Headers getting RED hot!

[gsforless]

I seem to be plagued with problems with this car regardless of the engine combination I try,something is never right!

I now have a 355 with Vortec heads in the car.I have never used Vortecs,but I know a lotta you guys use and like them,so I figured I'd ask here before I tear the engine down.

I traded for this engine basically as it is-Vortecs on an old model block,Hurricane single plane intake,mild cam,etc.

When I start the engine the headers start to glow after a minute or less run time.I can play with the timing(I've only timed it by ear so far),and the glow sometimes decreases,but never goes away.

The engine seems to be pretty close in time as far as throttle response and starting,but it does have a gear drive in it,and I'm thinking it could possibly be a tooth or two off on the cam timing?Would that cause the headers to glow?

The only other explanation I can come up with is that possibly the intake gaskets aren't sealing(which I know is a big problem with these type heads),and it could have a really bad vacuum leak.It don't really wanna idle at low speed like a vacuum leak will do,but would that cause the headers to get that hot?

I'm kinda at a loss here,and any input would be greatly appreciated.

Glen

[Tod74]

Is it running realy fat? If it is the extra fuel could be burning in the headers..

[gsforless]

It don't seem to be rich at all.I don't even know what jets are in the carb(750 DP),but the carb,ignition,everything right down to the spark plugs are the ones that I used with the 377 I just pulled outta the car,and it didn't act like this!
I dunno if I'm even close on this,as it is only a guess(but at this point guess is all I can do,since this is the first time I've ran into this problem),but am I wrong to suspect a possible vacuum leak at the intake?I dont know if that'd turn the headers red,but I know the Vortecs are prone to intake sealing problems.

[hammertime]

easy to tell if it has a vacuum leak on the top side .. start it up let it idle and spray carb cleaner around it .. if the idle changes you'll know it has a leak :)

typically it'll raise the temp some but still usually not enough to make headers glow

Get a timing light on it to see where you are at would be the first place I'd go ... 2nd would be a compression check to see where that is, you'll be able to tell if the cams way off.

[itsabird]

what type lifters, solids or hyd, if solids valves may be adjusted a little too tight.

[johnracer]

Definately check the timing with a timing light. Retarded timing will make headers glow in a heartbeat. Ears are great for some things, but not setting timing.......

[gsforless]

I certainly appreciate all the input,and I'm definately not disagreeing or disputing anyone-that's why I asked here,but honestly I have NEVER had anything like this happen due to dist. timing and although the problems I've encountered with this car never cease to amaze me,I'm not a novice.I've built quite a few cars/engines.

On another note,I did pull yet more spark plugs to check thier color(the car developed a distinct "miss" after I added water to it).Surprise,surprise-water in #3 and #5,water in #4 and #6.This engine has BOTH head gaskets blown between the cylinders.

I'm not 100% certain if they were that way when I got the engine or if whatever caused the headers to glow also blowed the gaskets.I did notice severe discoloration around the exhaust ports before I installed the engine,but I chalked it up to poorly sealed headers!

It did NOT miss until I filled it with water,but then again,the plugs were dry until that point.There is very slight rust on top of the pistons and in the chamber area of the heads,indicating that water was present prior to me starting the engine,but the piston tops aren't burned "clean" as if it had been ran for any period of time this way.

The engine is(was?)fresh and I suspect the problem occured just before the guy I got it from pulled it out.

This is,after all,the engine I got(on a trade)from Tim Lohden(aka critty396ss) of Elizabethtown,Ky.He lied and said it was a forged 383,when in actuality it IS a cast 355,so why would he bother to tell me it was junk!?

Oh yeah,it is a hydraulic camshaft(although he said it was solid)LOL.

Thanks a lot guys,

Glen

[MEMRACING62]

I rember when you got screwed on that motor, I was looking into a malibu he had for sale here about the same time. after seeing how he delt with you I chose to look on.

[gsforless]

I rember when you got screwed on that motor, I was looking into a malibu he had for sale here about the same time. after seeing how he delt with you I chose to look on.

I'm sorry this thread went off in another direction.My original intent was to seek help with the engine,but if one person reads it and sees what happened with the deal,then I guess the direction change was worth it.

On another note,I pulled the camshaft outta the engine,and it looks perfect,although I have no idea what it is exactly.I would like to be able to re-use it,if I could identify it.I can only see one set of numbers on it-951909.If anyone has any idea what this may be,I'd really appreciate it.I did enter the # in a search engine with no results(other than some type camshaft for a Model T Ford,LOL).

Glen

[gsforless]

I sent Mr. Lohden an email letting him know that I did have his engine running,and that I had left feedback on it here:

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification. Delivery to the following recipients failed. [email protected]


--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject:
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:21:05 -0500








I've had your new engine running.You've recieved appropriate feedback in the racingjunk forums,as well as the others I visit.



