Standing behind your engine...

[kwillymac]

About 4 years ago I had a 454 with a 174 B&M Blower built by a local engine builder. I paid quite a bit of money considering I brought the fully balanced short block, Heads, and Blower.

Anyway he built the engine and put it on the Dyno. He broke it in and then made 10 pulls with it. It made 670 Horsepower and 646 Ft.lbs of torque. A little better then expected with a solid flat tappet cam.

So I picked the motor up and put it in my 1968 Camaro pro street car. I drove the car around for about two weeks. Maybe 100 miles. I went out one night and I can hear the motor missing. I brought it home and found out a rocker loosened up about .050. I brought it to him and he put a gauge on it and sure enough the cam was losing a lobe. He asked me to pull it out and he would take care of it. He knew I only drove it a couple weeks. He said bring it down he would call Comp Cams and get everything exchanged and would take the motor apart and clean it. He would call me when he was done. Well he called me and gave me an estimate of about 1800.00. I was stunned. He said he had to pay one of his guys to do it and he wanted to replace some stuff. I told him not to touch it, went picked it up with my friend. I get there and the guy tells me he feels really bad I told him whatever...take care.

I know it was a long story. I just can't stand when someone doesn't stand behind their work. I did nothing to cause the cam problem. He broke it in and did the dyno pulls, I just putted around for two weeks. Anyway I never used him again for anything. I have no respect for him now.

[chevguy65]

kwilly,

you will find that happens more and more and is not limited just to engines etc. rather it has spread like wildfire in any retail situation.

We as customers are getting screwed everyday.
It used to be that if you bought a new washer/dryer and two weeks later your washer started leaking, you called the Company you bought it from and they sent a guy to fix or replace it.
Now you call and they tell you to go through the manufacturer, the manuf. asks for your warranty info, you tell them it was bought through Company X and they say, you will need them to contact us.
So starts the shifting of blame and responsibility. Someone eventually blame you for using city water vs well, or that you overfilled it, or some other lame excuse.

Now, just change washer/dryer for anything else you may buy and it is the same all over again.


Get it in writing, get it notarized if you can, make copies, and record any conversations you have.
This is the only concrete way to ensure you get a good deal.\

On the other hand, there still are some very reputable, honest and ethical builders, salesmen, etc. so do not let one bad experience stop you from having some trust in your fellow man.

[kwillymac]

Yeah I know...This happened about 4 1/2 years ago and I never had a Hotrod out again. I bought a house and never had money. I sold that camaro and motor and have been slowly collecting another project. I have found another builder that I trust.

Thanks.

[billhendren]

Unless a customer is willing to install lifter bushings or oversize lifters in a big block Chevrolet with factory block you have a very good chance of loosing a cam lobe. lifter bores in factory block are more often than not in the wrong place centering a lifter on the cam will not allow it to rotate and will cause a failure.we wont warranty any flat tappet cam unless the lifter bores have been corrected.this may be what you ran into with your former builder but you should have been made aware of the high risk you were taking before the build.Bill

[Pwmax]

I am with Bill. When a guy wants to use a flat tappet solid cam these days, I drill and drill, and educate, and drill some more, that, it is way more common for them to fail thses days. The lifters of of suspect quality, unless you spend $300-$700 on some high end stuff, which, totaly makes using a flat tappet cam not worth it, at that price. The main reason for the failures is oil related. No zink, magnesiumn, or other high pressure lubes in the oil. Rottella T, and a bottle of Comp or Crane additive, will eliminate the majority of problems, but will not save a soft lifter.

