Fluidyne Cross Flow - 16 AN - Radiator - heat probs

[jerpazz]

Any help is greatly appreciated. :shock:

I purchased this radiator brand new in box - It's a 16 AN/cross flow Double Pass - 3" (2 row) aluminum Fluidyne.

Engine is a 1968 427 BBC ~550 Hp - in a 2200 lb. 4 speed manual trans car.

I am running the AN fittings direct from the front 2 ports of my intake manifold. I have 2 electric fans (pull thru) and a very air tight shroud as well. My temps are ridiculous - after 5 mins of driving - 220 - 240 deg.

I don't have any restriction (slowing the water flow) - as would be there w/ a thermostat, have tried the fans on both sides (push & pull). Have tried w/ and w/o the elbow bypass hose coming off the top of the water pump to the intake - same prob.

I know the motor is jetted properly
I know the heads are tight (not leaking thru head gaskets anywhere)
I know the timing is right

heres a shot of the radiator:
http://titanmortgageworks.com/TR4-2009/radiator/RADIATOR%20NASCAR%20TRUCK%20TEAM.jpg

here's a shot of my application:
http://titanmortgageworks.com/TR4-2009/radiator/DSC00540.JPG

Any suggestions would be great...

oh.. and am running the temp sender off the passenger side center of the head.

[DirkaDirka]

Have you tried to switch the 2 hoses coming from the radiator?? They might be on backwards and you could be pulling the hot water from the top and not the bottom. JMO

[jerpazz]

Have you tried to switch the 2 hoses coming from the radiator?? They might be on backwards and you could be pulling the hot water from the top and not the bottom. JMO

No Haven't tried that, but both of the hoses you see in the picture are on the output side (so to speak). Draws coolant into the motor thru the bottom radiator hose (not visible in pic) then goes through the motor - and back into radiator thru the 2 top hoses shown in the pic.

I appreciate your input - keep em comin tho' - Thanks

[TS1955]

You say after 5 mins. of driving it gets hot. How hot does it get if you let it idle? Does it over heat? Reason I ask this is I am wondering, when you start driving and get the RPMs up the coolant is circulating too fast and not staying in the radiator long enough to cool down?

TS1955

[DirkaDirka]

You say after 5 mins. of driving it gets hot. How hot does it get if you let it idle? Does it over heat? Reason I ask this is I am wondering, when you start driving and get the RPMs up the coolant is circulating too fast and not staying in the radiator long enough to cool down?

TS1955

This made me think of something else. What kind of water pump do you have on it?? Is it electric? Stock or high output??

[zipper06]

I'm thinking you need to put some restrictors in the 2 top hoses, such as you would if you had a thermastat or restrictors in the return to the radiator. i run a washer and restrict the flow to 1/2" volume return with a thermastat housing. In other words the water is not staying in the radiator long enough to cool down, it will never run cool. You need to slow down the flow so the radiator and fans can do their job.

JMO

Zip.

[jerpazz]

You say after 5 mins. of driving it gets hot. How hot does it get if you let it idle? Does it over heat? Reason I ask this is I am wondering, when you start driving and get the RPMs up the coolant is circulating too fast and not staying in the radiator long enough to cool down?

TS1955

At an idle - after say 5 minutes of driving, you can literally pull up to a light - AS SOON as you are at a stop and it'll go up in temp from say 200 to 235 within 20 seconds. Because of this - as soon as it goes over 210 ish I'll just kill it and restart after the light changes.

Am thinking you may be right with restricting the flow :?: , but the hose dia is only 1/2" ID coming off the intake (X2 hoses) - the ID of the steel braided top hoses I mean.

[jerpazz]

You say after 5 mins. of driving it gets hot. How hot does it get if you let it idle? Does it over heat? Reason I ask this is I am wondering, when you start driving and get the RPMs up the coolant is circulating too fast and not staying in the radiator long enough to cool down?

TS1955

This made me think of something else. What kind of water pump do you have on it?? Is it electric? Stock or high output??

