New motor 565 cid bbc....... carb or toilet???? [Archive]

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onefastcamaro

03-17-2009, 04:20 PM

Just bought a new motor for my camaro. 1980 z28 565 bbc, 14.5 to 1 comp, solid roller 785 int 775 exh 285 292 at 50, 350 cnc heads 2.30 int and 188 exh valves, abruzzi 2 speed, bdr converter 5600 stall, 456 gear, 32-14.5-15 slick. 2930lbs with me.

I do have a set of 320cc heads should i have the smaller heads on it?

I have the choice of running my 1090 king demon that works great on gas or installing a 4.10 toilet on alcohol... I have never run alky before so it will be a learning curve.....

give your opinions

joe

dak697

03-17-2009, 05:19 PM

go with the injection

hammertime

03-17-2009, 06:38 PM

toilet .. it'll be faster and help the small head out

bjuice

03-17-2009, 07:04 PM

if you go injection. How do you plan to plumb it for fuel delivery. i want to get you thinking a little..

nofear57

03-17-2009, 07:24 PM

Gas and let it snort nitrous 8)

onefastcamaro

03-18-2009, 01:23 PM

was going to put on a belt drive 0-1/2 pump with a front mount tank.

lowbudget377

03-18-2009, 04:52 PM

call system builder - they will get you setup right the first time :lol: = VIC

bjuice

03-18-2009, 05:01 PM

was going to put on a belt drive 0-1/2 pump with a front mount tank.

if thats the case you are ok there on the room..i have ran alcohol blown injected,ron's (toilet) injection, natually aspirated ( Alcohol APD carb).

and i have come back to Gas for Good....i can give you the reasons why i made the decision to stop using Alcohol. not neccesary in the order of importance

1- Damn Tough getting and keeping heat in motor.also can be tough to start at the initial start up. ( unless you jerry rig a gas primer etc...)

2- Condensation is a beeeotch...we all know what water in an engine does.

3- Corrosive to lines etc..Very Grainy fuel also

4- you might as well count on Double the maintenance with changing oil and washing down different parts of engine (Fuel lines,valve train etc..) if you care for your stuff as you should

5- as a result of the above it will wash out bearings much quicker then gas ever could.

6- it use to be cheap..now that it has spiked in price the Burn rate Vs Gas is not economical anymore...( pleae factor in your Top Lube as well)

7-You cannot see it Burning..it about got me 2 years ago after a carb back fire under the hood..we was on Fire and never knew it....

8- the fumes are major hazzardous..this stuff will posion your a$$ in a skinny minute..dont crank up in a enclosed place...DON'T put the scented top lube ( smells like candy to people and can cause them to purposely smell the fumes)...done went thru that also ( vp candy scent)..

9- can be more rapaidly absorbed into the Body thru Skin,Lungs etc...it will build in your system and shut down vital Organs..Got a good friend that went thru this..bout killed his a$$...the levels in his Blood were out freaking rageous.

Now this is just My take on it and why i chose to stop using the stuff,,,as a matter of fact i got 30 or so gallons left in a drum in my shop i would give someone if you could pick it up..

you will have other people tell you how much they love it and would never go back to gas..

i guess you have to listen to everyone and then make up your Mind whats it worth to you running the stuff.... ( if its worth 2 or 3 tenths) then i guess your down with it

Now IMO ya much better off,tweeking the engine for Nos ( cam,gear,converter) and picking up 7 to 8 tenths and be safe about it..if you in this for the power

i know this is long post but i wanted you to get my full opinion that you ask for.

Brian

cepx111

03-18-2009, 10:49 PM

Carbed, Gas

Just a comment here:

I have in the past comtemplated switching my car to alcohol, but after reading that last post by Brian - noway - I'll find that 2 or 3 tenths elsewhere.
Cp

onefastcamaro

03-19-2009, 04:14 AM

thanks for all the info... i do know alky is very toxic as well as corosive. i was just looking at the overall performance gain... my cam is good for 300hp shot of juice so maybe i'll go that way insted... I am a bracket racer so consistency is the key as you know....

tks again
joe

hammertime

03-19-2009, 06:03 AM

I respect everything Brian said and alky isnt for some people but IMO alky is easy and when run no milky/hard heat up issues. My biggest thing here is, going from day to night you see gas carbs have a 3-4 # change, then see alky guys maybe move 1. As a bracket racer alky is a great thing, more consistent (most the time), no problem getting it cool when need be (gas sucks in the late late rounds).

I do agree on the not seeing the flame, and being toxic and ya have to be pretty safe there.

