Latest Chevy Hipo BBC head test

[triniemi]

AFR kicked butt again. Fully CNC ported Dart 335cc didn't make as much power as the AFR 325 with optional CNC Chambers. Everybody else didn't even come close, but their price was also closer to 2000$. AFR heads are about 2500$ with the optional Chambers, Darts are 3600$. Makes me wonder if the additional 1100$ more for full CNC port makes it worth it with any manufacturer?

Also, how long are the chamber be as efficient if they get oil ja rich mixture in them?

[OneBadGMC]

Can someone interpret for me please?

[hammertime]

Can someone interpret for me please?

my thoughts to lol

[bbchevy]

Can someone interpret for me please?
Parts COST MONEY!?
Later
G 8)

[cboggs]

Can someone interpret for me please?

blaa, blaa, . .. .. blaablaa, .. blaa, .. waa, waaa, blaa bla, ..

:lol:

Curtis

[triniemi]

Chevy High Performance June 2008.

502cid, 8,75:1 comp, 245/250 @ 0.050 solid roller, .650 lift, big single plane, 100cfm Holley HP series carb

AFR 325 with optional CNC Chambers, 2500$ = 660hp
Dart 335 Fully CNC ported, 3600$ = 650hp

My point was that Darts costs 1100$ more for 10hp less.

[cboggs]

Chevy High Performance June 2008.

My point was that Darts costs 1100$ more for 10hp less.

and you really trust or believe what you read in these magazines ??

Curtis

[OneBadGMC]

Magazine? LOL Yeah, ok.

Magazine articles are nothing more than paid advertising.

[triniemi]

Ok. Prove me wrong.

[obsessedtruck]

Paid advertising VERY TRUE!!, Only they know how pulls were done on both. Were both heads fully tuned and maxed out, timing,jetting spacers etc..., We don't know it most likly was a paid add by AFR. Thats how the mags work.

[Pwmax]

No, it WAS sponsored by Afr, and Pace. The cylinder heads were also CAREFULLY chosen, so the AFR's looked better. There is a long list of heads I can think of, that weren;t on there, along with tons of "custom" modified heads by any numerous engine or head shop, and, a lot of those heads, with minimal work, could have easily made the most power. Put a real cam in that engine, something in the mid 260 range at .050, with around .700 lift, and bump the compression 2 points to 11.5:1, and you would see the results being much different. Then, the Dart 335's would have taken off, and made considerably more power. Why? Because then, the available cross section, and flow potential of those heads would have been utilized and taken advantage of. Thats why they used that head, to in my opinion, make it look bad, or, better yet, make the AFR head with the cnc chamber, and as cast ports look better. Hey, why buy an expensive Dart fully cnc'd head, when our as cast heads make more power. Dyno's don'y lie!! In this case, the dyno just didn;t tell the complete story.

Magazines guys, are there for one purpose. To make money, and to sell parts for their advertisers, or, the people that pay them, hence, how they make their money. Keep that in mind.

Not to say the AFR's didn;t perform well, they did, so did all the others really. And, your not comparing apples to apples, so, its really a dumb test. heck, you could have run a 18 degree Big Chief head on that short block, and they would have looked terrible in comparison, in the rpm range this test was run at, and with the cam used. People would say, wow, look at that AFR's made more power than even Big Chief heads!! And it would have been likely, they wouldn;t look good at all on that short block. Thats the same with the Pro-1 heads, not utilizing like I said above, the potential horsepower that was available.

Another thing, like I said, numerous heads weren;t used, probably by design, and probably because of magazine space, and time constraints, thats why the article is just something to read, and needs to be taken with a grain of salt, not to mention, that how were the tests done? I doubt they were all that scientific, to make absolutely sure that the running temps were identical, along with a bunch of other factors. Its very possible, there is 20+hp, from just how the tests are conducted. One engine totaly heat soaked, ( The Dart head) the other cooled off ( The AFR), will dramaticaly alter the results. I know for a FACT thats why the guy who won the very first Engine Masters challange won, because they didn;t follow the "rules". Pulled his engine at a much lower temp, than the second place finisher, even though the second place guys engine actualy made more peak horsepower, and more peak lb/ft of tqurge, but, because the wining engine made slightly more ft/lbs below 3000, that added 2 points to his score, and he won. Thats another stupid magazine stunt. That whole engine masters deal. Who, with an engine of that caliber, worry's about the power it makes at 2500? NO ONE. The converter behind something like that will be much higher than that anyhow. And, anyone building an engine like that, who puts a 6500 limit on them? NO ONE. So, its sorta pointless.

Anyhow, now I am rambling, but, that was a stupid article. Let me build the short block, and choose the heads, and I gaurentee the results would be WAAAY different

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

[OneBadGMC]

Ok. Prove me wrong.

Pwmax just did a very good job at it.

