dart little M oil restrickers?

[etchison]

just had major problem (#4 rod though oilpan) engine bluilder didnot restrick oil in my 434. motor had 18 runs. all good parts. coated bearings. pretty much said it was my fault for not hearing a noise the run before. the two time runs that morning 9.103 and 9.100 @ 147. i motor sounded good to me. thats why i drove 400 miles round trip and paid 300 enrty fee

[Tod74]

I never run oil restrictors. I used to but I haven't in a long time. I see no benefit in starving the valve train of oil. I know why people do it, to keep more oil available for the bottom end, but I think restricting oil to the top is bad idea.ESPECIALLY with roller lifters. Sorry about your motor I've been there it sucks.


ONLY MY OPINION.

[zipper06]

Dark Little M has primary oiling to the mains, they recommend that you donot run oil restrictors with that blk. If i were a betting person i would say you had other issues to lose a rod. IE wrong clearance, not good rod bolts. I don't know what kind of clearance you had but i always run .0025/.003 rods and mains and the best rod bolts available L19 bolts only. A lot of engine builders use the std. 8740 rod bolt that come with most rods, big mistake in my opinion, especially on a high dollar race motor.

JMO

Zip.

[etchison]

let me ask this my #12 fitting for my vaccum pump is on top of my valve cover over my # 5 intake rocker if i hit the breaks to hard i will pull over 1 1/2 qt of oil out of engine. sound to me like valve covers are filled with oil at the finish line. heads are afr 227 cnc 23* had the oil drain backs opened up bigger. only change on last rebluid that and a bulliet oil pump

[supergass]

I have two thoughts, The coated brearings DO ADD to the overall measurement even tho they say they dont in some of there literature. Clevite bearings have worked for years, there still good now too. Another thing is on the Dart blocks you must hone the lifter bores to get the proper clearance. If you dont then when the heat comes they will seize the lifters in the bore and hold the valve open and then kill it. I would think that it wouldnt be your problem with several passes already on your motor.

[supergass]

After I re-read I guess you didnt have alot of passes on the motor. COated bearings killed a friends motor because he made the mistake of not re-measuring the clearance and they were too tight. Destroyed a new Lunati Crank new oliver rods destroyed the block the cam everything. In just a couple of passes too.

[hink]

just had major problem (#4 rod though oilpan) engine bluilder didnot restrick oil in my 434. motor had 18 runs. all good parts. coated bearings. pretty much said it was my fault for not hearing a noise the run before. the two time runs that morning 9.103 and 9.100 @ 147. i motor sounded good to me. thats why i drove 400 miles round trip and paid 300 enrty fee

Was it a bearing issue or did the rod just fail??

[etchison]

it was a oiling issue at some point during the run the mains where going dry. before this rebuild i had 336 runs on motor changed pans and billiet pump and now have problems

[us7race]

What pump and pan was on this motor? How many quarts of oil?

[etchison]

stefs alum 7 qt pan melling select oil pump 10050-750ss.

[zipper06]

Just curious? did you have oil restrictors in the block when you had over 300 passes on the motor before the rebuild? I'm not saying that you're not pumping out 1 1/2 qts. on a hard shutdown, but i am leaning toward not enough clearance on the bearings. If you had restrictors before why didn't you reinstall them before installing the motor. I've never had this happen before, and i have a Dart L' "M" block built 434" but haven't installed it yet. I'm watch this thread very carefully, i cannot afford this to happen too me. All i have is an 8qt. pan and a high performance Moroso oil pump.
Also you didn't say what kind of rods and what bolts, did a bolt break, did a rod break. I'm still curious about where it started, except you said a main bearing went dry.

Zip.

[etchison]

the motor had billet oliver rods 6" 2.10 lj. with arp bolts. as far as the rod breaking it was still tq to specs just the bearing was missing there was about 3/4" on the caps 2" still on wrist pin/piston this motor never had restrickers in it before! in fact dart tells u not to use them

[curtisreed]

I had a lot of oil control issues with the Stef's aluminum pan I ran last year when I was stopping. Would lose oil pressure in the shutdown area until I added an accusump.

