23 deg heads

[ima400]

hi guys what is the best 23 deg head on the market , i have a 414 cui sbc that makes 675 hp with a set of afr227cc heads on it , i would like to know your opinion .
cheers CHRIS

[hammertime]

Best 23 Degree Head that uses standard componets is the AFR 227's
They actually can be made better with some port work. I had Rons Porting port a set of the fully cnc'd from afr heads worth 2 tenths on my combo.

IMO The best head 23 degree is All Pro but if I remember correct it takes special stuff to use these heads. http://www.allproheads.com/

[SST4530]

I agree the 227's are the best 23 deg head. I also have them on my 409, you can have more work done to them and they will flow about 370 cfm on the intake. Any more than that and you need some 18 deg stuff.
8)

[cncmotorsports]

You have the best heads right now, as long as they are the eliminator series.
They might not make the most peak power, but what we see on the dyno is they make the best horsepower and torque averages threw the rpm band.

[ima400]

ok , im from australia , who could achive figures like that & what would that port job cost . ?

what would a decent set of 18deg heads cost & what sort of numbers would they go ?

any advice would be apreciated im just trying to work out if its worth the money to change heads , compaird to the horse power gain .

cheers chris

[hammertime]

Depends who you have port them I've paid locals $300-500 and they do decent work, but have paid $1200 and seen awesome work from it.

There is a lot more to that change then just going to 18* heads, pistons,headers,intake,rockers,. If you want to spend the money I'd think you be better off with some 15 degree heads.

How much are you looking to gain ?

[Pwmax]

I will respectfully disagree. The best head, dollar for dollar, is my ported version of the Dart Platinumn 230, as far as standard port 23 degree heads go. On a stout 414 drag motor, they would make more power.

Hammertime, here is some food for thought. YOu have got decent work, from locals, paying around $500, and as you describe awesome work, by sending them off, and paying $1200. Have you ever talked to the local guy, about his awesome work? Its possible, they don;t fully understand all the dynamics, and do just the basics, and charge $500, knowing, that minor work will improve it. Its funny to me, that local guys to me, are willing to spend that $500-$750 amount for porting, but, when I mention what I can actualy do to the heads, obviously for more money, they won;t do it. But, they will send them off, because in their mind, that guy has a big name, or has solicited himself to death on internet forumns, and has a "name", so he must be better. But, when its all said and done, my customers are beating them at the track .Then, do to the beauty of the internet, I get guys that find me, and send me their heads, and let me have creative freedom with them, and, low and behold, they are described as awesome. I do have my fair share of local guys, that do let me get creative, and, the comments on their engines, and how their cars runs is usualy, "What heads are those?" no way, they can;t run that good, they are just old Track1's, or some old Pro-1's, or even some old Edelbrock Performer Rpm's. Its stamped right in the front. Or some old AFR 190's, as thats on the front too. I can tell you more storied than I count, how guys get SO mad, when they get beat, by someone that has some heads that aren;t supposed to run fast, especially as fast as them, because of what heads they have, compared to some "old" Performer rpm's. But, they do, and beat them. I get great personal satisfaction from that. Depending on what a guy is trying to do, its cost effective in many many cases, to midify your existing heads, if they are half way decent to start. If your trying to win a all out heads up class, well, then, a set of heavily worked Perf. Rpm's wouldn;t be the best bet, and I would know that, and then stear him in the right dircetion to the correct head, that would give him a chance, I am not going to BS the guy, to make the money, for him to be mad, and bad mouth me. I want the guy to be fast, if I work on it.