Its a stock iron pump

[jerpazz]

You say after 5 mins. of driving it gets hot. How hot does it get if you let it idle? Does it over heat?
TS1955

Since I'm on break in with this motor - the hottest Ive let it get was ~238ish once. Scared the crap out'a me... sittin at one of our infamous 5 minute TX lights. I've never had it boil over

I will say - as soon as I start increasing the RPM - it'll slow down in it's climbing the temp. NOT stop - just slow down a bit - may take 25 - 30 seconds to go from 200 to 235 (vs. 15-20 secs)

Maybe I'll just block one of the 2 hoses off :?: and see what that does.

[johnracer]

Are you running the pullies that in your show off section pics? Looks like a really small crank pulley and a really big pump pulley. The pump may be turning waaaay too slow.....just a thought
Johnny

[wmeabates]

With no thermostat you can remove that bypass hose going from the intake to the water pump and plug the holes.That will keep hot water from the intake going back in the motor,might help a little.Bill.

[TopspeedLowet]

First off I would verify the true engine temp with an infared type gauge on the water neck and check the rear of the intake as well. If you have not verified the condition with one other temp source or by touching the hoses to affirm you have a HOT condition. Then I would start there, then trouble shoot the problem. All the advice you have been given is with the assumption that you have an over heating condition and have verified the temp gauge is correct.
Bruce

[jerpazz]

Are you running the pullies that in your show off section pics? Looks like a really small crank pulley and a really big pump pulley. The pump may be turning waaaay too slow.....just a thought
Johnny

Yes, am running the small crank pulley - that was the largest (v-belt) crank pulley that I could find with a drive kit for the dry sump pump.
Also is the only w/p pulley due to being a short pump. I thought this was odd when I was doing the assy, but at the time justified it thru the thinking that since I didn't have any restriction, that a slower crank speed may be o.k. at the w/pump (?)

Thx J-Racer - excellent observation - I'll look into this.

[jerpazz]

With no thermostat you can remove that bypass hose going from the intake to the water pump and plug the holes.That will keep hot water from the intake going back in the motor,might help a little.Bill.

Every little bit helps - I will try that as well - thx Bill.

[jerpazz]

First off I would verify the true engine temp with an infared type gauge on the water neck and check the rear of the intake as well. If you have not verified the condition with one other temp source or by touching the hoses to affirm you have a HOT condition. Then I would start there, then trouble shoot the problem. All the advice you have been given is with the assumption that you have an over heating condition and have verified the temp gauge is correct.
Bruce

I haven't done the infrared (I don't have one - but need to invest in one), but have definitely done the touch test. On the top hoses, it's insanely hot after driving ~200+ degrees.

For some reason the Passenger side hose is always hotter than the drivers side hose - even though they are both on the same port - am thinking it may have something to do with the water pump dir of rotation being more efficient on one side than the other (?) Since the eng bay is wide open (no inner fenders etc) - there's nothing holding the heat in, but you can definitely tell when it's getting 'too hot'. You can feel the difference in heat coming over the windshield and thru the firewall in places. At 180 - it feels like a normal 'hot engine'... at 200+ [basically after the first stop light] it's like having a hair dryer blowing in your face.

Will look into a infrared unit to be sure / or another temp guage -

thanks for your advice Bruce

[MEMRACING62]

any heating / ac supply house has them cheap (infrared unit)

[cepx111]

any heating / ac supply house has them cheap (infrared unit)
Harbor freight even cheaper, I agree iwth bruce, verify the temp is the actual temp.

Have you checked to make sure you getting adequete unrestricted air flow going to the rad?

What CFM is your fan? Maybe its just not up to the task?
Try a bigger fan, or a double fan.

Another good idea and a cheap investment would be a 'high flow' aluminum W/P> I got mine on ebay $50.

Goodluck, Cp

[jerpazz]

any heating / ac supply house has them cheap (infrared unit)
Harbor freight even cheaper, I agree iwth bruce, verify the temp is the actual temp.

Have you checked to make sure you getting adequete unrestricted air flow going to the rad?

What CFM is your fan? Maybe its just not up to the task?
Try a bigger fan, or a double fan.