Curtis

[zipper06]

WoW, etchison
This is not an easy one, and i feel for your loss. I'm thinking that some of the problems was with the clearance, but i'm sure that some other people will have different ideas. I personally donot use with the high dollar pans and have not had a problem with the $79.00/or less 8 qt. pans with a flap/trap door to control the shut down. I know that nothing i can say will help the pain or cost to put your engine back together, but if i was in your shoes i'd go back to what worked before.
I can say it's very hard to tell the difference on running out oil and too little clearance on the bearings.
I want to thank you for sharing your experience and i hope it doesn't happen too me.

Zip.

[cepx111]

it was a oiling issue at some point during the run the mains where going dry

A low oil pressure system could of saved this motor most likely.
I cant understand why people wont use a low oil pressure light and a low pressure shut off.
Why spend 10K or 20K on a motor and not invest $100 on a low oil pressure shut off switch?
A oil accumator is a good idea too.

I'm with zip go back to what you used before.
Sorry for your loss.
JM> 2cents Cp

[TheEngineer]

My new Dart Little-M stroker is almost finished and I'm at point where I need to make a final determination on the restrictors.

The people at Dart told me this about the Little-M priority main oiling and restrictors. They said, "if you're using a standard oil pump, don't run the restrictors." "But, if you're running a high-volume pump, use the restrictors."

I have a HV Moroso billet oil pump, so I currently have restrictors installed per Dart's advice. However, my plan is to use the oil primer shaft with a drill and carefully watch how-much oil is moving to the top of the engine through the lifer bores. Then based on too-little or the right amount of oil top side, I'll decide whether or not to leave, or remove the restrictors.

Also, the lifer bores have been honed in my new block and the lifters (Howards Pro-Max) feel very smooth in the bores.

So, what do you think about my plan? i.e., make a decission on the restrictors based on what I see with the top side oiling with the primer.

Warren

[hink]

Look at the lifter and if the oil hole on the side of the lifter is in the oil band you could run the restrictors but if the oil feed hole is on the side of the lifter it will use the oil clearance in the lifter bore to feed with and I would not use restrictors there as its already being restricted!!

[TheEngineer]

Look at the lifter and if the oil hole on the side of the lifter is in the oil band you could run the restrictors but if the oil feed hole is on the side of the lifter it will use the oil clearance in the lifter bore to feed with and I would not use restrictors there as its already being restricted!!

Good information /\ /\ /\

I looked my Howards Pro-Max lifters over, and they appear to oil through the center of the lifter. And should not restrict oil flow.

I talked with Dart again today on the restrictor issue with my Little-M Sportsman block. They thought my idea about observing the top oiling while priming was a good idea and gave me some suggestions on what action to take if needed.

1. First check to see how well it is oiling on the top with the restrictors inplace.
2. If it isn't oiling enough, removed the restrictors and recheck.
3. Then, if it is oiling too much at the top with the restrictors remove, get 1/4" NPT plugs (inner oil plug) and drill 1/8" holes in the plugs for minimum oil restriction. FYI the outer block oil plug is 3/8" and the inner 1/4".

Warren

[hink]

We do restrict oil to the lifters if we are using sprayers in the valve covers to keep the springs cool this is a dry sump application.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/CNCBLOCKS/BIGTRUCK003.jpg

[DRTRCR22]

Warren,
I just don't see how you could get a drill driven primer tool to pump up enough oil to the top side fast enough to simulate top end revs...? Uless you figure out how to hook it up ot a high speed die grinder or something?

I prime all my engines to check for oil flow to each rocker before I button it up, and I have never got enough flow to even squirt out over the edge of the heads using a [high speed] drill.

My engine builder refuses to put restrictors because he says the oil needs to cool the valve springs and upper valve train.
My argument is why then have I lost several bottom ends because all 8 quarts of oil are pumped right up and out of the valve cover tube breathers (circle track valve cover setup) and all over the engine compartment as the bottom end cavitates and welds the rods to the crank????? He can't answer that one...?