This is one of those situations, where, the engine shop is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't, with regards to "covering" this problem. Comp likely won't do a thing, possible give a discount on the new parts, but they absolutely will not pay for any labor or the sort. As engine shops, these things happen from time to time. As far as being damned if he does, he will loose a bunch of money, and time, and work for free, for a problem that isn;t his fault. He didn;t make the lifter or cam. I realize he chose the parts, so, some guys think that makes him responsible. He is damned if he doesn't do anything, as is the case, because now your bad mouthing him online, and I am sure to everyone that will listen. I had a similiar situation happen a few years back, and, it cost me $350 out of my pockets, for a cam, lifter, rings, bearings, and gaskets, plus a full day and a half, tearing down, re-hong, cleaning everything, and re-assembling his engine. Was it my fault? No way. The report I got from "spies" if you will, just guys I knew, that knew them, and were there when they ran it, said it was a totaly rediculous scene, of 3 or 4 guys, arguing how the distributor goes in, and how to time it, etc etc. After about an hour of back fires, and carb fires, and cranking and cranking, and trying this spot, and that spot with the diastributor, they finaly got it to run, and let it run for 5 minutes at 1500, then they all stood around, listening to it idle, drinking beer, saying how cool it sounded. But I did fix it, because I KNOW what will happen if I did;t, this very thing. The guy ended up wounded the engine later anyhow, it was a 468 8-71 pump gas engine, that, never went to the dyno, and was run on 92, and, he had his 2 friends, Dumb and Dumber helping him tune it. Well, it made so much power, that they disconnected the secondaries, on holleys, and, did 6000 rpm burnouts, leaned the piss out of it, and melted some pistons, and knocked out some bearings. Expected me to fix it again, and I said NO WAY. It was detonated, you did it, I told you it needed to be dynoed, you refused, now you see what happens when they aren't tuned right. Well, needless to say, i was a jerk, and a crook, etc etc. You can;t win them all I guess. Come to find out later, that the other shop he tooki it to, told him exactly what i did, and, refused to work on it, after he told him he wouldn't dyno it. And, I got work out of the other shop, doing cyllinder head porting for him, as he was impressed with my work. So, it worked out in the end, and I got a bit of satisfaction out of the whole deal, but still.

Long winded, sorry, but, I personaly don't think the engine shop should be put on the hook for this. I think you will find, most won't, at least they will give you semi break, because they feel bad, but to expect them to pay for it, and eat the whole thing, is wrong.

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

[bjuice]

Lol...Frank last night i started to make a post simliar to yours and just deleted it because it got soooo long winded....but i DO AGREE with what you just said...
i DO NOT feel however that every engine needs to be dynoed in order to avoid a meltdown..i have seen them built for years and re-done them myself without dynoing and never melted one down that a dyno session could have avoided..i spun a cam bearing once on start up but this would have happened on the dyno as well....
if you follow the broad ban rules you will be OK...Get stupid and you will pay..... in My opinion the DYNO is a fine tune device...

but i DO AGREE with your post Frank....

and PS..people also have to remember the nature of the beast when dealing with High performance Engines.....there is an element of no gaurantee with these motors...a 650 hp motor falls into what i consider HP.

Even if the Engine builder does go out on a limb and says he will gurantee one...where does the line get drawn...start up...,pass #1, pass #100....

where does the blame become 100% the owner of the motor ?

my 2 cents right or wrong..

brian

[kwillymac]

I don't know what kind of work needs to be done to a stock block but it was lifter trued for 400.00. So I would assume that would help with the lifter situation.

Talking to other engine builders they said they had a few problems with those lifters back then because of something with the manufacturers. I guess the material wasn't up to snuff. They sent there stuff back and Comp Cams replaced things for nothing.

I really never expected him to cover it for free. I knew him pretty well and offered to pay him something and he said "Don't worry about it" "I know you aren't made of money" I still expected to pay something and I would have. Not $1,800.00 just because he had to have someone else assemble it after he already assured me he would do it.

Lastly badmouthing the guy on the internet is not really what I was out to do. I wasn't happy with the situation but I never mentioned to anyone who it was. That wouldn't be right.

[bjuice]

i can see your complaint when you put it that way...
don't tell me something and NOT follow thru.

Brian

[billhendren]

In big block Chevrolet factory blocks due to the common lifter mis alignment front to rear we handle it like this.If we install lifter bore sleeves to get them in the correct position we would warranty the cam and lifters,both parts and labor. without the lifter bores corrected we wouldn't cover the job. this is explained in detail and noted on the work order before the job is done so the customer can decide which way to go, that way if the cam fails there isn't any hard feelings.Bill

[kwillymac]

Also considering I street drove the car probably less then 100 miles I can't see my responsibility. :roll:

[davebat]

What would you do if your were in the position of the shop's. Understanding you have many customers, how could you afford to stay in business?
Frustrating, to say the least.
Also, wondering, why is it so important to dyno a new build (other than finding out HP and Torque)?

[bjuice]

What would you do if your were in the position of the shop's. Understanding you have many customers, how could you afford to stay in business?
Frustrating, to say the least.
Also, wondering, why is it so important to dyno a new build (other than finding out HP and Torque)?