Another good idea and a cheap investment would be a 'high flow' aluminum W/P> I got mine on ebay $50.

Goodluck, Cp

Thanks for the Harbor Freight tip - I'll check it out. Am already running 2 fans tho. (pull type) shroud sealed tight.. that's why am stumped. Once I verify the heat - am going to look for another crank pulley & or water pump I guess.

Did the aluminum WP make a big diff on your temps ? or mostly a weight issue ?

[cepx111]

As far aluminum pump goes, I couldnt tell ya, I've never ran anything but a aluminum high flow since day one on this combo.
I'm sure it will make a differnce though, I've read where they have really helped others, it's worth a shot, and it dam sure cant hurt.


You never did say if you checked for air flow obstructions going to the rad.
On hot race/street motors the radiator really needs alot of clean air.

Have you tried any cooling additives?
Are you running a 50/50 water/ antifreze mixture?

Straight water will run cooler, then you can add some red line water wetter or something like that for their anti-corrision properties.

They claim 20/30 degrees difference.

I personally seen a 15degree change with the boys mustang.


Goodluck, Cp

[jerpazz]

As far aluminum pump goes, I couldnt tell ya, I've never ran anything but a aluminum high flow since day one on this combo.
I'm sure it will make a differnce though, I've read where they have really helped others, it's worth a shot, and it dam sure cant hurt.


You never did say if you checked for air flow obstructions going to the rad.
On hot race/street motors the radiator really needs alot of clean air.

Have you tried any cooling additives?
Are you running a 50/50 water/ antifreze mixture?

Straight water will run cooler, then you can add some red line water wetter or something like that for their anti-corrision properties.

They claim 20/30 degrees difference.

I personally seen a 15degree change with the boys mustang.


Goodluck, Cp

Am running 50/50 coolant - have not tried addatives.

The only obstruction is my grille. I did have to tilt the radiator back a bit to keep it from hanging out of the bottom of the car (front). Tell me if this seems obstructed - or tilted to far:

this is the angle the rad sits at (fans are behind it now):
http://titanmortgageworks.com/TR4-2009/radiator/radiator-tilt.jpg

...with the hood on:
http://titanmortgageworks.com/TR4-2009/radiator/rad-tilt-3.jpg

no core support or inner sheet metal - what's yer thoughts :?:

[DirkaDirka]

I know that the Hummers in the Army have their radiators tilted also and it keeps them running at the normal temp so the tilt aint the problem. What I am thinking is when you have the hood one it is not getting enough air thru the radiator to cool it down enough. Have you tried to see if it over heats with the hood off?? You might have to make a shroud or air dam to direct the air up and thru the radiator from the front.

[jerpazz]

I know that the Hummers in the Army have their radiators tilted also and it keeps them running at the normal temp so the tilt aint the problem. What I am thinking is when you have the hood one it is not getting enough air thru the radiator to cool it down enough. Have you tried to see if it over heats with the hood off?? You might have to make a shroud or air dam to direct the air up and thru the radiator from the front.

Yep - same heat with or without the hood, it does heat up slightly slower w/o the hood, but still gets up to same temps.

[racecrafter]

Kinda hard to see from the pics if you have a fluid recovery type of catch can or not. also how are you bleeding the air out of the system....tilted radiator is more likely to have a trapped air pocket if you do not bleed air out from the highest point in the system.

[TheYellaBrick]

Thanks for the Harbor Freight tip - I'll check it out. Am already running 2 fans tho. (pull type) shroud sealed tight.. that's why am stumped.


here's your prob..pulling instead of pushing...