So I put the restrictors in myself after I get it home and before I put the engine in the car.

I have never lost a top end because of lack of cooling oil, but I have lost several bottom ends because of pumping all the oil right out the topside...!

Jim

[hink]

Warren,
I just don't see how you could get a drill driven primer tool to pump up enough oil to the top side fast enough to simulate top end revs...? Uless you figure out how to hook it up ot a high speed die grinder or something?

I prime all my engines to check for oil flow to each rocker before I button it up, and I have never got enough flow to even squirt out over the edge of the heads using a [high speed] drill.

My engine builder refuses to put restrictors because he says the oil needs to cool the valve springs and upper valve train.
My argument is why then have I lost several bottom ends because all 8 quarts of oil are pumped right up and out of the valve cover tube breathers (circle track valve cover setup) and all over the engine compartment as the bottom end cavitates and welds the rods to the crank????? He can't answer that one...?

So I put the restrictors in myself after I get it home and before I put the engine in the car.

I have never lost a top end because of lack of cooling oil, but I have lost several bottom ends because of pumping all the oil right out the topside...!

Jim

Over 38 years of building engines I have not restricted and wet sump engines ever and never lost a bottom end yet.

Where are you going to put 8 quarts of oil on the top end???

If your are running screen kits in the lifter galley you may want to do away with them.

I have run 6 quart systems before and no issues HMMMMMMMM

[cam67152]

Are you running a flat pan? if so when your hard on the binders all the oil can go straight to the front if it doesn't have something to hold it back. If you run a sump you only need enough oil to cover the pick up how much more oil does it take to cover the pickup on a flat pan?

CAM67152

[TheEngineer]

Last night I primed the engine with the drill for several minutes, also turning the engine over from time to time to cycle the S/R lifters. The oil was flowing really well over the rollers in the lifters, however, I wasn't getting "any" flow up to the Jesel shaft rockers.

By compairson, last year when I primed my GM block LT-4 race engine with S/R cam and Comp lifters, the oil was flowing "big time" up the push-rods to the shaft rockers.

So, I removed the restrictors which were installed by the machine shop to look them over. They were 1/4" NPT plugs w/ a .100" hole. So, I drilled them out to .130" and plan to recheck everything tonight (run the primer again).

Additionally, I talked with the tech people at Howards about the Pro-Max lifters and the top oiling issue. They thought the restrictors with a .130" hole was the correct option for my engine and that it would oil the top end once it was actually running. And not getting any top flow while priming was typical, I just need to check to make sure the top is oiling after is has been run a short time.

Warren

[DRTRCR22]

Well Hink, Cam and Warren...

As you can see in my avatar pic, I run an IMCA Dirt Modified on 1/4 to 3/8 clay circle tracks. We run 20 all out laps from 3500rpm in the corners to 8000 down the straights.

We run 8 qt flat pans with right side kickout and offest pickup into the kickout. These 7 or 8 qt pans have numerous gated baffles, scrapers and windage trays in them, some costing over $500 with the pickup tube.

Where are you goning to put 8 qts of oil in the top end you ask...? Right out the breather tubes, that's where! There is no place else for it to go other than blow out the valve cover gaskets or out the breather tubes. And No, I do not run screens, tubes or plugs in my galley.
Yes... valve cover gaskets blown-outs are another big problem, even with the high dollar rubber ones with metal laminate in them...

The left valve cover has two tall tubes with K&N breathers on top, on the left bank only.

With everyone on the brink of 8K rpm pushing oil out thru the breathers, most guys are going to a NASCAR style remote breather oil catch can, hosed off completely sealed crankcase and valve covers via -12an fitting and line off the left bank valve cover. The excess oil is then drained out of the catch can after each race. I have been noticing more and more different catch can setups from race parts outlets, because apparenly this is a huge problem for everyone running circle track engines over 7K rpm for long periods of time.

Notice on Hink's engine pic with the oil spraybar tube fittings...?
No valve cover venting...? Hink, where do you vent your crankcase?

