Starting Issues

[hammertime]

Yesterday while trying to start my car I broke another starter (#3 this year), it also pretty well wasted the flexplate (#3 also). My question is this why am I getting a big kickback when cranking ?
Its a bbc with a terminator that has a primer on it.

So far I am going to do this what do you think ?

Adding a MSD Starter Saver to retard the timing 10 degrees when cranking, I have 0 retard now. This may help ?

Going to buy a new starter that I've used in the past that works great.
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/10001/10002/-1

I have another new flexplate I am going to put on it. A TCI and going to order another spare Jegs Flexplate ($42.00 compaired to $65.00) just in case.
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/60151/10002/-1

I've been told to elminate the ford selnoid and run the wire back to the starter instead ?? Any truth to this helping ?

I checked volts on mine going into it 12.2 coming out 10.6 back to starter.
When I am cranking the motor over without ign on I am 12.2 volts everywhere as soon as I crank its 10 volts untill it starts ?


Before anyone jumps to grounds and powers this has all been checked and grounds been added to block, chassis all 2 gauge. Powdercoating has been taking off and also paint on block.

Battery is a newer Optima Red Top and is good to go

My next solution to all this mess is going back to a carb, this is a common issue with injection but hate to give up on it because its a copy machine right now.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[curtisreed]

David

Is it doing this when it is cold or randomly? Are you on alcohol or gas? Did you change anything in your combination this year? One question I have is why do you run the Ford Solenoid, I.E. what are you trying to isolate or protect with it?

Curtis

[dak697]

I have done the ford solenoid and it seems to work good.

The only thing I might try different is the battery. Borrow a battery (fully charged) and give it a try. (Steal it out of the pick up)The battery might be the issue.

Good luck

[john858]

if you have your timing locked down the timing retard will solve the problem i would think

[hammertime]

David

Is it doing this when it is cold or randomly? Are you on alcohol or gas? Did you change anything in your combination this year? One question I have is why do you run the Ford Solenoid, I.E. what are you trying to isolate or protect with it?

Curtis

It does it when its cold more often but still does it when its warm.
I am on alky, I have a primer on it to start with gas though.

The ford solenoid comes with the k&r kit and is wired with it so I used it, lots of buddies use it with there carbs and have no issues. I am going to bypass it this week just to maybe elminate something on the list of could be.

[hammertime]

I have done the ford solenoid and it seems to work good.

The only thing I might try different is the battery. Borrow a battery (fully charged) and give it a try. (Steal it out of the pick up)The battery might be the issue.

Good luck

Already took the one off the trailer and tried it, same results. thanks

[hammertime]

if you have your timing locked down the timing retard will solve the problem i would think

My thoughts also I know the 25 degree start retard is way to much though, thats why I am thinking 10 would be good.

[sg1586]

[quote=john858]if you have your timing locked down the timing retard will solve the problem i would think

My thoughts also I know the 25 degree start retard is way to much though, thats why I am thinking 10 would be good.[/quote



What msd box are you running???? Get a Digital box and your problems will be gone :D

[gearhead1011]

if you have your timing locked down the timing retard will solve the problem i would think

My thoughts also I know the 25 degree start retard is way to much though, thats why I am thinking 10 would be good.

I would go with the 25* retard. My guess is the timing is fixed at about 35* so you will have about 10* in it for starting. If you uses a 10* retard you're still starting with 25* of timing in it.

[hammertime]

[quote=john858]if you have your timing locked down the timing retard will solve the problem i would think

My thoughts also I know the 25 degree start retard is way to much though, thats why I am thinking 10 would be good.[/quote



What msd box are you running???? Get a Digital box and your problems will be gone :D


7al3 box ... digital should of been on it but I was to stubburn and stuck with the al3 maybe over the winter ??

[hammertime]

if you have your timing locked down the timing retard will solve the problem i would think

My thoughts also I know the 25 degree start retard is way to much though, thats why I am thinking 10 would be good.

I would go with the 25* retard. My guess is the timing is fixed at about 35* so you will have about 10* in it for starting. If you uses a 10* retard you're still starting with 25* of timing in it.

I've tried the 25 start retard its to much out, causing the cyclinders to fire on top of each other it seems.

[us7race]

Too much retard will also cause issue's too. Have you tried to start the motor with a total of 20-25 degrees of timing in it? My little sbc loves 20 of total timing for starting. Just a thought.

[Tod74]

Stupid question....is the cap/ rotor indexed correctly? I'm sure you have checked that just a thought. I guess phased would be a better word than indexed...

[hammertime]

Stupid question....is the cap/ rotor indexed correctly? I'm sure you have checked that just a thought. I guess phased would be a better word than indexed...


Should only need to do that with a crank trigger correct ? If not please explain.

[kwkracing]

For one i would not use that cheap jegs starter on this engine. I have a injected bbc on alcohol i start no problem with a csr starter and 32-35* timing, Never kicked back. Also you might think about going to a better flex plate, one that is thicker.

[hammertime]

For one i would not use that cheap jegs starter on this engine. I have a injected bbc on alcohol i start no problem with a csr starter and 32-35* timing, Never kicked back. Also you might think about going to a better flex plate, one that is thicker.