[TheYellaBrick]

http://www.jegs.com/p/Micro-Temp/Spark-Industries-Infrared-Thermometers/760614/10002/-1

[TopspeedLowet]

Thanks for the Harbor Freight tip - I'll check it out. Am already running 2 fans tho. (pull type) shroud sealed tight.. that's why am stumped.


here's your prob..pulling instead of pushing...
You see that your fans are on the front of your radiator where the air is trying to enter when you are traveling forward. You just may have mis spoken......... but you said that these fans are pullers. Well that will raise hell with air flow when you are driving. Verify that air is being pushed through your radiator to the water pump side when they are on. Otherwise switch the direction of the motors to correct the over heating problem.
Bruce

[DirkaDirka]

Thanks for the Harbor Freight tip - I'll check it out. Am already running 2 fans tho. (pull type) shroud sealed tight.. that's why am stumped.


here's your prob..pulling instead of pushing...
You see that your fans are on the front of your radiator where the air is trying to enter when you are traveling forward. You just may have mis spoken......... but you said that these fans are pullers. Well that will raise hell with air flow when you are driving. Verify that air is being pushed through your radiator to the water pump side when they are on. Other wise switch the direction of the motors to correct the over heating problem.
Bruce

Not trying to cause problems but he says at the top of the first pic that the fans are behind the radiator now. Just thought I would point that out just in case you missed it.

[TopspeedLowet]

Thanks for the Harbor Freight tip - I'll check it out. Am already running 2 fans tho. (pull type) shroud sealed tight.. that's why am stumped.


here's your prob..pulling instead of pushing...
You see that your fans are on the front of your radiator where the air is trying to enter when you are traveling forward. You just may have mis spoken......... but you said that these fans are pullers. Well that will raise hell with air flow when you are driving. Verify that air is being pushed through your radiator to the water pump side when they are on. Other wise switch the direction of the motors to correct the over heating problem.
Bruce

Not trying to cause problems but he says at the top of the first pic that the fans are behind the radiator now. Just thought I would point that out just in case you missed it.
I did miss that info, thank's for the correction. It seemed too obvious based only on the picture.
Bruce

[DirkaDirka]

No prob. Just didnt want you to think I was trying to put you down or anything.

[jerpazz]

yeah - sorry about that - I thought that old pic might cause confusion. I had the fans on the front to begin with - polarity pushing air through from the front, then built the fiberglass shroud for the back of the radiator and mounted them behind (in hopes that was my prob) - reversed the polarity to pull air through.

Am going to take a bit of everyones input here:
1- Infrared thermometer
2- larger crank pulley (or much smaller w/p pulley)
3- stand radiator more upright
4- use straight water and some cooling additive
5- slow down the flow
6- check into getting an aluminum/or iron hi perf pump

did I miss anyting ? - keep 'em comin - I appreciate the input.

It seems like such a small item after shoehorning this drivetrane into this car, but the heat definitely takes ALL the fun out of it. :?


Kinda hard to see from the pics if you have a fluid recovery type of catch can or not. also how are you bleeding the air out of the system....tilted radiator is more likely to have a trapped air pocket if you do not bleed air out from the highest point in the system.
racecraft --
The burp tank is mounted under the pass side fender, I've tapped the cap lever [release] and it never has air - straight fluid...
keep em comin. - Thanks everyone. !

[DirkaDirka]

yeah - sorry about that - I thought that old pic might cause confusion. I had the fans on the front to begin with - polarity pushing air through from the front, then built the fiberglass shroud for the back of the radiator and mounted them behind (in hopes that was my prob) - reversed the polarity to pull air through.

Am going to take a bit of everyones input here:
1- Infrared thermometer
2- larger crank pulley (or much smaller w/p pulley)
3- stand radiator more upright
4- use straight water and some cooling additive
5- slow down the flow
6- check into getting an aluminum/or iron hi perf pump

did I miss anyting ? - keep 'em comin - I appreciate the input.

It seems like such a small item after shoehorning this drivetrane into this car, but the heat definitely takes ALL the fun out of it. :?


Kinda hard to see from the pics if you have a fluid recovery type of catch can or not. also how are you bleeding the air out of the system....tilted radiator is more likely to have a trapped air pocket if you do not bleed air out from the highest point in the system.
racecraft --
The burp tank is mounted under the pass side fender, I've tapped the cap lever [release] and it never has air - straight fluid...
keep em comin. - Thanks everyone. !