It seems that everyone installs the Melling M55-HV (or M77-HV big block pump which only makes matters worse), because nobody wants to chance a stock style pump in a $10k race engine...? (No, we cannot run a dry sump system, our rules don't allow it).

I have even seen several oil filters sucked so hard at high rpm that they collapse/implode, cutting off oil supply until splt second failure at 8K.
I have lost two engines the past five years because of this, the first one using a Fram PH5, then another using a Fram HP4 racing filter. I have thousands of people tell me that is IMPOSSIBLE, and I couldn't hardly believe it myself until it happened to me...TWICE!
Now I use only WIX racing filters.

Guys, one thing I cannot understand... WHY are you messing with drilled out 1/4" plugs, when for a just a couple bucks you can buy proffesionally built screw in oil restrictors with the proper length and o-rings and size for your application from any race parts outlet?????
They make sets specifically for flat tappet, or roller cam setups, and they work exactly the way they should...

Well, bottom line, in all my years experience with high revving circle track engines, alky and fuel alike, is that bottom end oil loss is the #1 reason for catastrophic failure. Valve train failure is #2 because of turning these engines so tight. Now that IMCA is allowing 'after-market' blocks, most everyone is going to the DART SHP or Little M blocks with priority oiling to help eleviate this problem.

Again, Hink, how are YOU breathing your engine...?

Jim

[DRTRCR22]

Oooops never mind Hink... I just went back to look a your photo again and just now noticed the dry sump pump. You obviously run a remote oil breather catch can like I am talking about... thru the dry sump lines though. We cannot do that...

Jim

[TheEngineer]

Jim,

Really good write-up. /\ /\ /\ /\

Also, it sounds like you're running your engine really hard! Much, much harder than drag racing!

The reason I'm using the drilled 1/4" NPT plug, that is what Dart and several other people recommended to me for my engine. Also, everyone recommended a .125" to .150" hole in the restrictors. Additionally, I'm not sure my Little-M block can use those long restrictors with the O-ring.

Warren

Here are some photos.

http://gi77.photobucket.com/groups/j64/BIYQRGF9O7/100_1555.jpg?t=1259886325

http://gi77.photobucket.com/groups/j64/BIYQRGF9O7/100_1556.jpg?t=1259886666

[DRTRCR22]

Yeah Warren, we run these things WAY too hard IMO.
Most of these engines don't even last one full season... 40 nights at best!
Heat, and dirt, and torque thrashing... on and off throttle constantly....

Well, I just got my first Lttle M engine this past season. It was originally built by Dennis Millert out of Kansas City, (who allegedly builds Clint Boyers' dirt late model engines). I bought it used with only 24 nights on it, but when I switched from Alky to VP 110 something went wrong and burnt six pistons. It was a 388 CI using a 3.625 stroke, 6" rods, and 4.125 bore... all brand new Dart 400 mains Little M with Dart Platinum heads, and all Comp roller cam top end assembly.
Wow that engine was the strongest I have ever driven, and several other experienced race buddies drove it and cofirmed the same.
But, my current engine builder, Mike Elmore, convinced me to get all the cubes I can so he talked me into a 404 CI rotating aseembly (+.020 bore to clean up the burnt cylinders), but flat tapped cam to be IMCA legal.
He just got it done and broke in, and it sounds even stronger than before. I have right about $13K in this engine now, and am almost scared to even put it in the car for next season. With the financial hurt I am in now, if it blows again I am out for good...

Personally, I don't think I would run ANY oil restrictors in a Dart block... that is why I got my Dart engine so I wouldn't have any more oil cavitating or overpumping problems with its primary selct oiling system.
Since this is my first Dart engine though, I will just say that is just my opinion, and may find out differently as time goes on.

