rons toilet help

[pintoracer]

im looking for a good starting set up 393w sbf 14.2 comp. vr jr heads (box stock) 650 inch roller in rear engine dragster it has 01/2 pump 30 nozzels and i have several pills from 82 to 110 ive talked to the the guru at rons he will give me no info only wants to sell me a 0 pump i have friends using this exact set up on 355 chevy motors with the 01/2 pump and other poeple using hilborn blown pumps on 468 bbc with rons toilet.maybe i dont get it but if yourpump is a little big why cant you just return the extra fuel back to the engine im not a rich guy just trying to use what i have any ideas?????????

[hammertime]

im looking for a good starting set up 393w sbf 14.2 comp. vr jr heads (box stock) 650 inch roller in rear engine dragster it has 01/2 pump 30 nozzels and i have several pills from 82 to 110 ive talked to the the guru at rons he will give me no info only wants to sell me a 0 pump i have friends using this exact set up on 355 chevy motors with the 01/2 pump and other poeple using hilborn blown pumps on 468 bbc with rons toilet.maybe i dont get it but if yourpump is a little big why cant you just return the extra fuel back to the engine im not a rich guy just trying to use what i have any ideas?????????

First off that guy at rons wanting to sell you a "0" pump is wrong, you'll be fine with the 0 1/2. Was this the rons guru you talked to ? www.killerrons.com if not he is the one you need to talk to. 30 nozzel seems a bit small to me. A good tuning aid is a EGT it will help elminate some of the guessing.

[pintoracer]

yes it was the james monroe guy that everyone speaks so highly of he offered no help at all other than wanting me to spend money i have a egt but i cant seem to get the idle temps up past about 380 i had 32 nozzels in it so i droped them down to 30 trying to get idle temps up if i lean the barrell valve it develops a lean stumble when you whack the throttle and it still milks the hell out of the oil i have a 105 pill in it and am going to the track this sat maybe ill be able to tell better after a full pass to see where i stand egt wise

[hammertime]

yes it was the james monroe guy that everyone speaks so highly of he offered no help at all other than wanting me to spend money i have a egt but i cant seem to get the idle temps up past about 380 i had 32 nozzels in it so i droped them down to 30 trying to get idle temps up if i lean the barrell valve it develops a lean stumble when you whack the throttle and it still milks the hell out of the oil i have a 105 pill in it and am going to the track this sat maybe ill be able to tell better after a full pass to see where i stand egt wise

What % is the barrell valve leaked down to ?

[pintoracer]

we started at 28% but ive leaned it a little from that i think i got it close today idleing around 460 degrees or so its responsive as hell i dont know if the pill is correct ill have to make a pass to see i welcome any other ideas

[hammertime]

you have a pm

[zipper06]

I agree with david you need larger nozzles, i would suggest 36's, i also runa 4.1 toilet with #36's in my 377" chevy, i also donot run a rons pump. Actually i started my leakdown at 25% and backed down to 18% for good response. I wouldn't worry too much about the idle egt temp. you can run an idle bypass and stop the milking. I don't run an idle bypas i just shut the fuel 1/2 way down to warm the engine and open it when i get ready to run, looking for about 1200/1300 on top end.

JMO

Zip.

[pintoracer]

thanks guys im going to a new years race sat ill post the results

[jed5161]

while on subject of rons toilets....i got an issue thats been hurting us all last season. heres what i had (motor ended up dieing due to broken crank). 511 bbc. profiler cnc ported heads. sniper intake. 4.100 toilet. tried both O 1/2 billet and standard black pumps. started with .036 nozzles. leaned it back to .033 due to down track "popping". that fixed that. I never could get the motor to hit the converter hard until i put the small nozzles in it but even after nozzles in it, it still had a hesitation at hit. it would rev to 3500-3700 then hesitate for a split second then up to converter solid at 6200 (no chip). The only way i got it to cleanly go up against the converter was to lean it out on the barrel and it was too much to keep the motor temp to maintain and even keep the engine running at idle. Idle egt's would be 800-900 degrees. We backed the barrel off and just lived with it. I believe we were at 19% leak. Another note is we installed a higher pressure idle poppet inline to try get better fuel atomization and flow better. Which seemed to help out quite a bit itself.

