Pre-Lube/Oil Accumulators [Archive]

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davebat

11-14-2007, 05:37 PM

I recently purchased a pre-lube oil system much like Moroso's oil accumulator. One of the biggest differences is the one I have has an electronic servo valve instead of a manual valve found on Moroso's accumulator.
I got the system to prevent dry start-up wear, after doing a great deal of reading on the issue. But soon after buying it, I realized that I can use it as an accumulator during racing (circle track) by leaving the valve open. The theory is that at times of severe Gs, if I momentarily lost oil pressure, the accumulator cylinder would supply the oil (or take up the slack of possible oil sump starvation).
Wondering if my theory is sound, if any of you have experience with a pre-lube/accumulator oil system, I'd love to hear any input. My cylinder has a 1 1/2 qt capacity and was designed to open the valve prior to start-up to release the 60lbs or so of stored oil and pressure to lube the engine at start-up. Suppose to shut the valve after sufficient pressure refills the accumulator.

curtisreed

11-15-2007, 05:20 AM

That is exactly how it will work. I have one on my car (drags) so if oil gets away from the pickup when I stop it keeps pressure up. I also use it as a preluber. Me and the two other guys I race with all use them and they work great. No more knicked up bearings on short shutdown tracks.

Curtis

billhendren

11-15-2007, 05:43 AM

Don't use them on circle track cars other than for pre lube.If your pan runs dry and the accumulator starts pumping oil into the engine your oil pressure warning light wont come on.your oil pump pumps air as good as it pumps oil and what your bearings are seeing is a mixture of air and oil. this will cause bearing failure and you wont see it coming because the warning light never came on. We have seen this happen over 100 times when racers have there oil light flash on in the corners.instead of fixing the supply problem they believe the B.S. that moroso advertises and bolt on an accumulator.result no more oil light in the corner and rod out the side.Bill

curtisreed

11-15-2007, 07:00 AM

Bill,
Why can't the oil light be set to something like 35lbs? You would still have oil from the accumulator and be able to get shut off. Oil and air for a short time is still better than air only for that same amount of time. I'm not doubting what you have seen just something to ponder.

Curtis

gdmii

11-15-2007, 10:38 AM

davebat

11-15-2007, 11:11 AM

Never thought about the accumulator appeasing the warning light, something to think on.
Suppose the best way is to make sure that supply problems are addressed and working fine, then use the accumulator for backup.
Happy just to have the thing taking care of dry startup, anything else is a plus I guess.

edvancedengines

11-15-2007, 11:47 AM

I like them for drag and for street.
I am not fond of any of the Moroso stolen idea products though. Rick Moroso and I had a big round and round about that a few months ago.

Still, I guess using thier's is better than not using any. Canton is the company that came out with the Accusump Oil Accumalator for performance use, and that is what I prefer.

They both work the same way on the same priinciple though. I have only had one customer have a failure issue with one of them. That is becuase they had it on their car, but had the thing not in use, so it did them no good, when they lost oil pressure with a busted oil pan. Might not have done them any good anyway though, because that pan was busted into the oil pump.

There is an initial oil charging process to be done at the first install. If you buy the remote electric solenoid valve life is much easier.

Turn ignition switch on wait a few seconds before cranking, enjoy seeing your oil pressure guage move with oil pressure before even rotating the engine. Even better is if you are also pre-heating the oil ith an oil heater before starting it.

When the engine starts, the Accumalator is re-filled with fresh oil and pressure of what is in the engine. Oil is not circulated through the accumulator. Oil with pressure remains inside unless your engine's oil pressure goes below the pressure where the release valve is calibrated to open. Then the valve opens and flods the lube system with either 1 1/2 qts or 3 qts of oil under pressure one time. When oil pump again pumps oil, the Accumulator gets re-filled. If oil pump pumps no more oil, that is it. If Accumulator is filled again, when you shut off ignition you have fresh oil supply under pressure once again stored for pre-start pre-lube.

I believe that only the Canton has the different pressure calibrated release valves. Not sure.

Ed

billhendren

11-15-2007, 02:14 PM

davebat

11-15-2007, 03:59 PM

I didn't get the Moroso, feel good about that. The one I got is sold as a pre-lube system, not accumulator. http://www.autoenginelube.com/ , This guy agreed to sponsor me for a significantly reduced purchase price.
And as far as circle track, the point where we usually are starved for oil is just as you get off the throttle, slam the brakes and dive into the corner. The 7,000 rpm at the end of the straight away has all the oil on the topside and the G forces take away what was left for a very short period. Good oil pressure coming out of the corner, doesn't take long for the pan to recover the oil it needs coming out of the corner. So it's kinda like what you were explaining about the dragsters and the short track.
Do you know how I can get ahold of an adjustable release valve? I think that would be a great addition to my system. Even if you can guide me to a web site that would carry that system you have, maybe I can just order the valve.
I'm just now starting to put one of my engines together, so it'll be a bit before I can try it out. And by the way, building two 400s and I have a question about the steam holes for anyone that knows about them. I'll post that in a new thread.
Thanks, love hearing from all you seasoned car guys.

curtisreed

11-15-2007, 04:21 PM

Dave,
What I am using is very similar to the one you posted. Doesn't your system have an electric valve on the bottom? That is all that this one uses.

http://www.masterlube.net/

Bill,

thanks for the explanation. Just showed my ignorance of that type of racing and I appreciate your insight and experience, even though you were answering George.