Let us know how yours turns out and what is does... thanks, Jim

[zipper06]

I've been watching this thread from the start, but waited to chime in until the discussion has covered most of the questions.
I too have a Dart Lil "M" 434" (drag motor)but don't plan to run restrictors, i run the Crower HiPro roller lifters which also oils the rollers thru the lifters and they oil on the lifter body above the band on the lifters, another reason i'm not running restrictors. With the .020 oiling holes to each roller plus the oil holes in the pushrods, i'm not sure i could get enough oil to the dedicated T&D oiling system for the rockers. I don't run a vacuum pump (yet) just a header evac system. The engine is on alcohol with Hilborn stacks.
I know that you (Jim) bought your Dart blk. engine used, but i believe you would have been better off if you could have found a blk. with 350 mains, or run bearing spacers, with turning that many RPMs. That's a big drop in heat and crankshaft weight from 2.650 to 2.450 main jurnal size. In fact most NASCAR guys are running 2.300 main jurnals.

Zip.

[TheEngineer]

This is the new Dart Little-M 427 stroker with Dart Pro-1 230 heads.

http://gi77.photobucket.com/groups/j64/BIYQRGF9O7/100_1557.jpg?t=1259934452

[hink]

I've been watching this thread from the start, but waited to chime in until the discussion has covered most of the questions.
I too have a Dart Lil "M" 434" (drag motor)but don't plan to run restrictors, i run the Crower HiPro roller lifters which also oils the rollers thru the lifters and they oil on the lifter body above the band on the lifters, another reason i'm not running restrictors. With the .020 oiling holes to each roller plus the oil holes in the pushrods, i'm not sure i could get enough oil to the dedicated T&D oiling system for the rockers. I don't run a vacuum pump (yet) just a header evac system. The engine is on alcohol with Hilborn stacks.
I know that you (Jim) bought your Dart blk. engine used, but i believe you would have been better off if you could have found a blk. with 350 mains, or run bearing spacers, with turning that many RPMs. That's a big drop in heat and crankshaft weight from 2.650 to 2.450 main jurnal size. In fact most NASCAR guys are running 2.300 main jurnals.

Zip.


Cup teams are running 2 inch mains and when Toyota first got into the scene they were using a 1.750 main journals in their engines.

[zipper06]

I've been watching this thread from the start, but waited to chime in until the discussion has covered most of the questions.
I too have a Dart Lil "M" 434" (drag motor)but don't plan to run restrictors, i run the Crower HiPro roller lifters which also oils the rollers thru the lifters and they oil on the lifter body above the band on the lifters, another reason i'm not running restrictors. With the .020 oiling holes to each roller plus the oil holes in the pushrods, i'm not sure i could get enough oil to the dedicated T&D oiling system for the rockers. I don't run a vacuum pump (yet) just a header evac system. The engine is on alcohol with Hilborn stacks.
I know that you (Jim) bought your Dart blk. engine used, but i believe you would have been better off if you could have found a blk. with 350 mains, or run bearing spacers, with turning that many RPMs. That's a big drop in heat and crankshaft weight from 2.650 to 2.450 main jurnal size. In fact most NASCAR guys are running 2.300 main jurnals.

Zip.


Cup teams are running 2 inch mains and when Toyota first got into the scene they were using a 1.750 main journals in their engines.

Even smaller than i thought, i was baseing that on the many cranks for sale for the SB-2's on Ebay with 2.300 mains and 1.876 rods.
:oops:

434" Lock and Load.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v515/zipper2/100_0735.jpg

Zip.

[DRTRCR22]

Well Zip, I never thought about the heat factors on large journal mains...?

I have been hearing a lot about the much smaller "Honda Rod Journals" cranks, but have never seen or heard about smaller mains since extinction of the old 283/327 small journal GM blocks...?

The latest trend [I have been hearing and seeing around my scenes] is to go with big bores (4.125 or bigger) and long strokes (3.75+) for monster torque, and using a much taller gear to knock the RPMs down to a reasonable 7200 or less, also to help prevent blistering the tires off coming out of the corners. That is why Elmore talked my into benching the 3.625 stroke and going with the 3.75 stroke and 4.145 bore to make a 404 instead of the 388.