We had this toilet throttle body/barrel valve assembly on two different motors and had the same issue. One engine was in a different car and they ordered a new toilet of the same model with the original setup with had (.036 nozzles, std idle pressure, etc. aka out of the box) and it ran perfect.

Anybody have any ideas or have ran into this problem? I'm leaning towards a barrel valve problem.

[zipper06]

while on subject of rons toilets....i got an issue thats been hurting us all last season. heres what i had (motor ended up dieing due to broken crank). 511 bbc. profiler cnc ported heads. sniper intake. 4.100 toilet. tried both O 1/2 billet and standard black pumps. started with .036 nozzles. leaned it back to .033 due to down track "popping". that fixed that. I never could get the motor to hit the converter hard until i put the small nozzles in it but even after nozzles in it, it still had a hesitation at hit. it would rev to 3500-3700 then hesitate for a split second then up to converter solid at 6200 (no chip). The only way i got it to cleanly go up against the converter was to lean it out on the barrel and it was too much to keep the motor temp to maintain and even keep the engine running at idle. Idle egt's would be 800-900 degrees. We backed the barrel off and just lived with it. I believe we were at 19% leak. Another note is we installed a higher pressure idle poppet inline to try get better fuel atomization and flow better. Which seemed to help out quite a bit itself.

We had this toilet throttle body/barrel valve assembly on two different motors and had the same issue. One engine was in a different car and they ordered a new toilet of the same model with the original setup with had (.036 nozzles, std idle pressure, etc. aka out of the box) and it ran perfect.

Anybody have any ideas or have ran into this problem? I'm leaning towards a barrel valve problem.

I'm thinking that you had a barrel valve leaking by on the first toilet, thats why you couldn't get the adomization with the # 36 nozzles and also why the higher poppet pressure worked better. I run about 8 lbs on the idle poppet spring. My friend has a 55 shoebox with a 396" 23* heads sm/blk weighs 2650 lbs, with (1) 4.1 toilet ron's (0) pump, last time out it ran 5 passes between 5.62 and 5.64 at Twin Cities. He also won that nite. Here is a vid. from a couple weeks earlier, it ran 5.78 slipping and sliding before he got new tires.

JMO

Zip.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1746067768812840303&hl=en

[tylera189]

are you letting it idle with the fuel all the way on. If so that would make the egt's real low. And also milk the oil up. I ran the toilet for the first time last year. And never milked the oil up. Guessing by your EGT's at idle it sounds like you are idling at full fuel. Also I dont want to bash James Monroe, he does know his stuff. But he sold me to big of pump, then sold me all kinds of pills and nozzles to correct it, which it never did. So I called Ron's they agreed with me that the pump was to big, they told me to call James and tell him what we discussed and get him to swap my pump for no charge. Well he got ticked and refused to do that. So i called rons back and they swapped it free of charge. So I set it where they said to and picked up .2 and my EGT's were where they were supposed to be. So in my opinion Rons knows there stuff too. Dont put all your eggs in one basket with James

[hammertime]

while on subject of rons toilets....i got an issue thats been hurting us all last season. heres what i had (motor ended up dieing due to broken crank). 511 bbc. profiler cnc ported heads. sniper intake. 4.100 toilet. tried both O 1/2 billet and standard black pumps. started with .036 nozzles. leaned it back to .033 due to down track "popping". that fixed that. I never could get the motor to hit the converter hard until i put the small nozzles in it but even after nozzles in it, it still had a hesitation at hit. it would rev to 3500-3700 then hesitate for a split second then up to converter solid at 6200 (no chip). The only way i got it to cleanly go up against the converter was to lean it out on the barrel and it was too much to keep the motor temp to maintain and even keep the engine running at idle. Idle egt's would be 800-900 degrees. We backed the barrel off and just lived with it. I believe we were at 19% leak. Another note is we installed a higher pressure idle poppet inline to try get better fuel atomization and flow better. Which seemed to help out quite a bit itself.