My point is, most heads, with the right work, can make killer power. I prove that to guys all the time. You have a set of this or thats, they can be improved, I gaurentee you. Welding, sleeving, epoxy, bigger valves, etc, can do some amazing things, and, it usualy costs less than new heads. And even if it is a bit more, when its all done, I gaurenttee, the totaly modified head, will trounce a generic cnc out of the box head. I personaly, and am not the only one, don;t care much for the AFR heads. their port designs, work alright, but, definately respond to work. On another sight, I seen where tony mamo, was telling a guy, that a much smaller head, would be better for his already under-headed engine, a stout 406, that it would be more streetable? Can anyone define streetable? More part throttle, off idle tq perhaps, at 1500? Who fricken cares!!. Again, that guy, has pre platinumn Pro-1 215's, un-ported, and he describes the thing as an absolute tq monster. Would putting a head thats 20cc smaller, be a good move, when he wants more hp up top? No. He would be VERY disapointed, when the car ran no faster, or slower likely. $500 dollars worth of work on the heads he has, I gaurentee, would make more power, without loosing any tq, than the 195cc head. Anyhow

For ima400, you already have a good canvas to start with, you would be smart to work what you already have. Again, with creative porting, and modifications, you would be amazed. Its possible to make 750+hp, with what you already have. If you bought the Eliminator 227's, how much power do you think you would gain? You would be very disapointed with the gain. It would be very small, for the money you spent. However, spending half that amount, on the heads you have, would make a MUCh bigger difference. To the tune of 50-75 or more hp.

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

[hammertime]

Frank, my locals guys for $500 were giving me there best work IMO It really did show on the track with having a bigger name shop do them. I am not saying you wouldnt do a good job on heads for your locals. Just the local talent on heads for me isnt the best, for me to send them out is a better deal to gain more power.

Case in point you like the Dart Plat. 230, I have good friend that live right down the road who has them on his 406, local guy did some port work to them he told him how he opened them up and what not and they did flow a little better but still I didnt think it should run like it should. He took it to another builder further away and gained 75hp by letting him work on them some more.

[cncmotorsports]

I do agree, with some port work the dart heads perform very well, we take the 215 pro 1 heads with our full port job we get them to flow over 315cfm at .600 on our flow bench.
But for out of the box heads, AFR heads are still on the top of the list for the head to buy.
Chevy High performance has proved this for how many years now with there independent testing.

[altune]

I have been in the hunt for the best heads for the buck and found that there are a bunch. It's true some magic can be done with so called lesser heads.
Allpro's seem to have the best flow, but as you said it is not all about flow numbers.
For your best bet I think, go with 18 degree heads, Self racing has a set of Clone oval port brodix that fully assembled go for $3500.00
intake flow at .700 is 420 cfm. pretty impressive. On a pretty stout 427 block they make over 930 hp.
I would say, well worth the money.

[SST4530]

I've got Kevin Self working on my 227's as we speak. We'll se what the dyno pull says afterward. :wink:

One of the biggest misconceptions I here everyone talking about is big flow numbers. Seems to me that equally important is the velocity of air being flowed that's most critical, any thoughts on that?

If you look at the flow numbers from a set of AFR 215 raised port and the 227's. The 215's have higher flow numbers out of the box, even though the port volume is smaller. This tells me the velocity of air being moved must be greater as well. This should translate into more torque. Bigger ain't always better.

[ima400]

im looking for value for my money .if i could get a set of 23deg heads on my 414 to make around 750 hp i would be raped . because as someone els said 18 or 15 deg set up ia a whole new top end . thannks foe your input guys , the only thing thats is hard for me is the distance from me to you . dont get me wrong to buy heads & get them ported then freight isn't a drama its the job if its not right i cant jump in the car & sort it out .
cheers chris

[edvancedengines]

This guy I can feel comfortable with recommending and I also put my money where my mouth is by buying his stuff and sending him stuff to do. Honest and will do what he says.
www.raceflowdevelopment.com

His brand new CNC 18 0r 15 deg heads are very good right when you get them. He buys semi-bare bastings unported from EDlebrock and then installs his own port design into them.

AS far as out of the box bigger heads I too like the AFR 227 or the Canfield 220. AFR can use stud rockers though.

Frank at Advanced who is in this thread also has a good reputation so you can pretty much be asured he will also do you right.

Do not go by anything BRodix is advertising as anything near what thier heads actually do. They lie.