I agree Zip with ALL your reasons for NOT running oil restrictors in any Dart or World block, that is why I chose to splurge on this engine.
I will keep in mind about the smaller journal sizes and heat factor, as I think you are onto something here...

I think, besides cost savings, that may be one reason most circle track engine builders are now going to the SHP block in 350 mains rather than the Little M block with 400 mains. I was leaning toward the beefy bottom end strength and never considered additional heat factors.

One thought here though... NASCAR engines turn a lot more smooth, steady, consistent RPMs than our engines do, and do not take near the "beating" abuse that we dish out. I don't beleive those small journal engines could take the pounding abuse we give on our battlegrounds...?

I considered building a small journal, very short stroke, high revving screamer (3.00 or 3.25 stroke), but every time I mentioned that I was convinced that is definately the wrong direction for our type of racing abuse.

Also, if you have ever read most dirt track rules, we are very limited in what we are allowed to do. IMCA is VERY strict, with engine claim rules in every class, and top four car (each class) tech inspections every night.
No auminum heads or roller cams, and no quick change rear ends... :(

Thanks guys, I really appreciate and enjoy the sharing of info. Jim

[stickboy331]

where i work we build many wisota legal 2bbl dirt 350s. depending on class they are solid or hyd lifter, with stock rockers and single spring. with careful setup this will runup to 7200 or so with good relibality.we did have some issues with top end oiling. rocker arms were turning blue, getting hot. to get to the bottom of this we took a steel valve cover and cut the top off. then welded a sheet metal tube a foot tall to it. on the dyno you could see where the oil was going maybe, then i grabbed the timing lite. by turning the advance dial or switching the pick up to a diffrent cylinder you could see everything. every drop of oil, where it came from, and where it went. we found rockers dont allways squirt straight, and some lifters flow more oil than others. now we could make choices based on fact. by careful parts selection we were able to redirect the oil flow to the rockers. this allowed us to use a lower psi oil pump=more power. springs and rockers are a splash lube deal. oil flow will be determnend by how hot it will get and how long the race is. do not restrict it any more than nessary let some one else try the .050 hole. we dyno with system one screen filters, and use wix race filters. get an oil filter cutter and cut open every filter that comes off your motor! stickboy331

[DRTRCR22]

Thanks Stick... yeah, I agree with you on that.
I think, if rules allow, that the spraybar valve covers are the best idea, but they are kind of expensive... I think they are legal in IMCA, I will have to check.
I still don't think I want to run a stock low volume pump on my $13k engine though...? I will just add the breathable catch can and keep the 8qt pan full of Joe Gibbs race oil before every race...
Jim

[stickboy331]

what kind of oil do you use we use brad penn 1030 or 2050

[DRTRCR22]

Well, to be honest, I am not sure... My engine builder just broke in my new 404 with Joe Gibbs break-in oil last week, and just switched out the light break-in valve springs for the racing springs today.
He is switching me to Joe Gibbs racing oil but I am not sure which grade yet...? I will find out tomorrow when I pick the new bullet up after final run-in.
I had been running Mobil 1 synthetic for years, but he wants JG in this new Dart engine...
Jim

[DRTRCR22]

Yeah, I have heard a lot of good stuff about Brad Penn, and the following form thread is interesting...
I grew up near Bradford PA, and was very familiar with Kendal oil.
I use to run it in my 70 SS454 Chevelle when I was just a teen... good stuff. Man I wish I had that car back... :cry:

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1503937

[zipper06]

Hey Jim,

I did not intentionally knock your engine setup, if i did i appolagise. What i was trying to say was that thru the yrs. of experience is that i prefer to run the smaller main bearing. I have run stock 400 blks for yrs. and still do have a 377" stock blk. I have since the 1980's ran bearing spacers with the 400 blks.with success and the engine above (Dart Lil"M") is my first adventure into a true race block, but i bought it with 350 mains. I will say that with the gearing in my car if i can get it to perform the way it should, it will be turning, close to 8,000 RPM's, but only 5.50 sec. 1/8mi.@3250lbs, if it don't i'll be the laugh of the day. Only time will tell.

Zip.