We had this toilet throttle body/barrel valve assembly on two different motors and had the same issue. One engine was in a different car and they ordered a new toilet of the same model with the original setup with had (.036 nozzles, std idle pressure, etc. aka out of the box) and it ran perfect.

Anybody have any ideas or have ran into this problem? I'm leaning towards a barrel valve problem.

Did you take the check valve out of the barrel valve ? James does this but Rons does not. Sounds like the issue to me.

[pintoracer]

im pretty much done with james to me hes a guy with his fair share of money and wants more i will try like hell to use the stuff i have i think it will work i know of to many people using pumps that are way to big with no problems

[jed5161]

normally i run enderele bird catchers on all my motors. i wanted to have the tall scoop to get catch air above the roll cage on the dragster. I've ran the toilets before on my old 68 camaro super gas car. Never had any problems with that system either.

I took the check valve out of the barrel when i put the higher psi poppet inline.

and yes the fuels all the way on. as far i know the egts are way high at idle during that situation. Which normally indicated its lean. The way the motor acted it was lean. Hesitation, lean backfiring, water temp gaining too quickly, etc. All my other systems idle temp egt temp would be in the 550-650 range. my high egt after a run would be 1120-1200 on this motor when it did run a clean pass. My 540 liked it about 1000-1100.

One other issue i forgot to mention was it seemed like the first pass of every day, the motor wouldn't get up the converter no matter what the tune up. It would rev to the 3500-3800 and stay there while on the brake. Carried it out to see what it would do once and after it cleaned out (100 ft-120ft out) it took off and ran fine. Lean it out one pill size and it would be fine for the next run. Then the next pass it would want the original pill back it in. It would be fine the rest of the night. Theres time i would be changin pills 4-5 times a day between 3 pill sizes (110, 112, 116)

[scooby389b]

Zip,what size pump do you run?I would use a 0 on his combo.An idle bypass will not work with his b valve as no provisions on early valves.

[scooby389b]

Jed,poppet in Rons bv is just a start aid and is better off removed,Adding one is not nesc. All you did was add a restriction in main bypass return line.

[hammertime]

Hey guys when I get stuck with any injection problem, heck with any problem at all on a car. Scooby (Steve) is the man I go to he is VERY sharp all around and is awesome with injection.


Example 1. A local guy purchased a new toilet for his Camaro 505 if I remember correct, it was slower then his gas carb by a ton and wouldnt come up on the converter. The local "guru" for injection couldnt figure this one out after months of not success figuring this out and spending money. Everyone told him it wasnt the toilet, I told him different and gave him Scoobys phone # within the next few times out it was fixed, fastest the car had ever ran and it was backing up #s all day and night. He was MORE then pleased with the help, and thanks me everytime I see him.

It was a bit beyond my knowledge to help him at the time, but now have a better idea what went wrong. Welcome to the forum Steve !

[scooby389b]

Oh Dave! lol thanks

[pintoracer]

by poppet do you mean the spring behind the pill you have to excuse me as i am dumb

[scooby389b]

no its in return line fitting

[tylera189]

normally i run enderele bird catchers on all my motors. i wanted to have the tall scoop to get catch air above the roll cage on the dragster. I've ran the toilets before on my old 68 camaro super gas car. Never had any problems with that system either.

I took the check valve out of the barrel when i put the higher psi poppet inline.

and yes the fuels all the way on. as far i know the egts are way high at idle during that situation. Which normally indicated its lean. The way the motor acted it was lean. Hesitation, lean backfiring, water temp gaining too quickly, etc. All my other systems idle temp egt temp would be in the 550-650 range. my high egt after a run would be 1120-1200 on this motor when it did run a clean pass. My 540 liked it about 1000-1100.