Curtis

davebat

11-15-2007, 04:28 PM

Yes, has the electric valve to open/close the system. But, maybe I got confused, thought there was a different valve that someone was talking about that released with oil pressure (like if the pressure dropped below XX lbs, then it would open).
But, going back to re-read....LOL OLD AGE!

davebat

11-15-2007, 04:35 PM

Oil with pressure remains inside unless your engine's oil pressure goes below the pressure where the release valve is calibrated to open. Then the valve opens and flods the lube system with either 1 1/2 qts or 3 qts of oil under pressure one time. When oil pump again pumps oil, the Accumulator gets re-filled. If oil pump pumps no more oil, that is it. If Accumulator is filled again, when you shut off ignition you have fresh oil supply under pressure once again stored for pre-start pre-lube.

I believe that only the Canton has the different pressure calibrated release valves. Not sure.

Ed

Ah ha! I did read about the different type valve here.
Do yous have a place were I can find a pressure calibrated release valve? I would use the main electric sylinoid for prelube and turn the system on/off. then be able to use the calibrated release valve? Hmm, gonna have to think about that.

gdmii

11-15-2007, 04:43 PM

George
It would be nice to have that pressure differential but in the real world as soon as the pump picks up air the pressure drops in the accusump and in a few seconds is equal to whatever the pump is putting out. In a drag car this isn't to much of a problem because most oil pressure problems are when letting off.
In a circle track application oil pressure problems occur just as the driver pitches the car into the turn and plants his foot in the throttle,the accusump and pump soon equalize in pressure and during the time in the corner and coming off the corner the engine is fed oil and air. as the car hits the straight away the pump picks up oil and starts refiling the accusump as well as raising the oil pressure back up. Bill

Hi Bill,

So the problem with the circle track is refilling the accumulator at a time when you need the pressure to the motor?? I thought the Canton systems had pressure switches that only let the system discharge when system pressure fell below the set point and then recharge when system pressure was above the set point. It would make sense the way you explained it if there was no restriction on when the accumulator refilled. Thanks for setting me straight.

George

billhendren

11-16-2007, 06:50 AM

And as far as circle track, the point where we usually are starved for oil is just as you get off the throttle, slam the brakes and dive into the corner. The 7,000 rpm at the end of the straight away has all the oil on the topside and the G forces take away what was left for a very short period. Good oil pressure coming out of the corner, doesn't take long for the pan to recover the oil it needs coming out of the corner.

If you don't have your blocks together yet you can fix your problem and not need any accumulator.
Grind the rear oil return hole on the passenger side toward the dist bore until the dist bore is 3/16 thick,grind to the front until you get to outer part of the cylinder wall,grind to the outside of the block the same amount.in the rear grind all the way to the back bulkhead plus about 1/8 "
This will give you a return hole that is almost three times stock. now repeat this on the drivers side hole.
Thread all the center holes down the valley 1/4 pipe. get some 1/4 pipe x 1.00 brass nipples and screw into the holes. DO NOT buy after market aluminum or steel nipples,the idea is to have a big vent hole and the brass nipples are the thinest wall.
Using these modifications we haven't run restrictors in any wet sump engine for over 10 years. we have absolutely no oil pressure problems entering or through the corners.Bill

edvancedengines

11-16-2007, 09:38 AM

I think I see now what is going on.

Looks like there are several different Original Sources, just like Moroso for the Original Accusump Oil Accumalator. ;)

None in my opion except Canton is the original but who knows.

Here is thier links and some information about their diferrent valves.

Ed

http://www.accusump.com/

http://www.accusump.com/acc_products/acc_units.html

http://www.accusump.com/acc_products/acc_valves.html

Our E.P.C. valving is ideal for those looking for the convenience of an electric valve and the fast refill rate required in racing applications. The pressure control system keeps the electric valve in the off position during times of normal oil pressure. With the valve in the off position the Accusump is able to quickly regain oil pressure after discharge, thus being ready for the next oil surge. When the engine's oil pressure drops below a predetermined level the valve opens and releases the stored oil in to the system.
==============================================

NOTE:
============================
Electric Pressure Control Valving

E.P.C. Valving (#24-271, 24-273, 24-275)

Our E.P.C. valving has the convenience of an electric valve and the rapid refill rate of a manual valve. The E.P.C. valving allows the Accusump to quickly charge with oil when the engine's oil pressure is above a predetermined level and discharge when the engine's oil pressure drops below that level.

Comes with an electric valve, regulator, toggle switch, wire, terminals, and a pipe nipple.