[DRTRCR22]

No foul Zip, I didn't take it like that... I really appreciate the discussion and helping info. That's what we are on here for, right?

I just got back from Mike Elmore's shop (Elmore Race Engines @ Carlsbad NM CarQuest) where we did the final run-in with the new valve springs. Man it sounds sweeeeeet!

We discussed the oil topic, and he says he likes Brad Penn green racing oil because it does not foam up in the alky engines.

BUT, he said, that can be VERY decieving as the alky still dilutes the oil down, and not having the foaming indicators can lead one to mistakenly believe it is in much better condition than it really is.

Mike broke in my 404 in with Joe Gibbs Break-In oil, and he wants me to use Joe Gibbs XP4, and change it every week.

With the Wix filter this will come out to about $50 a weekend, but after spending $13K on this bad boy I am not going to argue...

He also highly reccomended putting the 7200 chip in the box, and gearing it for bottom end torque pulling around 7k.

I already put my 6.00 gear back in the floater, which should be just right for local 1/4 mile clay tracks with this much bottom ends now...

Jim

[zipper06]

No foul Zip, I didn't take it like that... I really appreciate the discussion and helping info. That's what we are on here for, right?

I just got back from Mike Elmore's shop (Elmore Race Engines @ Carlsbad NM CarQuest) where we did the final run-in with the new valve springs. Man it sounds sweeeeeet!

We discussed the oil topic, and he says he likes Brad Penn green racing oil because it does not foam up in the alky engines.

BUT, he said, that can be VERY decieving as the alky still dilutes the oil down, and not having the foaming indicators can lead one to mistakenly believe it is in much better condition than it really is.

Mike broke in my 404 in with Joe Gibbs Break-In oil, and he wants me to use Joe Gibbs XP4, and change it every week.

With the Wix filter this will come out to about $50 a weekend, but after spending $13K on this bad boy I am not going to argue...

He also highly reccomended putting the 7200 chip in the box, and gearing it for bottom end torque pulling around 7k.

I already put my 6.00 gear back in the floater, which should be just right for local 1/4 mile clay tracks with this much bottom ends now...

Jim

Just curious, did the engine builder say if you had to put a zinc additave with the Joe Gibbs oil, since you said you're running flat tappets, or doe it have enough zinc already?

Zip.

[DRTRCR22]

Well, the JG Break-In oil has a very high concetration of ZDDP just for that reason. It now has about an 1/2 hour run time with about four gallons of VP113 run thru it.

I will be setting the car back up on alky, and will run it in again on alky for another half hour before changing out to the JG-XP4.

If I am not mistaken, I think ALL the XP grades have extra ZDDP in them, that is why they cost $5.00 to $9.00 a qt. depending on blend.
That sure is hard to swallow, but then again so is $13k in broken pieces all over the track... :cry:

From what I have learned about current shelf blends, and the reason these race oil comapnies are having to put new stuff in their race oils, I can't see that we have any choice, even for moderate and mild street machines...? :roll:

[zipper06]

I hear you, i have a friend, runs a 350 sprinter, basically stock bottom end (rules) with 2 3/16" injection on alcohol. He lost 3 cams before he got to the track (no roller allowed) the cam company's said O'Well, not our problem, they suggested nitrating the cam. They say the lifters are not as hard as in the past, but truth is the oils are not what they used to be. I have a killer 406" with a flat tappet cam, that ran 10 yrs. ago and i'm trying to figure out how to not make the cam go flat when i put it togethger and on the street.

Zip.

PS, you are going to be amazed at the tourque difference between the 404" and the 388" i'm not a roundy, round racer, but i can tell you the difference on the drag strip are dramatic.

[DRTRCR22]

Yes... that is another whole story about the cams now days...

When we decided to pull the roller cam out of the equation, to make the engine fully IMCA legal, Mike insisted on a 'hardened nitrided' flat tappet cam and lifter combo from JR Motorsports.

This kit cost more than twice as much as I was use to paying, but is almost mandatory nowdays because of declining cam, lifter and oil quality.