Fine tuning thats it....as a matter of fact dyno for tuning suppose to be a primary function...not finding max hp/tq..altough this becomes a part of it AFTER the fine tuning......my last alcohol injected blown motor never did find max hp/tq cause we were on a mission to dial in the injection with correct manual fuel pump....i am sure we could have kept turning up the boost and exceeded the dyno's potential for reading hp..the one we were using anyhow..the operater said it was good up to about 1300 hp...so whats the use..
my 2 cents

Brian

[kwillymac]

What would you do if your were in the position of the shop's. Understanding you have many customers, how could you afford to stay in business?
Frustrating, to say the least.
Also, wondering, why is it so important to dyno a new build (other than finding out HP and Torque)?

I liked it in my case because the engine builder broke it in to avoid me doing it. Also my first pull was 620 Horsepower. After fussing with the carb for a few hours and more pulls he found 50 Horsepower. I was happy with that result.

[cboggs]

Fine tuning thats it....as a matter of fact dyno for tuning suppose to be a primary function...not finding max hp/tq..

Brian

Brian,

I wish more people understood this, .. seen too many high dollar engine builds
go wrong cause the guy wanted to save $600 and not dyno tune.

Guys, Frank, all, .. REALLY REALLY good thread.
Now with the internet anybody can get on here a slam the heck out of
shop even if the shop didn't do anything wrong, .. and it
could cost people their business, their homes, .. do huge damage just
cause a customer didn't understand something, . . scary times
to be in business.

Kwillymac, I'm wondering after 4 years why are you bringing it up now?
Did you have a tech question?

Curtis

[kwillymac]

Fine tuning thats it....as a matter of fact dyno for tuning suppose to be a primary function...not finding max hp/tq..

Brian

Brian,

I wish more people understood this, .. seen too many high dollar engine builds
go wrong cause the guy wanted to save $600 and not dyno tune.

Guys, Frank, all, .. REALLY REALLY good thread.
Now with the internet anybody can get on here a slam the heck out of
shop even if the shop didn't do anything wrong, .. and it
could cost people their business, their homes, .. do huge damage just
cause a customer didn't understand something, . . scary times
to be in business.

Kwillymac, I'm wondering after 4 years why are you bringing it up now?
Did you have a tech question?

Curtis

Well I was just curious what other engine builders thoughts were on this. I recently talked to another engine builder in this area and said in my case he would have made good. He said he has had to do that before. Considering it was broken in on his dyno and the cam went a few weeks after. He is friends with the engine builder that didn't make good. This guy didn't agree with the way it was handled.

I guess it has stuck with me for 4 years because I never recovered and haven't had a car out since. Guess I am still sore. I spent $22,000.00 on that 1968 Camaro in one year and I am still paying for it. I no longer have the motor or car because I tried to pay off some of the debt.

[billhendren]

ok Bill let me throw a wrench into this...say the person paid for the lifter bore sleeves etc...and the lifter still failed causing other problems...for the sake of argument lets just say it wiped out the cam,lifters, spun a cam bearing to where the block could not be straighten out with a line bore..bottom line customer needs new block, bearings,cam,lifters and what ever else it hurt along with all the machine work and assembly...how much of this would you cover ?

lets wrench it on up and lets say the lifters failed 1 year out after 200 passes or 2500 road miles, or the lifters failed during a botched valve train adjustment..( human error) that would be hard to prove or dis-approve after the fact...

My point i am trying to get at is Where do you draw the line as an engine builder ?..

not trying to be controversial but i can see a custom engine builder being put out of business real fast with some of the knuckle heads out here..

i am in NO WAY trying to defend these mass engine assemblers such as DYNO-FLO where the over sight was so obvious it hurt..

Brian

We fully warranty our race engines while on the dyno and afterwords if it is a problem that I feel I should cover.two years ago I 100% warrantied two engines,both super late model with aluminum blocks because of rod bolt failure. the first one made it through the dyno session and failed on the track. there was never a question whether i would cover it because it was obvious the rod bolt failed. the crank was perfect other than the large ding where it kicked the rod through the block,same with the bearing, bent but perfect. the second engine with the same brand of bolts failed on my dyno,I warrantied that as well. both engines cost me well over $15,000.00 and the bolt manufacture denied all responsibility so it came out of my pocket.
In the long run I made out because both these customers highly recommend me and have sent me a ton of work, we have also become good friends.
Bottom line,warranty work is on a case by case deal. I do what I would like a shop to do for me but I don't cover stuff that is obviously not a part failure or machine error. example of whats not covered. bottom end failure due to oil pump belt breakage or severe overheating. even then if its less than 30 days since we built the engine we will do the labor for free or at a large discount just to help the racer out. Bill

[lively]

GOOD BUSINESS DEALINGS ARE ALWAYS GOOD FOR BUSINESS----WAY TO GO BILL!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: ---LIVELY

[davebat]

Anyone know of a REALLY good dyno shop within a couple hundred miles from Cleveland. Ohio?
The machine shop I'm using has some really strange ideas so I'm not gonna use them. I'm putting my motor together myself.

[davebat]

Bill, what is that brand of bolts to stay the hell away from? And please don't say ARP!

[davebat]

Also, where is a REALLY good place to get my heads built? Heads were ported (need to be cleaned up), intake (haven't decided on Jr. or Super) needs to be ported to match. Within a couple hundred miles from me.

[billhendren]

Bill, what is that brand of bolts to stay the hell away from? And please don't say ARP!
Check your P.M. Bill

[burgessdg]

I'm with Frank. If the builder was at fault because of negligence, then he should stand by his work. I do my own motors. If a cam fails, a cam fails. I've had it happen. Even the cam manufacturer just tells you you must not have broken it in correctly. I've never gotten anything from them. Why is it OK for me to have to rebuild it myself, but paying for that labor makes the guy liable for everything. Unless you get a stated mileage/time warranty, I don't think you should expect one.

Dan

[zipper06]

[quote=bjuice]ok Bill let me throw a wrench into this...say the person paid for the lifter bore sleeves etc...and the lifter still failed causing other problems...for the sake of argument lets just say it wiped out the cam,lifters, spun a cam bearing to where the block could not be straighten out with a line bore..bottom line customer needs new block, bearings,cam,lifters and what ever else it hurt along with all the machine work and assembly...how much of this would you cover ?

lets wrench it on up and lets say the lifters failed 1 year out after 200 passes or 2500 road miles, or the lifters failed during a botched valve train adjustment..( human error) that would be hard to prove or dis-approve after the fact...

My point i am trying to get at is Where do you draw the line as an engine builder ?..

not trying to be controversial but i can see a custom engine builder being put out of business real fast with some of the knuckle heads out here..

i am in NO WAY trying to defend these mass engine assemblers such as DYNO-FLO where the over sight was so obvious it hurt..

Brian

We fully warranty our race engines while on the dyno and afterwords if it is a problem that I feel I should cover.two years ago I 100% warrantied two engines,both super late model with aluminum blocks because of rod bolt failure. the first one made it through the dyno session and failed on the track. there was never a question whether i would cover it because it was obvious the rod bolt failed. the crank was perfect other than the large ding where it kicked the rod through the block,same with the bearing, bent but perfect. the second engine with the same brand of bolts failed on my dyno,I warrantied that as well. both engines cost me well over $15,000.00 and the bolt manufacture denied all responsibility so it came out of my pocket.
In the long run I made out because both these customers highly recommend me and have sent me a ton of work, we have also become good friends.
Bottom line,warranty work is on a case by case deal. I do what I would like a shop to do for me but I don't cover stuff that is obviously not a part failure or machine error. example of whats not covered. bottom end failure due to oil pump belt breakage or severe overheating. even then if its less than 30 days since we built the engine we will do the labor for free or at a large discount just to help the racer out. Bill[/quote

]
Bill you are a one in a million/Saint.
Not many people will stand by their product when it comes to racing engines. I'm certain that much of your business is repeat business because of your honesty. I personally build my own engines, but i were in your neighborhood i would most certainly recommend you to my friends
Zip.

[Pwmax]

Not to keep making points, but yah, Bill, I suppose, maybe you felt you or one of your guys didn;t tighten the bolt right maybe? But, a bolt failure, if it truly was just a faulty bolt, tightened correctly, I don;t see how you can be responsible, but I do understand that grey area. There has to be some sort of comprimise on both sides. I personaly don;t think its fair, that a company can make a defective part, you use it, and the part fails, that its your fault, and you have to eat it.

Here is a situation, within weeks. We did a 509 for a guy, out of a 502 crtate engine. He beat it for 2 years, HARD, sprayed it with 200shot of nos, using at least 1 bottle a weekend, for 2 years. This is a pump gas engine. He recently put a big shot plate on it, and the 350 jets. He still ran 92, and didn;t pull anymore timing out of it, etc, and it detonated. It had the original gm head bolts, as from the crate engine, with cometic gaskets. He detonated it, and it lifted the head, and puffed a gasket. It was leaking compression, and ran funny. So, he pulled it out, and, it was freshened, ARP head studs added, etc. Everything was fine. He puts it back in, and, he set the timing wrong. Had 68 degrees of timing, at least he was honest and admitted that. Most guys would "forget" that part. Well, he sprayed it, on 92, and, doesn;t know exactly where the timing was, because he has a retard box, but if it was set at 68 degrees, well, take 2 degrees for every 50 hp, roughly, and do the math, he still had 54 degrees of timing, spraying a 350 shot, on 92 octane!!. Lets just say, it didn;t like it to well.

It melted 3 pistons, lifted the heads again, and tweaked them, it stretched the center 3 mains out. Considering, the damage wasn;t that bad. But, now, he just spent a bunch of money 2 weeks ago, and now, has to spend even more, and, he is sorta hinting at being "helped" out on the bill, considering it was just re-done 2 weeks ago. So, do you work for half price to help him out, because he made a mistake? Thats not really fair is it? He screwed up, everything was mint when it left, he wrecks it, and now wants a deal. What do you do? You do that 3 or 4 times a year, and man, you loose your a**, for doing a good job, and they mess it up. Some guys will be mad, and go out and bad mouth you for that above situation, becaue quote "He didn't help me out". One of those deals, what do you do? Damed if you do, damned if you don't. And being honest, and always doing a good job, and hope to be reffered to friends etc, you don;t want to make waves, knowing how little it takes, for a whiner to say negative stuff about you, and, that old rule, make a customer happy, and he may or may not tell anyone about you, but, piss a customer off, and, They will tell ANYBODY that will listen, negative things about you.

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

[billhendren]

We have had dry sump belts break or come off on new engines the first night out.In a case like this where the customer is honest and admits a mistake we would knock 25% or so off the labor to help him out, in fact this just occurred last week.
In the long run you keep a customer and gain more because he will tell his Friends you helped him out when you clearly didn't need to.
If your in this business for the long haul taking care of customers is top priority. any money you loose taking care of the customers will be made back and then some later.
Don't get me wrong,we don't go crazy warrantying engines.example would be if a customer supplied there own parts and there part failed.we tell the customer and note it on the tag that when they supply the parts we only guarantee the machine work was done correct. Bill

[racear2865]

We prefer all our customers to let us start their engines on the dyno.First off it most definitely is still mine at that point.No good way to say this, we all make mistakes but we keep a check list to start engines to reduce mistakes to minimum. How many customers do you have that does that.WE have had people start them with no oil, no water, little if no fuel. Guess how many will tell you they did that? Very few. We demand that we start flat tappet motors. We had one customer that lost 3 lobes on (break in). His belief, get motor hot quick by leaving water out and then fill and let idle. This way it want knock lobes off from running too fast to start with. Dont get me wrong, the majority of our customers do not do any of the above, but we all have some. How do you handle it.As gently and as tactfully as you can. We, like Bill, try to help every customer whom has the misfortune of new engine delimas. We need that good customer base so dont shoot your self in the foot if you are at fault. If you are not at fault. sit down with customer and make every attempt at coming to middle ground. You and him both will be better off and most time likely he will return because you took that time. It is no sin to admit guilt on either side. The lady of the house says I am dumberrrr than sh-t and I tactfully found middle ground ( and agreed).I did get supper that night but nothing else.
thanks for listening to an old man ravings
racear

[Pwmax]

Racear,

I hear you. The main reason I insist on dynoing any performance engine, is, for the simple fact I want to see it run, break it in propperly, make sure there is no leaks, etc etc. That way, they can;t take it home and wreck it. At least if you do have a problem on the dyno, you can fix it, before its totaly ruined, and, its usualy not a big deal. But, let them take it home, with the buddy factor, it usualy seems like there is an "expert" buddy involved, thats calling the shots, and, that scenerio is usualy a nightmare waiting to happen, as, they know just enough to be dangerous. That way, too, if there is a problem later, its pretty hard to point the finger at me, and the engine will usualy "tell" you what happened.

I have head of a few stories from other shops, where they forgot to put oil in the engine, and ran it, and torched it, then bring it back, flipping out, to try and scam the shop to fix it for free.Thankfully, I have very little problems, and don;t have to deal with a whole lot, but one story, where we did some heads, and machining for a budget circle track racer, low end class, that not to stereotype, but, wanted it for free, dropped it off today, but wants it yesterday types. THey put it together, this is mid season, so, we rushed it thru for them, they are happy, run the rest of the season, 5 or 6 weekends, did well. Then, in the spring, they show up, absolutely borderline psychotic, screaming, yelling, freaking out, causing a big scene, accusing us of "craking" there engine. Its like "What??" You cracked our engine, and built us a piece of junk. on and on. Turns out, they drained the water, for winter, and, when they pulled it out in spring, they fired it up, got it running, and, when it was SMOKING hot, they remembered that no one put water in it. So, out came the garden hose, while it was running, and, they fill the radiator with nice, 58 degree city water, in a 270 degree engine, lol. Lets just say, it didn't like that to well, and it cracked the block like an egg, in a few spots. Well, they forgot to mention the part about forgetting the water. A buddy of ours, who was there, helping them get in running, in a conversation 2 days later, was not aware of them coming down, and causing the scene, and didn;t know, that they came down and pulled that. When the stories collaborated, he flipped out, chewed out his buddy, and, we got an appology, and the typical cry me a river story, of no money, etc etc. At that point, its like, go pound sand pall.

But yah, its to bad we have to deal with stuff like that. And like me or not for being vocal, its total BS. Not to say we aren;t all human, and do make mistakes from time to time, although, I really can;t think of any I have made, lol. Seriously though, I double and tripple check stuff, because to be quite Frank, no pun intended, I can;t afford to. But, this is a good post, to give us shops some insight, on how other guys handle these situations, and, for the guy getting work done.

Frank
Advanced Performance
www.get-ap.com

[racear2865]

I would like to make a statement that I dont feel that most people do not understand. My dyno has never made money. It is an investement. With the labor that goes into dynoing an engine, we just hope to break even on the labor. But what it does offer the opputunity not to loose money. It is a safety measure for the consumer. He can hear, feel, and smell his product before it ever leaves. He can stand right beside you and see the numbers. If he has questions, he can ask then and there. If he sees a problem, you have the oppurtunity to deal with there and not in the car. I dont know about the rest of you engine builders, but my dyno cost as much as any piece of equipment in my shop, but makes less money than anything I have. But it is the greatest learning tool you can purchase. My belief is, if you cant measure it, then how the hell do you know if you improved it. Numbers dont lie but liars can lie about the numbers. God, aint it great about philosophy and being full of crap. So she tolf me again this morning. As quick as she gets my breakfast done I going to tell her what I think.
racear

[Tod74]

I realize all shops are different,but about how much does it cost to take a motor and have it tuned on a dyno?

[kwillymac]

Well I see this turned into quite a topic. Yesterday I got invited to an open house by an engine builder I really like. (He was the one who owns the Dyno my engine was on.) Anyway, it was a great time with a lot of good food and good people. I will try to get my new motor to him next year and hopefully be out for the first time in quite a while. Thanks for the replies guys. :wink:

[kwillymac]

I realize all shops are different,but about how much does it cost to take a motor and have it tuned on a dyno?

I believe it is $400-$500 at the shop I am referring too. You get the Dyno for a day.

[jackbn]

I had a guy come to me about 4 wks ago with a 68 Chevelle ss396 that had been running bad (he complained it wouldn't spin the tires, BTW the tires are 6 inches wide). He told me that he had 2 cams go bad in the last 2 years (both comp cams). I took it for a ride and it wouldn't go past 5K RPM and it "popped". So I put another cam in it (Lunati VooDoo) and broke it in VERY carefully. In resetting the pre-load on the rockers I noticed that the roller tips on the intake valves were about half off the valve stem. So the more I observed the more I thought that the guides were off. So I took one guide off and matched it to stock BBC guide and sure enough it was off by quite a bit. So I changed them all. Now if you think about it the guides being off could have put enough bind in the pushrod/ lifter to not allow them to turn, I dunno. Anyway, so far it's OK..