You prove you and your magazine are right.

[Tod74]

Ok. Prove me wrong.

You are telling Curtis Boggs to prove You wrong about cylinder heads. LOFL!! :lol:

[triniemi]

Thanks for the reply Pwmax, you explained it really well.

BTW, what head you would recommend for this:

-Drag only, bracket racing, race fuel
-12.5:1 comp (with 119cc chambers), 509cid (4.5x4.0) shortblock
-I want to keep this between below 7400rpm, stock 502cid 1053 crank
-8" converter, 5000+ stallspeed
-Cam that I have is 272/278 @ 0.050, .700lift,
-Big Dart single plane, 1050cfm Dominator

My car has now parts above, Merlin iron heads, 2.19 intake, 1.88 exhaust, ported. Runs 8.9x at 150+ in 2400lb tube chassis car with a Glide, 4.11 or 4.33 gear, 32x14x15 GY. So maybe 700hp at the crank?

I was thinking AFR 345 or Dart 345. Maybe something from Brodix? Any others? Or should I go with the Dart 355/AFR 357 CNC head, is the extra 1000$ worth it? It would be nice to run deeper in the eights (my car has the 8.5 chassis tag) or tame it down to Super Comp with a throttle stop.

[jmarksdragster]

Curtis Boggs/RFD 8)

[bbchevy]

Well,I"M N O EXPERT!!!! But,Heres my Opinion..........?
Brodix BB-2 Extras.Out of the Box,OR?Send them to Curtis!
Put the Box Stockers on 1st,Tune It!Then Send them to Curtis.........!
Later
G 8)

[cboggs]

Ok. Prove me wrong.

OK, .. buy an RFD / Victor 24* head, it'll make more power on
a properly built engine they any other head you can get including
most customs, ..

it's very true about magazines being advertising whores, ..
I buy ads, write articles, .. and can tell you all about the "behind the curtain"
stuff that goes on.

Simple things like they won't publish new product release info if you're
not an advertiser in their magazine. It's mostly BS, ..

Curtis

[olds48]

Curtis Boggs/RFD 8)

:?: :? Is that anything like Mayberry RFD?Rural Freight Delivery :?: Damn,fella comes on here trying to help share some info he thought would save guys money and he got laughed at and ridiculed for reading a magazine????Hmmm.......rude.

[triniemi]

I stayed alive. Could Curtis or any other give me head recommendation for my 509? Looking for most bang for the buck, but also more power. I think aluminum heads alone are going to cut .1 out of my ET if they flow as much as the ported original Merlins. I think they are now with about 320cc intake runner.

[hammertime]

I stayed alive. Could Curtis or any other give me head recommendation for my 509? Looking for most bang for the buck, but also more power. I think aluminum heads alone are going to cut .1 out of my ET if they flow as much as the ported original Merlins. I think they are now with about 320cc intake runner.


Brodix bb2extra

[edvancedengines]

I am not sure wha the deck thickness is with the RFD Edlebrock 24 deg conventional head. I know these are heavy duty though. I also know there is more than enough meat to do a .175 angle mill or more if needed with them. That brings the chambers down to a 102.5 cc size which with my Cutom EEP/BRC nitrous pistons and nitrous clearances ends up with a tad bit above 12.00 -1 compression. It actually measures with a 9 cc piston dome to be 12.22-1 compresion ratio.

I also know the flow sheets that come with the RFD head are real and good measurements with no advertising bull. We checked the head after the angle milling and the intake flow numbers in cfm and pattern came closer to matching Curtis' chart tan I would have thought possible. There was a slight difference in the exhast measurements, but for two benches in two different states to agree about the same heads on intake is totally unreal!

This was designed and built to be driven on the street with maximum nitrous horsepower as # 1 consideration, not N/A Power. It was built to do as much as 1,800 hp on N2o. On nothing but motor with Sunoco 110 we got 951 hp at 6,900 rpm and 786 ft lbs torque at 5,800 rpm . VE was 114% with big carb and carb was pulling 1351 cfm. IF it were designed and built as an all motor N/A Engine, no doubt in my mind the VE would have been more efficient and the Hp numbers would have been up.

Engine is a 622 cu in, Street/Strip/Car Show engine
4.625 x 4.625
Pistons are custom EEP/BRC 9 cc w/ lateral gas ports. wt-675 Gm
C.D. - 1.210
Pins -Hoffman Machine H-13 Tool Steel .180 taper weight 150 gram
Heads RFD EDlebrock - 2.350 In & 1.88 ex CNC
http://www.raceflowdevelopmnt.com
Intake Edlebrock Super Victor port matched only for test. Now w/ ported plenum by RFD. (not yet re-tested)
Rings are Total Seal 1/16 -1/16-.3/16 C-33 AP Stainless top- ductile second Std oil rings
Rods are GRP Pro- 5300 6.660
Lifters .904 - special Us Gear and Tool sold by Bullet/Ultradyne pressure fed rollers.