A hardened cam should last a full season, whereas a current standard non-hardened cam and lifter kit may not make a full season of hard abuse.

I can't hardly wait to put my foot into this 404, and will have to be careful to stay off of the wall. The 388 on roller cam was scary, so I hope the non-roller setup does not disappoint me...?

Jim

[DRTRCR22]

Zip, here are the specs for this cam from JR Motorsports.com:
(NOTE: the book shows slightly different numbers, they upgraded the specs since last printing) I've heard several times that circle track cams make excellent drag cams due to massive toque from the bottom end up thru the lights.

JR109H (the H for hardened) 260/270/106+4 from Custom Cams Inc.

Recommended range = 3200 rpm thru 7200 rpm

Duration @ .050 = I 260, E 270

Lift w/ 1.5 rockers = I .561, E .578

Lobe lift = I .343, E .385

Lobe speration 106*

Lash (hot) = I .020, E .022

Standard SBC firing order

The cam costs $200, and the Crower lifters with oiling hole in face (EDM)are $164

This sounds like a cam kit that may work for your application when time to change it out again...?

Jim

[stickboy331]

we lost a cam on the dyno last summer, in 350 2bbl dirt mod. it was a p55 core with hi polish hyd lifters, and brad penn break in oil. we were running z28 springs for break in,only took about 20 minutes :cry: checked the system one filter and found iron in there. the lifters were worn more than the cam. only 3 and not real bad junk just, the same filter trapped all the junk,swapped out the cam&lifters ran great.the last one that went flat had joe gibbs in it,that was in 2007. we like the crower lifters with flats on the sides hyd, or edm holes solid. since then we have ben checking lobe taper on every cam. some cams dont have much=low or no lifter rotation. it olny takes one bad lobe, and you cant tell by looking i ran 3.56 stroke 400s 404 sounds like fun stickboy331

[zipper06]

Zip, here are the specs for this cam from JR Motorsports.com:
(NOTE: the book shows slightly different numbers, they upgraded the specs since last printing) I've heard several times that circle track cams make excellent drag cams due to massive toque from the bottom end up thru the lights.

JR109H (the H for hardened) 260/270/106+4 from Custom Cams Inc.

Recommended range = 3200 rpm thru 7200 rpm

Duration @ .050 = I 260, E 270

Lift w/ 1.5 rockers = I .561, E .578

Lobe lift = I .343, E .385

Lobe speration 106*

Lash (hot) = I .020, E .022

Standard SBC firing order

The cam costs $200, and the Crower lifters with oiling hole in face (EDM)are $164

This sounds like a cam kit that may work for your application when time to change it out again...?

Jim

The Bullit cam i have is jus a little bigger and it was a killer in the 406 i was running. I got talked into changing to a roller and alcohol toliet bowl and only picked up 1/10= $1,000.00 plus dollars :oops:

Zip.

Here that cam,i installed it at 102*
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v515/zipper2/flattappetcambullit.jpg

[DRTRCR22]

That's cool Zip... I wish they would let us run rollers in IMCA...?
BTW, how do you paste the pic on your replies? I wanted to copy and past my cam card but couldn't figure out how to do it...?

Yeah Stick, I guess it does not matter how good of oil you put in, if you got a bad grind and the lifters don't spin, it is only a matter of a couple minutes before it is total trash. And, hopefully the lifters don't mushroom so bad you have to take the entire engine apart and turn it upside down to beat them out from the bottom side. Been there done that a couple times... :evil:
Fortunatly, over the last 10 years I have only lost two cams that way... I guess I have been real lucky. I look at these cam kits on sale for $100 on eBay right now and just shutter thinking about the quality you get for a hundred bucks...?
Jim

[zipper06]

It's not a copy and paste, you first have to upload in on the net , i use (http://photobucket.com/) upload your photo and use the bottom URL after it's uploaded. You will have to sign up for an account, no problem there, and it goes into you albums. You can store vids,pics,etc. Easy and free.
If you need more help pm me and i will send you all that's needed.

Zip.