building first BBC - advice please

[r8ceredy]

I'm building a 496 BBC and am starting with a 4 bolt 1973 454 block. I have selected (but not bought yet) an Eagle forged stroker rotating assembly with H-beam rods and SRP domed pistons that will give me 10.5:1 with my aluminum Edelbrock RPM heads. I have a Victor JR 454-O intake that is port matched with the heads and a 750dp carb.
My questions to the masses are:
-What power level is the factory main caps/bolts good to? Do I need main studs? (target is around 650hp)
-I have looked at a Comp Cam solid roller cam with 252/260 duration at .050 with manageable .600 lift. Does this look like a decent cam to make around 650hp on 92 octane? This is a 90% street car with a 3200-3600 stall converter and correct gearing hence the pump gas criteria.
-Anybody built a similiar combo with some advice on selections?
I am putting this engine in a 68 camaro with a built th400 and ford 9". This is my first big block after a slew of nitrous small blocks. I hope to run 11's in full sleeper (heavy) street trim. I look forward to your responses and say thanks in advance.

[topsportsman1]

First off r8ceredy welcome to the RJ forum.I am sure you'll get some feedback here on your combination.
Sounds like you are going to have a real nice engine,there for I'd say your alright with the stock bolts in the caps,with that HP level,but thats my opinion.

Then BBC will take a decent amount of HP,I'd say in the neighborhood of 700 to 750 hp then I'd stud the bottom end.

Just make sure your clearances up up to snuff for this combination to live,and a good oiling system,don't cheap out on the oil pump,

Make sure the crank rods and pistons are balanced and get a good machinest to mic up the crank and rods to ensure it is within tolerances,this is a big thing when using Eagle brand parts,things I have found,is their clearances are on the tight side.And you don't want that.

Who's next?
Thanks for stopping by

Tom

[zipper06]

Tom's right about Eagle, i've been in their shop (my second home is only 40 miles away.). I donot for the life of me understand why they grind their cranks -.0005 -.001 when it's absolutely necessary to have .002/.003 clearances. But i always buy clevite H 1's which give me .001 extra clearance.

JMO .02

Zip.

[edvancedengines]

For your first BB Chevy Street engine it looks like you have done some homework. Looks like a pretty good streetable combination. Should be lots of fun enjoying Big Block Torque.

Ed

[topsportsman1]

Tom's right about Eagle, i've been in their shop (my second home is only 40 miles away.). I donot for the life of me understand why they grind their cranks -.0005 -.001 when it's absolutely necessary to have .002/.003 clearances. But i always buy clevite H 1's which give me .001 extra clearance.

JMO .02

Zip.

Zip

Correction its the X bearings that give you Xtra clearance,not the H-1,them bearings are the .001 tighter bearings

H-1 .001 tighter
Std Standard
H-X .001 more clearance

Then of coarse you got the mix and match to achive alot more tolerances,within .0005
Thats 5 tenths, not thousands

[cepx111]

I would say you will be safe with the 4 bolt block, but upgrading to studs will make it much stronger. Just make sure you have the line bore checked if you do go with studs. The extra clamping force the studs provide sometimes distort the bearing bores so get it line honed to be on the safe side. Make sure you check your rod to pan rail clearances. Sometimes they clear sometimes they dont. I'm building a similar bbc 496 except I am going with more compression ( 13 to 1) and a big lunati solid roller and mine is a 2 bolt but I have studs and a stud guirdle, what I did was after I got my block bored I installed 2 pistons at a time on the crank throws and rotated it alway around and checked clearances and then you can take you block back and have it vatted if you had to do any grinding and then have your cam bearings installed.
Goodluck and welcome to the forum, Charles

[zipper06]

Tom's right about Eagle, i've been in their shop (my second home is only 40 miles away.). I donot for the life of me understand why they grind their cranks -.0005 -.001 when it's absolutely necessary to have .002/.003 clearances. But i always buy clevite H 1's which give me .001 extra clearance.