I run alky and hose it as much as the next guy and dont have issues. Again its all what ya think is right, 90% of the time its easy ET gain with being more consistent.

dparker

03-19-2009, 06:43 AM

I run a 15 to 1 race engine which is a whole lot more trouble than a stock engine would be. Alcohol does take more maintance. But it can pick you up as much as 3 tenths and is more consistant et wise at the track. But if I run everything because is was easier I'd be racing my tow vechile. But thats what makes racing so fun. Everyone has something different, no two cars are the same.

nofear57

03-19-2009, 12:02 PM

I had commented to run gas earlier because nitrous is way more fun. You have much more room to add hp or take it away. This is good when track conditions get worse also but you really have to know how your car will run to dial it in.
My altered has alcohol and is very very consistent but in the evening when the sun goes down and the track cools off,it spins the tires because of the lighter weight so I launch it softer.
If you haven't run alcohol before you should try it,if you don't like it,switch back.

onefastcamaro

03-19-2009, 02:34 PM

Alright then i will try the toilet first but i will need some help getting started as i am not up on alcohol at all... i am a mechanic by trade and build all my own motors so once i get the principals of tuning it i should be ok.... so give me all the info you guys have. pump size and parts i should have. i do have the 4.1 toilet and barrel valve and lines.... where should i start for nozzels and jet size... motor combo is at top of thread...

tks
joe

hammertime

03-19-2009, 07:28 PM

zipper06

03-19-2009, 08:23 PM

Alcohol, toxicity, yes, more mainteniance, yes, but it's not nearly as bad running injection on alcohol as with a carberator. Most people i know who run injection don't worry about flushing the system unless the car is going to sit for a month or so, me included. With a carberator you do have to clean it out after every weekend of racing because there are more things to corrode and more passages that can plug up.
I also run turnouts because my headers are unside the frame headers, and the fumes are really bad if i don't have them on.
I can recall starting my car up in my inclosed trailer to let a friend hear it, i didn't drop down the rear door, i almost sufficated, and could barely get out of the car from the fumes (i'll not do that again for sure) But alcohol forever, not rubbing or drinking.

With that said, i don't even know how to spell Gggaaas, o'h wait i got it GAS.

JMO

Zip.

Tod74

03-19-2009, 10:54 PM

hammertime

03-20-2009, 05:23 AM

Question for Zip and Hammertime...or anyone else that knows.

I have several friends that run Ron's terminator set up and they love it and have no issues that are too crazy...My question is toilet vs terminator...pros and cons of each. sorry to highjack.

both can be made to work, I've owned both and feel on the right size motor a terminator is much easier to tune then the toilet. Its less sensative. All alky setups usually come back to the people setting them up. I've got NOT 1 thing bad to say about a APD alky carb, I've owned several and won tons of money with them.

I think the biggest problem for most is this, either the owner, or the owners friends/buddies think they can make a good setup injection/carb from a top name builder better and they start messing with it, then cant get it back when they get it way out of wack, so they give up and call Alky junk and go back to gas. I cant count how many alky setups I've fiddled with after people screwed them up and got them right back to good, only to watch them fiddle again. sorry for the long post .. but people make alky harder then it is .. carb, injection, all easy with some know how.

Tod74

03-20-2009, 08:13 AM

My friends almost never fool with theirs...I know the weather changes things but I never see them touch it. One is a tube chassis door car with an all aluminum 415(I think 415...it may be a 421) the other is a Slip tube Spitzer dragster with a 400 ci sm blk....both cars are very consistant.

zipper06

03-20-2009, 08:53 AM

Todd,

I don't know the difference between a toilet and a terminator, i've never personally run a terminator, but do have a toilet on my 377" and i've messed with a lot of stacks injection units. To me they are easier than a carb to tune, i never mess with the barrel valve after i have it set to what the car likes, either on a stacks or toilet. As you know we can get some 100 degree temperatures here in the south so just changing the pill up or down from the sweet spot is all i ever do. My friends 396" sm/blk runs low 5.60's with a 4.1 toilet @ 2650 lbs. and it's 23 degree head motor. Given my rathers i would run injection over a carb. on alcohol, due the ease of tuning. some people complain about cold starting, i spin the motor over until the oil pressure comes up and if the pump is not mounted higher centerline of the fuel cell, usually the fuel pressue is up by then and it will start easly, if not, give it a shot of gas and the rest of the day it will start just fine without priming.

JMO

Zip.

suicidebomb

03-20-2009, 12:56 PM

X2, Thanks to zip.