Have a nice day,



Glen


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Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.


It seems that he has blocked my personal emails from reaching him,as he has done with his racingjunk account.Buyer beware!!!


Glen

[oldandtired]

By any chance did you check the timing marks on the chain before removing the cam? I wonder if he missed it by a tooth.
Dave

[gsforless]

I actually didn't.It crossed my mind that the cam timing was likely off,but at that time,I had only ran the engine with no water in it(very briefly-maybe 30 seconds),and didn't know the head gaskets were blown.By the time I added water(to my oil pan!),and realized the engine had serious issues,I was so disgusted,I just pulled it completely down,and forgot to check the marks until after I pulled the camshaft.

I think it'll be ok with some new gaskets and everything put back in right,but I still can't identify the camshaft.

[TheYellaBrick]

As the cam is the 'heart' of an engine, a mismatched cam for your application can be more of a detriment than a positive. Better to spring for a new 'known' cam if you're not able to ID what you have now. Remember to get NEW lifters to go with that new cam !

[gsforless]

Yeah,my thoughts exactly.Shame too,as this camshaft/lifters look brand new.I wouldn't be afraid to re-use the lifters with another new camshaft(if they weren't hydraulic).I KNOW I'll catch slack from you guys for this statement(LOL),but honestly,I'm not a big believer in the whole "put 'em back on the same cam lobe" deal.My take on that(and it's been working for years for me)is this:the lifters ROTATE on the cam lobe,so if there's enough wear present for them to need to "match" the wear on the lobe,they need replaced anyway.I have NEVER paid attention as to which lobe a particular lifter went on IF they had no sign of wear,unless I was working on it for someone else,in which case I always kept them in order,just as a general courtesy.If it makes them feel better,I don't mind to do it,but for myself,it's always seemed an unnecessary worry.

Now go ahead-let me have it,LOL.

I do appreciate you guys.

Glen

[cepx111]

Heres to you getting it BIG TIME! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Man thats sucks about the motor. Them kinda stories about people screwing over some else just to make a profit or get out form under something they know is bad makes my blood boil.

I swear I dont know how people sleep at night doing shiznit like that.

Have you thought about legal ramblings against this POS?
Go to the scammers section and get Scorpions111 help, he'll persue the sumbitch to the ends of the earth fro ya, right up his alley.

You might not get any money back but you/ scorpion can dam sure make his life a living hell for awhile.

Hell hounds on your trial boy!


Ok I feel better now. 8)

Alright, one more thing - Sense your comtemplating sticking a new cam in, go with a solid roller, you'll be glad you did.



Goodluck and keep us updated, Cp

[gsforless]

Coincidentally,I have a good set of 292 Turbo heads already set up for a .600 solid roller.I'd LOVE to trade the Vortec top end I just took off this engine for a good solid roller and lifters(something I can use my heads with as is).Wish I hadn't let the cam and lifters go that matched the heads now!

[gsforless]

It's me again!
Sorry if I'm being a "thread hog" here,LOL,but I'm bumping this back up,trying to get it a little exposure and get some help!
I already put all the info in the thread below:

http://forums.racingjunk.com/viewtopic.php?t=12827

Fresh engine,same top end as in this thread,but the heads have been to the shop and shaved,magged,valve job,etc.Same ole problem-red headers!
BTW,I've had people tell me everything from"They all do it,ya just don't notice it unless it's dark" to "All fresh engines do it until they're broke in" to "It's just because the car's not moving and no airflow is getting to the headers"!

Thanks,
Glen

[cepx111]

I done some reseach on this, the consensus seems to be too retarded timing.

Other factors of course were spoken but I'd say 90% of the stuff I read was that putting more timing in and having it come in sooner was the cure, that way the combustion event was good and over before it entered the exhaust.


If you got a locked out dizzy ignore the above, if not I'd recurve it so that it's all in by at least 2200 rpm.

Another strong possiblity is a way lean carb and or big vacuum leak.

How does it idle?

Goodluck>Cp

[Tod74]

How much initial timing are you running? Try locking the distributor at 36-38 and see if it fixes it.

[jmarksdragster]

How much initial timing are you running? Try locking the distributor at 36-38 and see if it fixes it.

Vortec heads won't like that much. I do however think timing is an issue as well, When you put in even a mild performance cam it will respond best with a fair amount of initial timing. You need 20-25˚ initial, yet limiting the total to around 32˚ to start with those heads. It MIGHT take a little more, maybe 34˚ max. The more efficient the piston/combustion chamber combination the less it needs for timing. My 461 SB2 use around 29˚ total, my 427 23˚ engine around 40˚. You need to set your distributor up to limit the mechanical advance to about 10˚. Set it up without a vacuum advance hooked up, once you get it dialed in for steady loads you can add the vacuum advance hooked to manifold vacuum IF it needs more timing for large throttle changes, like going idle to WOT.