One other issue i forgot to mention was it seemed like the first pass of every day, the motor wouldn't get up the converter no matter what the tune up. It would rev to the 3500-3800 and stay there while on the brake. Carried it out to see what it would do once and after it cleaned out (100 ft-120ft out) it took off and ran fine. Lean it out one pill size and it would be fine for the next run. Then the next pass it would want the original pill back it in. It would be fine the rest of the night. Theres time i would be changin pills 4-5 times a day between 3 pill sizes (110, 112, 116)

With a toilet your idle EGT should be 750-900, this would be with the fuel half off, you have to find the sweet spot your engine likes. But if your EGT is 550 that is way to fat. And either the fuel is all the way on, which is not right, or your barrel vavle is set wrong. Leak it down and see where its at. . And yes that is lean but not lean enough to hurt anything. I have seen alot of guys idle there toilets at full fuel only to wash the cylinders down, and blame it on the system.

[scooby389b]

Don't know how you can consistantly set your barrel valve and idle with fuel shut off half pulled.Set blade angle and depending on which bv you have will be between 25-28%.Most I have set up idle at 480-520 degrees and do not milk the oil. Finish line temp is best at 1060-1100.Pulling shutoff to heat motor and warm up is all thats needed.

[zipper06]

Zip,what size pump do you run?I would use a 0 on his combo.An idle bypass will not work with his b valve as no provisions on early valves.

I run a Darrel Saucier (0) pump on my toilet bowl darrel has built me a (-1) pump for my 434" stacks injected motor. The idle bypass i was referring to in on my friends 55 chevy shoebox, when he had a 355" motor in it it had a bad stumble about 30 to 50' out so he plumbed in an electric bypass wired into the 3 step and solved the problem it's plumbed in before the highspeed pill body. He now has a 394" motor and he now uses the bypass as a highspeed bypass and it's chipped to come in at 6800. It actually never comes in on 1/8 mi passes only on 1/4 mi runs. It has a .014 pill in it. The car runs low 5.60's at 2650 lbs.

Forgot to mention the Saucier pump has a 3 outlet manifold on it, so it's pretty easy to plumb and electric bypass into it.

Here's a pic. of the bypass if you look closely at the bottom left of the pic. at the drivers side of the water pump

Zip.

http://img28.picoodle.com/img/img28/4/7/18/t_1000716m_ed2443b.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/7/18/f_1000716m_ed2443b.jpg&srv=img28)

[scooby389b]

you were using the electric bypass as a converter helper basically.OK got ya now.have seen a few higher hp small blocks that liked that esp with the older barrel valves as they were a little more restrictive and required a lot more pill that they did not like while on the chip.

[zipper06]

you were using the electric bypass as a converter helper basically.OK got ya now.have seen a few higher hp small blocks that liked that esp with the older barrel valves as they were a little more restrictive and required a lot more pill that they did not like while on the chip.

Yep, I personally donot run a highspeed bypass, in an earlier post i stated that i closed the shutoff 1/2 way just too warm the car up, then it's wide open. My setup likes 18% leakdown and anywhere from .085 to .095 return pill depending on the weather. It seems to like rich, especially on the bottom end. Heck i ran 5 passes one nite at Memphis T&T in 1 hr. 15 min, 100 degree temp. never turned the fan on except about 5 min. in the pits between runs.

Zip.

[scooby389b]

18% on bv seems lean..are you setting at .008-.010 blade opening or blades closed?

