33"tire. Thanks agin for all the ideas. Keep them coming. thanks bill c

That explains the 10" then, actually a looser converter will MPH more then a tight converter. I think if you find the 60ft your et will come .. like said above maybe a video camera is in need.

[cartwright454]

It hooks very well never has spun the tires even with the other converters. also this combo was a long time project that is identical to my budys but I have more compression and maybe to much head and I have more converter?? HIs runs low 10,s in any weather and drives it on the street. I am going to try a lower gear but I dont think it will help much. thanks bill c

[hammertime]

His combo has hit the sweet spot and yours has not, prob a few offs causing a big off. I know several people who have used them heads with good luck. Have you done a leak down or compression check to make sure all is well in the motor itself ? 1.70 still keeps coming back to a traction issues, conv, gear issue

[cartwright454]

Yes I have done a comp. test. All of the cylinders are 190 to 195 (I have a cheep allstar mini starter or it would be over well over 200psi).

I have watched videos of the car and it will pick the tires up 3" , then drop them quick, then it looks like i could run faster to 60'. tires wrinkle nice, not wad them up.

At least my question was answered about the heads. I will keep looking. May be MSD box, I have a old Holley billet distributor (inside the same as msd) could be that. I will have to figure out how to test them. May be fuel?

Thanks for the help BillyC

[wmeabates]

Did you ever try your friend's carb?Your's might be a little off leaving. Lean or rich on launch will slow the 60. Bill Bates.

[cartwright454]

I have played with jetting but not changed carbs. Could be the carb? I am tuning with plugs and highest egt. thanks Billyc

[wmeabates]

The easy way for you to know if your carb is not tuned to your set up is try one that works good on a motor close to yours.The main jets might be close but the fuel curve could still be rich or lean at the low end of your on track rpm.This can be tuned with the high air bleeds and the emulsion bleeds. Bill Bates.

[cartwright454]

Well I have about 5 month to think about it. One thing that makes me think that could be it is it does need a hot plug so they dont foul. Billc

[wmeabates]

I hope you find good from the help you got here.Let us know how you do. Bill Bates.

[cartwright454]

With more digging I came up with the flow numebers from Ron's on my -10's ([email protected] and [email protected]). That puts the peek power at about 7400 way above where I want it.
I picked up a set of brodix rr200(cheep). they should work better in my rpm range. I will see what it runs soon and post the times before I make any other changes. Thanks agin for all the help.

[bigmack]

hey cartwright454
look up c7272 on rj member pages thats my cousin he's got a 72 vega runs low 10's with about the same set up you have he's running a 406 and a 9.5 m&m converter with 4.30 gears and 26 tall tires. look him up and talk with him i think he can help you out. bigmack.

[cartwright454]

I took it to the track yesterday (7-30-10) with the brodix 200rr's and it ran 10.93@at 122. we got rained out so I could not tune it much. The exhaust temps were showing lean(jests or running out of fuel). It now pulls the front wheels and carries them out but the chassie unloads after. I now see mid 10's with no problem. Thanks agian for all the input.
Billy C

[traysvega]

yes it is driven on the street . If the converter was to tite wouldnt it mph about 130+ and the best short time and mph i have goten was with the 10" . I calculated the gears at 3.73 with the 26" tire. the gear should be the same as a 32" with 4.56. I will try a 4.10 gear next year. I have built this car very close to a buddys car every thing the same but he has a set of sportsman heads same cam same motor. he has a 4.00 gear and a 28" tire. he runs consistent low 10's. I still think it should run in the 10's with this combo. Maybe I am just spoiled with BBC'S . I had a 427 with old out of the box dart heads that ran 8.06@170 in my #2000 altered with 4.10 gears and a 33"tire. Thanks agin for all the ideas. Keep them coming. thanks bill c

Your car weighs 30 pounds more than mine with me in it.2670 vs 2700..I run a 388 sbc. NEED more Compression.Heads "could" be fuzzed up .Alittle More gear. (I run a 4.88 set with a 32 tall tire) and deff a (forget about the street) 8 inch converter that stalls 5500 plus on the brake.You car should be as fast or faster than mine. :wink:

Now...Had an old set of -8 that had lots of work done to them over the years.Supposedly flowed 301@ 700 on the intake...But the camaro was a pig. 383 13.to 1.ALL we did was swapped the heads out for a new set of dart pro 1 230 plat's and picked up 3 tenths in the 1/4 ...10.70's to now 10.40's and they have no work done to them yet. :shock:

I personally think the -8 didnt flow what he was told and the port work was just a hogged out set heads that didnt make any power. :wink: