Beware of Lowdown54 (Tony Eden)

[crossram1969]

I have not been on the site for a long time. I am just getting back and I noticed Tony Eden(Lowdown is a very fitting description) is a member here and I wanted to let you guys know a couple of years ago he sold a car to me that was supposed to be a numbers matching X77. Ended up, cowl tag had been changed and all 3 VIN numbers. There is a bench warrant for him if he is ever picked up in my state. He told me buyer beware. That was nice of him. I didn't feel like going through a lengthy out of state court battle because I believe what comes around goes around. He will get his someday.

[mrgasser55]

this guy is a liar there has never been any proof of any wrong doing on my part,i bought the car off a friend of mine that got if off of someone he knew. it was a project car,all #,s matched the vin tag,motor,trany,and rear,all matched.if anybody would like to talk to me about this matter I would be than happy to discuss it,thanks tony,740-6760-1870

[mrgasser55]

sorry guy,s the # is 740-676-1870,thanks tony

[crossram1969]

Sure the trans VIN matched the VIN on the car. The VIN's had all been changed. The motor did not match. That block found its way to the original car in NJ, a X33 fathom green belonging to a guy on Team Camaro web site. Jerry McNeish for you guys that now 1st gen camaros, know who he is. He has published facts books on 1st gen Z's and big block camaros. He got involved and it is documented that the car is a total clone, all VIN numbers, trim tag, trans came from a real X77 car. The only problem was they didn't belong to this car. You guys all know that a thief would not admit to any wrong doing. Have a good day Tony, you know you committed fraud.

[mrgasser55]

this is going to be my last post on this matter,because this guy don,t deserve any more of my time.he had all the time in the world to check this car out before he bought it,i never did anything wrong!!! racingjunk is a good website,and a good place to sell and buy,but it,s to bad any jerk can get on here and accuse somone of fraud with out any proof !!!!!!! thanks tony

[crossram1969]

Tony, you are missing the point. You committed fraud when you advertised and sold the car as something it is not. Wether or not you actually did those things to the car does not matter. You, as the seller are responsible for what you advertise and sell in the eyes of the law. You are responsible to me for what you did when you advertised it as a real X77 all numbers matching car. It was none of those things. You were sent registered mail with Jerry Macneish's report on the car asking you to exchange the car for our money back. You refused and said buyer beware. You were also contacted by a NewCastle County detective and asked to do the same. You refused again. You can try and twist things around all you like, the fact of the matter is you committed fraud when you advertised and sold something under false pretenses. I have and the detective also has this proof. You advertised it on Team Camaro and Ebay as a X77 numbers matching car. You live pretty far from me so just taking a drive to check it out was not an option. I trusted you to be honest with me and you were not. If anyone wants more info about this case before dealing with Tony feel free to pm me and I can email you a copy of Camaro High Performance's report on the car and put you in contact with the detective that has all the info and that filed the bench warrant for him. Tony's famous last words "Buyer Beware". If that doesn't tell you what kind of a guy he is, I don't know what does. That was the last thing I heard from him when myself, a friend, a Delaware State detective from the vehicle theft division, a PA State detective from the vehicle theft division, and a NewCastle County detective had him on the speaker phone asking him to make it right.

[Tod74]

If he didn't know it had been faked...then how did he commit fraud? I am not taking sides just asking. MAYBE he honestly thought it was a real car.If you were going to make a big investment in what you thought was an all original car you should have verified the fact first. This is assuming that he himself was not the scumbag who did the number switch. If he did the switch or knew about it,then yes he is a criminal...but if he was honest and just mistaken or mislead...then he has done nothing wrong in my opinion.

[crossram1969]

According to the detectives and the DA's office and a prominent lawyer that was referred to us by Jerry M. the fact that he advertised and sold the car as such is when the fraud is committed. The actual crime of the VIN changes is a whole seperate charge. Each VIN change carries a felony charge. That would be 3 felony charges since all three VIN's were changed. They are both very different crimes. You do not have to prove someone knew about it being fake, just that they advertised and sold it as such. Under the law, he committed fraud. On another note, Tony was very very knowledgable when it came to 1st gen. Z's. He knew all the different part numbers like UH, 9204, 309, 472 etc. You guys that know Z's know what these are. He was not an uneducated person when it came to these cars. I have hours and hours of phone records with this man. He is a swap meet junkie, he knows what he is doing.

[lively]

According to the detectives and the DA's office and a prominent lawyer that was referred to us by Jerry M. the fact that he advertised and sold the car as such is when the fraud is committed. The actual crime of the VIN changes is a whole seperate charge. Each VIN change carries a felony charge. That would be 3 felony charges since all three VIN's were changed. They are both very different crimes. You do not have to prove someone knew about it being fake, just that they advertised and sold it as such. Under the law, he committed fraud. On another note, Tony was very very knowledgable when it came to 1st gen. Z's. He knew all the different part numbers like UH, 9204, 309, 472 etc. You guys that know Z's know what these are. He was not an uneducated person when it came to these cars. I have hours and hours of phone records with this man. He is a swap meet junkie, he knows what he is doing.

BUT , it seems to me you did not know what you were doing at all in this transaction!!!!---YOU ARE TRYING TO BUY A ##### MATCHING CAR/ YOU HAVE ALL THIS KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THESE ### MATCHING CARS/ AND YOU DO NOT GO CHECK IT OUT YOURSELF OR HAVE AN EXPERT IN THAT AREA DO IT FOR YOU!!!!---YOU ARE AT FAULT 100% IN THIS ONE BECAUSE YOU DID NOT CHECK IT OUT FIRST!!!--A GOOD LAWYER WILL TELL YOU THAT, BECAUSE YOU WOULD LOSE IN COURT----WETHER HE DID KNOW OR NOT YOU ARE THE ONE THAT FUMBLED THE BALL ON THIS DEAL :oops: :oops: --LIVELY IN ILLINOIS

[Tod74]

According to the detectives and the DA's office and a prominent lawyer that was referred to us by Jerry M. the fact that he advertised and sold the car as such is when the fraud is committed. The actual crime of the VIN changes is a whole seperate charge. Each VIN change carries a felony charge. That would be 3 felony charges since all three VIN's were changed. They are both very different crimes. You do not have to prove someone knew about it being fake, just that they advertised and sold it as such. Under the law, he committed fraud. On another note, Tony was very very knowledgable when it came to 1st gen. Z's. He knew all the different part numbers like UH, 9204, 309, 472 etc. You guys that know Z's know what these are. He was not an uneducated person when it came to these cars. I have hours and hours of phone records with this man. He is a swap meet junkie, he knows what he is doing.


Agreed
BUT , it seems to me you did not know what you were doing at all in this transaction!!!!---YOU ARE TRYING TO BUY A ##### MATCHING CAR/ YOU HAVE ALL THIS KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THESE ### MATCHING CARS/ AND YOU DO NOT GO CHECK IT OUT YOURSELF OR HAVE AN EXPERT IN THAT AREA DO IT FOR YOU!!!!---YOU ARE AT FAULT 100% IN THIS ONE BECAUSE YOU DID NOT CHECK IT OUT FIRST!!!--A GOOD LAWYER WILL TELL YOU THAT, BECAUSE YOU WOULD LOSE IN COURT----WETHER HE DID KNOW OR NOT YOU ARE THE ONE THAT FUMBLED THE BALL ON THIS DEAL :oops: :oops: --LIVELY IN ILLINOIS

[crossram1969]

Makes no difference in a court a of law if I was a knowledgable buyer or not. The fact that I did not know enough at the time to destinguish between a fake or the real thing has no bearing on the fact that the seller committed fraud. Check with your local law enforcement. If the law was to read "buyer beware" could you imagine the amount of fraud that would take place then, we as consumers would be in grave danger. If the laws worked backwards like you are saying then the consumer would have no legal ground to stand on. This carries over to everything in daily life that we as a consumer are purchasing. Fraud laws do not destinguish between auto transactions and other goods. Fraud comes in all shapes and sizes and dollar amounts. If you were to order a brand new top of the line DELL pc from DELL and find out later it was only a case with the name DELL on it and in fact it was the cheapest pc made, would you take action against Dell for advertising and selling you a pc for top dollar or say, my fault, I should have known more about pc's to now that DELL is not selling what it is advertising? Would you say that is not DELLS fault? Or would you accept fault for being an uneducated consumer. It is all the same. What you are saying is I just payed $5,000 for what DELL sayed was their best PC and what I got was a $100 knock-off. In your eyes then that is your fault not DELL's? It is the same thing under the fraud laws.

[lively]

THE FACT IS YOU DID NOT GO AND LOOK AT IT YOURSELF OR HAVE ANOTHER PRO DO IT FOR YOU!!!!! :roll: :roll: :roll: ---YOU MESSED UP AND DID NOT GET WHAT YOU WANTED----YOUR FAULT---YOU COULD HAVE CHECKED THE CAR OUT COMPLETELY :x :x :x :x ----NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK THE LAW SAYS IF YOU HAVE SUCH A GOOD CASE THEN BY ALL MEANS GO AFTER HIM/ DON'T BELLY ACHE AND COME HERE SCREAMING FOR YOU FAILING ON YOUR PART IN THIS DEAL :cry: :cry: :cry:

[chevguy65]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

[crossram1969]

Was not brought up as "belly achen" it was a broad post to warn others of him. It has gotten this far because he and yourself have taken it further. As far as looking at it before I bought it,. I asked him to give me a few weeks to drive out to Ohio and look at it. He said he was in a time crunch and needed to make the transaction happen ASAP because he was headed to a big swap meet in the South. So I caved (shame on me) and did what I could to accomadate him. It was delivered without ever seing it before in person. Now if you feel it is OK to advertise and sell something for something other than what it is, than more power to ya!! Just keep in mind, in life what comes around goes around. Your deceitfulness may come back to you in another form. Always remember though, it will come back. Also it isn't what I think the law says, that is what the law says. The only reason the State did not take it further was a matter of money, it costs a lot to extradite someone. At the time DE had a bunch of high profile crimes at the DA's office and felt they were more important. That is why they filed a bench warrant. If he is picked up in DE, they will then prosecute him in the DE Supreme Court.

[Tod74]

My only point is this; Despite what the law says about FRAUD you were foolish to make such an investment blind.

So if I sell a front fender as a fender for a 1970 chevelle,and it really came off of a 71 or 72 ,I am guilty of fraud? even if I honestly thought it came off of a 1970?

[crossram1969]

Let me ask you, if you did advertise and sell something for financial gain and the customer came back and had factual info that you sold him something other that what you said it was, would do the honoable thing or tell him buyer beware? You are right on the other hand, I will not let that happen to me again. Live and learn.

[bignastygs]

Hate to tell you guys,but Crossram 1969 is absolutely correct. There is a guy named Troy Acton, who purchased a 70 Stage 1 GS from a guy that apparently had the same thing done to it. He asked me to help out with some cowl tag decoding and the car was painted 1 color(original to the car) and the tag revealed another color. Then,when he looked even deeper,the car was an A/C car and the original buildsheet options for the VIN was a non A/C car. The Indiana State Police even went as far as taking the body up off the frame to only see the frame numbers were not the same as the VIN numbers. On an A body GM car, the frame is stamped in a few places and the bodies are generally stamped in a couple places as well with the last numbers of the VIN. I know where these are(but don't ask me to disclose) and helped Troy get to the bottom of it. In the end,the seller was taken to court and had not only to pay him back,but also had to retain possesion of the car. The bad thing is,its now on record, and the State Police even took cutters and took the VIN tag leaving a big open hole in the dash. There was alot of bad press over it,but in the end even though Troy didn't do a thorough enough job checking this car out,it was still irresponsibility on the sellers behalf that was brought out.He should have done the same as Troy,unless he knew all of the illegal work. My Point to Lowdown is if you switched the tags or had info regarding it and tried to make a buck on someone unsuspecting...YOU are a scumbag and should be prosecuted to the fullest,If you were an innocent party..I'd be contacting my lawyer to get a refund of money since you were screwed too.

[Tod74]

Hate to tell you guys,but Crossram 1969 is absolutely correct. There is a guy named Troy Acton, who purchased a 70 Stage 1 GS from a guy that apparently had the same thing done to it. He asked me to help out with some cowl tag decoding and the car was painted 1 color(original to the car) and the tag revealed another color. Then,when he looked even deeper,the car was an A/C car and the original buildsheet options for the VIN was a non A/C car. The Indiana State Police even went as far as taking the body up off the frame to only see the frame numbers were not the same as the VIN numbers. On an A body GM car, the frame is stamped in a few places and the bodies are generally stamped in a couple places as well with the last numbers of the VIN. I know where these are(but don't ask me to disclose) and helped Troy get to the bottom of it. In the end,the seller was taken to court and had not only to pay him back,but also had to retain possesion of the car. The bad thing is,its now on record, and the State Police even took cutters and took the VIN tag leaving a big open hole in the dash. There was alot of bad press over it,but in the end even though Troy didn't do a thorough enough job checking this car out,it was still irresponsibility on the sellers behalf that was brought out.He should have done the same as Troy,unless he knew all of the illegal work. My Point to Lowdown is if you switched the tags or had info regarding it and tried to make a buck on someone unsuspecting...YOU are a scumbag and should be prosecuted to the fullest,If you were an innocent party..I'd be contacting my lawyer to get a refund of money since you were screwed too.

I only ment IF (and that is a big IF) the seller had no knowledge of the switch and really thought it was legit.I don't doubt that the law says he is responsible...but I think it is a load of crap to hold him criminally responsible unless there was proof that he knew it was a fake...but it does sound as if this guy(the seller) knew what was up.

[mrgasser55]

due to some response,i thought i would respond again,when i posted this car on ebay i also said sold as is ,where is,there are a lot of big dollar cars sold on ebay that say the same,its the buyer,s responsabilty to look at the car and make sure its what he wants before buying it,the two guys that owned it before me,and myself did not know nothing of the #s being changed,if they really where and that,s a big if !!!!!!! this deal happend over two to three years ago,there is no way in hell he can prove that i changed the #,s,so tell me how he can have any proof that i did,nobody"s going to sell a car to a stranger and and than after a month or two give him his money back when he say,s there somthing a wrong with it,that,s what it mean,s when it says sold as-is where- is .i bought and sold a lot of cars in my time and never had a complaint against me,there was some i bought that was not what they were suppose to be but i did not cry about it ,it was my falt for not looking at them better.i also talked to my lawyer when this happend and he told me there,s no way they could prove that i did any thing thanks for listening,tony,ps lively i building a 55 gasser also give me a call if you want and will talk about them,thanks

[mrgasser55]

Hi guy,s i would like to make another point .I have listed on here a 68 camaro conv,the price is 35k i said in the add it did not have the right motor in it,if i was a cheat or a fraud i would have not said any thing about it or had the #,s changed on the motor ,but i did not ,iam as honest as i can be in description of the cars i sell,thanks tony

[Scorpion1110]

Interesting thread. I owned a numbers match 69 X33 car and if you checked the cowl in a couple spots you would match the last 6 of the VIN.

So here's the question, if the buyer of this car looked at the VIN and it matched the block (dont check the pad by the DZ, thats not where it would be stamped), and the 4 speed, and it matched the stamps on the firewall-and it turns out perhaps that the sections of the firewall were grafted in-might that not be a legal rebody/rebuild? In other words, you can use a cowl or parts of one for a rebuild and still be legal.

Also, what about the 69 Dynacorn bodies? I have heard that there is a rebody allowed and on inspection that the state will allow transfer of VIN-I think there might even be a link on their site.

Now if the VIN doesnt match the cowl stamp, then thats a fake-and I have indeed heard that parties not privy to the fraud were ultimately accountable for it.

Bottom line is that an inspection can be had for $100 in most locales and its cheap insurance for a high dollar purchase. And the law is often not logical or reasonable yet we are all held accountable to abide by it.

Just my two cents or 1.25 if you allow for inflation.