Only reason I am saying the jegs I have awesome luck on my last 2 cars with that one. I have a Tilton Super Starter now, as for a flexplate. It has broken the JW Wheel already also .. hard to dump $150-200 for a flexplate to watch it break.

[john858]

we've had bad luck out of jeg starters. i'd get a good sfi
flexplate,tilton starter,timing retard & go racing.good luck

[hammertime]

we've had bad luck out of jeg starters. i'd get a good sfi
flexplate,tilton starter,timing retard & go racing.good luck

TCI Fleplate, tilton super starter, and starter saver on the way .. I will know more on friday this week. thanks for the help guys

[johnracer]

[quote=Tod74]Stupid question....is the cap/ rotor indexed correctly? I'm sure you have checked that just a thought. I guess phased would be a better word than indexed...


Should only need to do that with a crank trigger correct ? If not please explain.[/quote
You need to phase the rotor either way. It's just easier with a crank trigger because you can just rotate the distributor to set phasing. If using the dist for the trigger, get a cap-adapt with an adjustable rotor, set the timing, then phase the rotor....

[hammertime]

[quote=Tod74]Stupid question....is the cap/ rotor indexed correctly? I'm sure you have checked that just a thought. I guess phased would be a better word than indexed...


Should only need to do that with a crank trigger correct ? If not please explain.[/quote
You need to phase the rotor either way. It's just easier with a crank trigger because you can just rotate the distributor to set phasing. If using the dist for the trigger, get a cap-adapt with an adjustable rotor, set the timing, then phase the rotor....

How do you suggest phasing it with a regular cap and no hole ? I've heard of people doing so but not sure ??

[johnracer]

Example: Set your timing normally, let's say at 38 deg. Bump it over and align the timing marks to 38 deg on #1 compression stroke. With a small staight edge and a pointed sharpy, make a vertical line on the side of the dist cap and base at the center of #1 post. Remove the cap and align the center of the rotor with the mark you made on the base. Try to be as accurate as possible. Obviously you'll need an adjustable rotor if not using a crank trigger. That's it. Hope this helps,
Johnny

[Tod74]

I put my distributor in with the number one piston exactly at 38 deg before tdc on compresion stroke. I turn the oil pump with a screwdriver to get it to drop in exactly right there...then turn the distributer wherever I need to to get it pointed exactly at the prong on the cap...timing is perfect as soon as I start it.

I don't understand the NEED for an adjustable rotor :?

Once you get the distributer to fall in by turning the oil pump with a screwdriver...the engine is still sitting 38 deg btdc so when you turn the distributer the rotor doesn't move...and since the cap has a locating notch to put it on the distributer the same spot every time you can just turn the body of the distributer until the prong in the cap lines up perfectly with the tip of the rotor.
JMO...works for me. If there is something I'm missing tell me because most of you been doing this longer than me...but I usually don't even need to touch the distributer after I start it ...I still check it though

p.s. obviously this won't work if the advance isn't locked out.

[johnracer]

I see your point. Perhaps "need" wasn't the right term. If the ditributor doesn't require turning to nail the timing you want, then that'll work. But if you have to turn the distributor your rotor phasing will be off. I'm not "The Professor", but I'll do my best to explain.
First are production tolerances. All mass producers have them. Basically the relationship between the reluctor and the distributor shaft, between the distributor and the rotor, and between the distributor and cap, could all be slightly off. Let's assume that each one was off 2 degrees retarded. That's probably an extreme and unlikely example by the way. Now if you set it up the way you decribed, you'll end up moving the distributor to set timing, and the rotor will be out of phase 6 degrees retarded with the post in the cap. To further complicate matters, all of MSD's timing controls, including the 7al3, retard the timing about 4 degrees just by hooking them up, not activating them. That throws your rotor phasing off another 2 degrees retarded for a total of 8.
Now you throw in a 25 degree start retard and your rotor phasing is off another 12.5 degrees for a total of 20.5 degrees retarded. At this point, it might be easier for the spark to jump to the next post instead of the intended one and bang! It kicks back as if the timing was really advanced.
Sorry for the long post, but I couldn't think of a way to explain it any shorter.
Later,Johnny

[hammertime]

Figured out 2 issues this week, the starter on the motor was low torque starter for a lower compression motor. My starter guy said get a new better one so I do got a high torque starter from him, put it in there along with a new tci flexplate. It whips the motor over awesome and has no kickback at all.

Today while racing it started right up everytime with no issues all day, best starting I've ever had with injection started like a carb. I had no idea the starter in there wasnt meant for it, its a starter I've used several times in the past.

I also figured out why the motor does start on the primer, I opened the butterflies on the terminator had my dad hit the primer it shoots a straight stream straight across the intake and down the back to runners. I think this could be apart of why I cant get it to start on the primer without kickback. I need a primer plus spray bar which I will have on there soon.

thank you guys for all the help ! If I have any more issues I will go back to the drawing board with all the input from you.

[Tod74]

Friend of mine runs a terminater and they used to have their primer tapped right into the intake...no spray bar. They just had a solenoid and a flow control valve. worked ok...he does have a spray bar now but the other deal did work.