Cam design EEP/LSM
282 in @.050
304 ex @ .050
115 Lobe Separation
Cam lobes intake - .470
Cam lobes ex - .470
Quench/squish - .075


Had dyno problems with engine so now going back on dyno again with ported intake and problems solved. Horepower N/A ?? Who knows.

I know this. possibility of 1,000 or more Hp N/A with conventional heads if built as N/A. at 12.00-1 compression. At 11.00-1 compression this could be a 92-93 octane pump gas driver.

RFD Edlebrock Victor 24 Deg Heads ROCK
Thanks Curtis Boggs!

www.raceflowdevelopment.com

[Pwmax]

Triniemi, Lots of Heads for a 509 would be good. I have built numerous bracket style 509's that make 850ish hp with Pro-1 325's that I have ported. I will jump on the Victor band wagon, you could even use a mildly done up 340cc version from Edelbrock. No need for custom cnc work. With a revised valve job, and some detail work, those heads will make 900+hp without being crazy on cam, compression etc. Maybe not on a 509, but, that 850 number would be easy enough. I think 850hp in that chassis, would scream. The newer Platinumn version of that 325 head, is pretty good. With moderate work, and a good valve job, 400+ cfm in a usable lift range is easy enough. I had one pump gas 496 make 780 hp with a set done up, with not all that wild a cam, and that was a 2.25 intake valve. They have potential, and, Curtis isn;t the only guy out there that can make power.

There are other heads out there that make power. Last year, on a tired short block, I did a set of Canfield 350's, with what I consider a bracket race cam, the engine was for a Super Street Chevelle, 10.90 index, and a bracket car. 580 cubic inch, under .800 lift, 14:1, a 1050 carb, that was totaly choking the engine, used primarily for response with the throttle stop, The Canfield 350 heads I ported, did a good valve job, with 2.325 intake valves, they moved 438cfm at .800, 441 at .900, and it was still a 45 degree seat, The port volume, ended up at about 375cc, after the ports were sized correctly for the application. The engine made 950hp and 785 ft/lbs. This was not set on kill, spun less than 7400 rpm, and was brutal.

The engine dominated a local heads up naturaly aspirated "real Street" type class. In complete street trim, dot tires, exhaust, 3600_ pounds, power glide, 4.10 gears, using a msd digital 7 to kill power out of the hole, to hook it, it still went low 9.40's high 9.30's at 144+, in 90+ degree heat. Make it 622 inches, and give me a real cam, and that thing would make some real steam. Those heads are actualy in Sweden now, going on a Pro-Charged engine and should run real well.

So, to answer your question, there are numerous heads that would work. Probably the best bang for the buck, would be mildly done Pro-1's, or the Edelbrock Victor 340cc, with some detail work.

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

[cboggs]

They have potential, and, Curtis isn;t the only guy out there that can make power.




Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

Frank, I'd be careful throwing rocks, you don't have nearly
the experience I do, ..

RFD victor's typically make 1050 - 1080 from several of
my engine builder customers, .. on basic 565-582 bracket builds with single
carb and around .800" lift.

Curtis

[cboggs]

I stayed alive. Could Curtis or any other give me head recommendation for my 509? Looking for most bang for the buck, but also more power. I think aluminum heads alone are going to cut .1 out of my ET if they flow as much as the ported original Merlins. I think they are now with about 320cc intake runner.


Brodix bb2extra

That is always a damn good working head, .. doesn't flow well on the bench
and really doesn't "look" that good on the numbers but always
posts great power and on track performance, . .

I't would be at the top of my list for a 498 - 502 etc.

get it with at least the cnc chamber option.

I'm out, ..

Curtis

[OneBadGMC]

I stayed alive. Could Curtis or any other give me head recommendation for my 509? Looking for most bang for the buck, but also more power. I think aluminum heads alone are going to cut .1 out of my ET if they flow as much as the ported original Merlins. I think they are now with about 320cc intake runner.

Maybe, maybe not. Aluminum heads dissipate heat at a much faster rate. Unless you up the compression, you may not make any more power, and in fact, could make less.

[olds48]

I stayed alive. Could Curtis or any other give me head recommendation for my 509? Looking for most bang for the buck, but also more power. I think aluminum heads alone are going to cut .1 out of my ET if they flow as much as the ported original Merlins. I think they are now with about 320cc intake runner.

Maybe, maybe not. Aluminum heads dissipate heat at a much faster rate. Unless you up the compression, you may not make any more power, and in fact, could make less.

Actually aluminum is a heat sink and it does not give up heat very well at all.Iron dissapates heat better than aluminum.Go fire up two motors,one with iron heads and the other with aluminum,shut them off after they are warm and come back in 10 minutes.You will see which it still hotter.