I just had two examples of ther trick CNC Heads in my shop and both were very miserable compared to advertised. The best most expensive BB Chevy head they sell is advertised at 571 cfm. You will not find one cylinder head guy in the country who has ever gotten even close to what they are claiming on their benches. Brodix says the head is flowed at 25 inches and that is conveted to 28 inches on that head. Bull!. Out of three different flow benches no one could get it to pull as much as 530 cfm. The other fine example is a new CNC 15 degree head That Weld TECH was supposed to put an awsum port job on before the sale. Advertised at 370 cfm and in reality barely a 350 cfm. I sent those to Curtis last week to get him to wake them up. Brand new heads should do reasonably near what they advertise. Bridix does not come close. Not only that the 15 degree head exhaust. stopped pulling at .600 lift and just held it up to 1 inch. Neither of these two heads were cheap.

Brodix makes a good casting but lies big time about the flow.

Ed

[Pwmax]

Hammertime, thats what I figured, for that $500, you were getting their best work. It would be like my partner, he can port heads, and is a very skilled machiniest, and one of the most mechanicaly inclined guys I have ever met, but, he just doesn;t get into porting.

As far as flow numbers being advertised, I agree with Ed, most are very happy. Sometimes by a lot. Flow benches do vary, and some guys just don;t get that. Mine, from what I have seen localy, is the most conservative. Probably because I am the most honest, lol. Lets be honest, flow numbers sell your work, and heads, always has, probably always will. Although, some of the good from these forumns, is that some guys, are starting to understand how the other dynamics play into it, and, that flow benches do vary. And to be truthful, It really doesn;t matter what the number that the head modifiers bench reads, if he is using the bench for its intended purpose, which is to measure a change of the actual head he is working on. Thats all its for. To measure a change accurately. Not to use as a marketing tool to sell heads. Its also used to measure velocity profiles, stick little flow devices into the port, to find turbulence, and other problems. But, it has gotten so competitive, that, we will just say sharp individuals, have recognized the fact guys buy heads based on flow numbers, and, will maybe "exagerate" them, to make their heads look better. If they are ever called on it, they say something like, well, on our bench it did that, which could be totaly true, or, that was with the prototype port, and, in production, some may be lost, so, some varience could be there. Or, they could use weather differences etc. Or, they say, just bolt it on, and run it. It will run. And in a lot of cases, it does. But, they used dishonesty, to sell you the head. Anyhow, I am rambling.

Velocity was mentioned above. And, that is a very important, key to having the right head. It is also the most confused dynamic in heads. To much is probably worse, than slighty to slow. It absolutely is worst, if your trying to make higher rpm horsepower. Its also something that has to be comprimised, and is used to tune a port to a given combination of engine size, and the desired power band. There is no one correct velocity, for every engine or head. How that correlates, is expierience, from testing, and trial and error. There are some formulas out there, that help you get in the ball park, but, its still an application thing. No easy, cut in stone answer.

As far as the eliminator heads, I have yet to see any, but, from what I have heard and read, from some sharp guys, they have "issues". And its velocity related. Lots of guys sending them back, to be "fixed". But, the problem there is, for a generic port, its hard to match it for every application. SO, there has to be a comprimise. It will work on a lot of application,s and, more than likely, isn;t perfect for any of them. Although, from what I have read as the issues, they are leaving power on the table. One thing you have to realize, with velocity, the more air, thru a given port, the higher the velocity will be. In a lot of cases, guys shoot for the most flow thru the smallest port. In many cases, that theory, doesn;t work. You end up with smoking fast velocity, which, in theory is good, but, doesn;t always work. Its back to that balancing act, and comprimise, and understanding, what the correct airspeed is for the application. Its hard to explain. But, like is always said, velocity is key. But, how you take that, is where the difference comes. Is it, the most possible velocity? No, its the correct velocity for the given application. And, then, figuring out, what that velocity is for what your trying to do. Flow numbers, because of the wide range of varience from bench to bench, aren;t the asnwer. Anyhow, sorry to ramble

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com