[MDSCars]

A few thoughts on your problem.
1. Always buy the best starter you can afford. I use the Powermaster
that is recommended for Pro Stock/Comp use. I hated to spend
the big bucks, but now my spare starter is a paperweight.
2. Never...never, buy a cheap flexplate.
3. Since you're using a MSD 7AL-3, make sure you have "zero degree" chips in any of the unused retard positions on the box. When I FINALLY
realized I didn't have them in mine, starter problems went away.

Hope this helps...

[sg1586]

I see your point. Perhaps "need" wasn't the right term. If the ditributor doesn't require turning to nail the timing you want, then that'll work. But if you have to turn the distributor your rotor phasing will be off. I'm not "The Professor", but I'll do my best to explain.
First are production tolerances. All mass producers have them. Basically the relationship between the reluctor and the distributor shaft, between the distributor and the rotor, and between the distributor and cap, could all be slightly off. Let's assume that each one was off 2 degrees retarded. That's probably an extreme and unlikely example by the way. Now if you set it up the way you decribed, you'll end up moving the distributor to set timing, and the rotor will be out of phase 6 degrees retarded with the post in the cap. To further complicate matters, all of MSD's timing controls, including the 7al3, retard the timing about 4 degrees just by hooking them up, not activating them. That throws your rotor phasing off another 2 degrees retarded for a total of 8.
Now you throw in a 25 degree start retard and your rotor phasing is off another 12.5 degrees for a total of 20.5 degrees retarded. At this point, it might be easier for the spark to jump to the next post instead of the intended one and bang! It kicks back as if the timing was really advanced.
Sorry for the long post, but I couldn't think of a way to explain it any shorter.
Later,Johnny



Good explanation Johnny, But the only way to set rotor phase is with a hole in the cap and a white line on the rotor with it running and using a timing lite...

Most of us have an extra cap in out tool box so drill a 1/2 inch hole in it between the coil lug and #1 on the cap. Start it up and hook up your timing lite and see it it's off and you may be surprised how far it is off... :shock: Move the dist till it's right on :D

[johnracer]

I'll do that! I have a spare MSD cap, but the RM 522 I bought this spring came with a Mallory dist so I can't right now. When I replace it I will though......it'd be neat to compare the results with the way I've done it in the past.
Johnny

[hammertime]

A few thoughts on your problem.
1. Always buy the best starter you can afford. I use the Powermaster
that is recommended for Pro Stock/Comp use. I hated to spend
the big bucks, but now my spare starter is a paperweight.
2. Never...never, buy a cheap flexplate.
3. Since you're using a MSD 7AL-3, make sure you have "zero degree" chips in any of the unused retard positions on the box. When I FINALLY
realized I didn't have them in mine, starter problems went away.

Hope this helps...


I wish buying the best starter always worked, I have to pricey Super Tiltons that just down right suck. I buy this "off brand" starter from local guy and it starts awesome. $140.00 out the door for it. The thing he did tell me is take the big name starters apart and take this no name apart you'll see no difference. Been down the road with the good flexplate jw wheel did the samething the TCI cheaper ones did. I agree on the 7al3, the other thing is dont use the start retard on the al3 25 degrees is way to much to pull out.

The starter in this case fixed mine, has been great for a month. I suspected the optima battery to be no good also and I was correct so it got a new Napa Orbital battery this week.

I still do not like the fact that it drags the volts down to 10 when cranking but maybe hooking up the 10 degree starter saver will fix that.

[olds48]

I know what you mean about high $$starters .I had a "Tuff Stuff" starter that I bought for like 100 bucks 5 years ago.It broke,so I bought a Powermaster.Not real high dollar,but $275 is expensive for my budget.POS Powermaster doen't start near as good as my "junkie" starter :evil: .It was bad enough that I put a starter saver on it,just to help out.BTW,those starter savers are sweet!!!Work really well.Just don't let your mag wire(purple and violet cable) get near the output wires on it.Bleed over is pretty bad,unless you got a sheilded cable.Just letting you know :wink:

[duswill]

I had the same problem. I installed a MSD Digital 6 and and to date have not had the problem again.

[482]

Hammertime, just wondering if your problem ever recurred or did the starter fix it permanently ? Mine appears to be doing the same thing while restarting.
It will spin like crazy until I hit the ignition switch then starts to drag.
(Also a Tilton starter)

Thanks

[hammertime]

I've never had a problem sense, I had my tilton gone through again at local starter shop, put it back on and it works ok now, he changed a few things in there. I still say it dont work as good as my cheap starter I got from him.

Check for voltage drop first and once you rule out voltage is not a issue look at the starter.

[482]

Cool ! Thanks
I will check the voltage.
Do you still have a drop in voltage going back
To starter?
One last question, did you end up wiring in the
Starter saver too?

[hammertime]

I do have voltage drop but not much. Your looking for a major drop while cranking, ign on and off back there. I ended up buying a digital ignition and pulling 8 degrees out also. Starter saver would work also, i've used them in the past.

[482]

thanks David !

Got a starter saver on the way. 8)