I dont think you will need to stand the radiator upright more than it is. It looks like a tight fit already. The ones in the Hummers are more at an angle than what yours is and is a sealed radiator. We didnt have any problems with air getting trapped in them at all. I didnt see if ti had a thermostat in it or not sorry.

Also where is the burp tank in relation to the headers?? Is it close to them or no??

[jerpazz]

nope - no thermostat.
the burp tank is a good 15" from the headers.

[TheYellaBrick]

SUGGESTION;
Make only one change at a time so that you'll know EXACTLY what the prob was. VERY time consuming but much more valuable info.

[wmeabates]

When you change the polarity on fans to make pullers out of pushers,If the blades have a curve to them they should be turned around so the inside of the curve faces the direction the air is moving toward.Bill.

[zipper06]

I don't think the laid down radiator is the problem, i have a 1990 vette and it's close to 30* laid back as are most of the vettes.

Zip.

[cepx111]

What kinda car is that anyway, looks kinda like a bugged eyed sprite?
I bet it hauls the mail, cool set-up.

Cp

[rooski67]

A friend of mine had a similar problem. turned out he had a reverse rotation water pump on the car. Replaced it, fixed the problem. Just a thought.
Good luck

[jerpazz]

What kinda car is that anyway, looks kinda like a bugged eyed sprite?
I bet it hauls the mail, cool set-up.

CpCepx - its a '67 Triumph TR4 - it clicks right along, but gets wayyy too hot

[jerpazz]

A friend of mine had a similar problem. turned out he had a reverse rotation water pump on the car. Replaced it, fixed the problem. Just a thought.
Good luck


hmmm - interesting. Did they make a reverse flow pump for the old school 427's ? --- I would LOVE for the problem to be that easy.

[zipper06]

With the rad. cap off and the engine running, if you see water fllowing thru a cross flow rad. it's not a reverse rotation pump.

JMO

Zip.

[jerpazz]

Are you running the pullies that in your show off section pics? Looks like a really small crank pulley and a really big pump pulley. The pump may be turning waaaay too slow.....just a thought
Johnny

Johnny -
I think you nailed it.
I had to do some machining to the Moroso Crank Mandrel (in the Moroso dry sump drive kit) to get my stock crank pulley to seat properly against the balancer, [there's about a .125" lip on the factory pulley that sits inside the balancer, but the Moroso set up sitd flush with the face of the balancer]- after switching to the larger pulley - it stays at a constant 170-180. After getting on it pretty heavy - it ran up to about 192, but after about 2 miles at 70 - it dropped back down to about 170 again.

It seems to follow my oil temp very closely now rather than vice versa before

I went back through all the Moroso, summit. jegs etc etc to see if Moroso made a larger dia (same as stock) crank pulley... the one I have is the largest, which was about 1/2 the size of the stock one. This fixed it !

Thanks for the advise.

[DirkaDirka]

Thats awesome that you found and fixed the problem.

[johnracer]

Are you running the pullies that in your show off section pics? Looks like a really small crank pulley and a really big pump pulley. The pump may be turning waaaay too slow.....just a thought
Johnny

Johnny -
I think you nailed it.
I had to do some machining to the Moroso Crank Mandrel (in the Moroso dry sump drive kit) to get my stock crank pulley to seat properly against the balancer, [there's about a .125" lip on the factory pulley that sits inside the balancer, but the Moroso set up sitd flush with the face of the balancer]- after switching to the larger pulley - it stays at a constant 170-180. After getting on it pretty heavy - it ran up to about 192, but after about 2 miles at 70 - it dropped back down to about 170 again.

It seems to follow my oil temp very closely now rather than vice versa before

I went back through all the Moroso, summit. jegs etc etc to see if Moroso made a larger dia (same as stock) crank pulley... the one I have is the largest, which was about 1/2 the size of the stock one. This fixed it !

Thanks for the advise.

You're very welcome! Sometimes I get lucky.....glad I could help
Johnny

[jerpazz]

Thats awesome that you found and fixed the problem.

Absolutely ! - I appreciate everyone's input.

you get enough gearheads gathered around a mechanical problem... it's bound to get worked out.