[zipper06]

blade closed, actually started at 25%, and backed it down until it was responsive, that with a .100 pill. Then rechecked the leakdown and it came out 18% i then set the blade to .008, it idles at about 1200 rpm with a 106 CL cam. That was the last time i checked it and i have turned it a couple or more flats during the tuning process. In reality i'm not for sure what it's set on right now, it could be higher. I mess with a lot of hilborn stacks injection and i find them to like about 22% i set those bldes at .002, and a few hats, strange but they like about 30% leakdown, don't know why unless it's because the butterfly are so far up from the nozzles.

Zip.

[scooby389b]

see what blade clearance is..prob 7-010.and see what leak is there.I set blade angle first and then bv to 28% on purple/black bvs and 25 on gray...bet we are in same ballpark setting at same blade angle cause as ya open blade up for idle leakdown increases.Hats need more bv because needs more fuel to cover stumble as they have a much bigger plenum..stacks less as they have virtually no plenum.

[zipper06]

I'm pretty sure we are close to the same when it's all said and done, i've got the purple barrel valve on my toilet. It never stumbles or anything, the only thing it's ever done was a highspeed lean pop when i first started running it and had a .125 pill in it, other than that it's like a carberator and easier to run. Maybe i was just lucky with mine, or it's because i've run injected or blown for a lot of yrs., but it just fell into place like it was supposed too.

Zip.

[scooby389b]

do you still have the check ball and spring in the return fitting? That is one of the biggest broblems I see as it will stick and will not return any fuel and will cause that stumble(really its an overrich blubber that dissapears as engine catches up to fuel supply) you saw on that 355 and can due it intermittantly.

[zipper06]

do you still have the check ball and spring in the return fitting? That is one of the biggest broblems I see as it will stick and will not return any fuel and will cause that stumble(really its an overrich blubber that dissapears as engine catches up to fuel supply) you saw on that 355 and can due it intermittantly.

No to either one of the cars, i did have it on mine when i first started running it but pulled it out, when it ran like crap after setting for a while, didn't know for sure if that was the problem but it fixed it. I do have an 8lb spring on the poppet in the return line highspeed pill holder.

Zip.

[scooby389b]

do you still have the check ball and spring in the return fitting? That is one of the biggest broblems I see as it will stick and will not return any fuel and will cause that stumble(really its an overrich blubber that dissapears as engine catches up to fuel supply) you saw on that 355 and can due it intermittantly.

[zipper06]

You got a Rat in it, do you run one or two bowls or the throttle bodys. I'm getting ready to have a nitemare, with my s/blk blown motor, i melted down a piston by not running down nozzles, now i'm going back with down nozzles and i'm sure it's going to take some working thru. I've got the K valve on it. It's Buzzard on top of a 1471 it was fast for a 358" but going back with a 383" motor.

Zip.

[scooby389b]

555 with single terminator..been 7.38@1925lbs on motor,has small 335 dart heads playin with sig pics

[zipper06]

that's quick for a 555, lot's of people make the mistake of going to big on heads and losing velocity, it sounds like you got the right combo.

Zip.

[pintoracer]

0k guys its ugly fat 890 degrees egt is all we got it wont change went from 90 to 112 pill nothing changed slow as hell im spinning the pump way to fast and hence forth i have the wrong damn puleys on it right now im spinning the pump around 60% which i have learned is way to fast with the bigger 01/2 pump i think i would be better of spinning it around 40% and i believe ill put the high speed lean out in it also not to mention feed line is #8 instead of #6 its just all screwed up but i hope to be headed in right direction hell it only went 5.45 at 125 i ran 5.28 at 130 with my carb ohh and i also pulled my hair out HIT ME WITH THE IDEAS thanks

[tylera189]

Don't know how you can consistantly set your barrel valve and idle with fuel shut off half pulled.Set blade angle and depending on which bv you have will be between 25-28%.Most I have set up idle at 480-520 degrees and do not milk the oil. Finish line temp is best at 1060-1100.Pulling shutoff to heat motor and warm up is all thats needed.

I said to idle it at half fuel . not set your barrel valve at half fuel

[scooby389b]

Sorry,thats how I read it!