Part #:'s
24-271 E.P.C. valve kit for a discharge of 20-25 PSI
24-271K to refit a standard #24-270 to a #24-271
24-273 E.P.C. valve kit for a discharge of 35-40 PSI
24-273K to refit a standard #24-270 to a #24-273
24-275 E.P.C. valve kit for a discharge of 55-60 PSI
24-273K to refit a standard #24-270 to a #24-275

Click Here To Purchase A Valve !

Concerned about which EPC Valve to use?

=======================
What E.P.C. Valve Pressure Setting Do I Need?

The Accusump E.P.C Valve is offered at three different pressure settings. Each valve is designed to allow the Accusump to recharge when the engine's pressure is above the pressure setting and to discharge when it is below.

When choosing the pressure setting that is right for your application it is important to consider you engine's oil pressure during normal conditions. You will want to choose an E.P.C valve setting that is below that normal engine pressure. This way when your engine is running normally the valve will allow your Accusump to accumulate oil pressure. Then when you engine drops below its normal pressure and the valve's pressure setting it will discharge its accumulated oil in the Accusump. If unsure of your engine's pressure it is best to choose the E.P.C valve with the lowest rating, the 20-25 psi valve.

=============================================
For other applications an electric valve can simplify it's use. They are ideal when used in applications where it is difficult to access a manual valve lever or to plumb the Accusump remotely like in a 'daily driver', boat, or an RV. This electric valve can be opened and closed from a remote dash-mounted switch or it can be wired directly into the ignition so it will open and close automatically when the ignition is in the 'on' or the 'off' position.

[

doubler

11-23-2007, 11:18 PM

Looks like you can just use the standard electronic valve for street strip. P/N 24-270. Getting ready to buy one soon. Found a source on ebay if anyone else is looking for a decent price on these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Canton-3-Quart-Accusump-Oil-Accumulator-Pre-Oiler-Qt_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ38657QQihZ001QQitemZ 110194082656QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Note: The refill rates on the electric valves are suitable and recommended for Street and Drag Strip use. On Circle Track and Road Course applications where quick refill rates are required, we recommend our E.P.C valve or our manual valve listed below.

E.P.C. Valving (#24-271, 24-273, 24-275)

edvancedengines

11-24-2007, 01:40 AM

This price does look cheap.

I suggest to contact Canton to verify if this is an authorized seller before making a buy.

I verified his only recent negative feedbacks they would not keep me from buying from this seller as they show.

This TRE is in no way connected with TRE in Tennesee.

Ed

cepx111

11-24-2007, 01:48 AM

Let me get this straight, thats 169.99 plus shipping for the actual accumulator which they so generously throw in the gauge with.
PLUS,
Another 149.99 for the valve kit and another 16.99 for the bracket kit.

I'm getting that funny Ala Carte feeling at a fancy steak joint when I order a baked potato.
Seems kinda high for basically a double acting hydralic cylinder minus the ram and, a solenoid, pressure switch and some tubing.

Here's alink to a site I found the valve kit(103.68) cheaper, but the mounting brackets (18.03) and cylinder (184.83) higher,
go figure.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/accusump.htm
><Cp

doubler

11-24-2007, 10:23 AM

Yeah, you have to piece these together. You don't get the gauge with this either. It's 37 bucks more or so. Also the E.PC. (pressure valve) are like 50 bucks more than the standard Electronic switch which should be fine for drag cars or at least that is what Canton says. Here is another link that has more pricing, either way you look at it the price is going to add up to around 300 or more by the time you get everything. Could just get the manual vavle but having hot oil in the car next to you doens't seem like a good idea to me. I can just see that cylinder having a leak and spraying oil all over, not a pretty site...

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_cat_id=102,51,363&action=category

davebat

11-25-2007, 07:43 PM

The system that I got is very good quality, generic type parts. Using this as the base system, depending on what you really want to use this for (accumulator or pre-lube), I would recommend it. It came with the gauge and electric valve, a lot of hardware, different plumbing connections and hose.
Probably the best deal out there. Haven't finished my engine builds yet, so I haven't tried it yet. I think he's selling them for 199.00, I made a sponsorship deal with our raceteam so I got mine for a fraction of that, but a great deal for two hundred bucks. Oh, and it came with an excellent mounting kit.
http://www.autoenginelube.com/

davebat

11-25-2007, 08:03 PM

DOUBLER, just curious, are you with Canton? At first sounded like you were shopping for one and sharing info, then I got the impression you were selling them.

edvancedengines

11-26-2007, 07:59 AM

Doubler is a customer of mine that is not employed in the automotive industry at all. He has heard me rant and rave about getting the Canton over the Moroso becuase Canton was the Originator of bringing this concept into the performance market. So he has been searing out the Canton Systems.

His only purpose of the post was trying to help those that would be interested in the deal he found.

He is pretty sharp but is not here trying to sell products for anyone as a part of his job.

Ed

doubler

11-27-2007, 08:32 PM

Thanks Ed, dont' know about the sharp part, but yes I am going to order one soon and that looks like the best deal out there. And have been told to get the Canton by someone :) Just sharing...if anyone finds a better deal please post