JMO .02

Zip.

Zip

Correction its the X bearings that give you Xtra clearance,not the H-1,them bearings are the .001 tighter bearings

H-1 .001 tighter
Std Standard
H-X .001 more clearance

Then of coarse you got the mix and match to achive alot more tolerances,within .0005
Thats 5 tenths, not thousands

Sorry you are right,right,right, i had my head up my butt on that post,

.ooo thousands, .0000, tenths,
I've been a machinest for almost 50 yrs. and the hx's are the extra clearances, DUH, me STUPID-O
Hey Tom i'll bet it won't happen again, because there's too many sharpies out there to catch me HeHe.

Zip. :oops:

[topsportsman1]

We all get confused Zip it comes with age,I right behind you

But you are correct in the clearances tho,a good .002 to .003 for the clearances,

I been doing this game (machinest-engine builder) 30 years or better,I'd like to know what you've forgot :P

One thing tho,we are all gearheads,live sleep and eat

[zipper06]

We all get confused Zip it comes with age,I right behind you

But you are correct in the clearances tho,a good .002 to .003 for the clearances,

I been doing this game (machinest-engine builder) 30 years or better,I'd like to know what you've forgot :P

One thing tho,we are all gearheads,live sleep and eat

HeHe, can't help you my friend, i forgot what i forgot. :lol:

Zip.

[lively]

age--what about the carb!!--the wheels too wide---I'M TIRED OR OLD OR-----------------------------------

[r8ceredy]

I am having a very reputable machine/speed shop do the work so I'll stay on them about the clearances. I'm having the works done to the block, bore hone decked. Typically does the block have to be relieved for the longer stroke? I am going with the longer 6.385 rods so as to not bring the piston so far down the cylinder, didn't know if that creates a small clearance problem. Also looking for opinions on Eagle also offers a 511 stroker which is simply a 4.375 stroke versus the 4.350 stroke 496. Pros or cons on that one? Will the longer stroke hurt my rpm potential? All the other parts I have purchased so far seem to be centered around 3000-7000 power band. Will a 750dp keep up with this or will I need to go larger? I would like to turn 11's on pump gas and DOT cheater slicks, got tired of filling NOS bottles on the small block to do that. Did I mention that nothing sounds like a big block? :D I appreciate the help!

[r8ceredy]

Also looking for opinions on Eagle also offers a 511 stroker which is simply a 4.375 stroke versus the 4.350 stroke 496.
Meant to say 4.250 stroke on the 496-sorry

[edvancedengines]

The block will have to be cut for rod clearances if using the 4.250 stroke. It will need to be cut on the pan rails and at the bottom of cylinders.

Using the 4 3/8 stroke is possible but will require even more cutting of the block pan rails bottom of cylinders and in some cases the inside sides of the block. Unless your shop is experienced with block cutting/grinding on that block for stroker clearances, I would suggest to not try. Most people can do ok even if first time cutting for a 4 1/4 stroke. 4 3/8 gets trickey.

Ed

[firestone]

Here are just a couple of things to think about.

The heads are nice, but i think a solid 650 may be a little hard to reach with them. I think you will be in the ball park, but based on the article below, it may be a little difficult to actually reach that goal. Below is an article about a motor vey similar to yours. The cam has a little less duration but quite a bit more lift. This motor made 625 hp.

http://www.compcams.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=-2023343081

In order to safely meet that goal, I would recommend getting a little clean up port work done on the edelbrock heads or considering the AFR 305 or 325cc heads with the CNC combustion chambers. You can get a set of those from AFR assembeled for $2500. From what I could find, The edelbrocks are ~$2000 for a set.

At any rate, based on what I have been told by many people with similar engines, the edelbrock heads should be able to get you your mid 11 second goal pretty easily even if they dont quite reach 650 hp.

Adam

[r8ceredy]

Man, you guys are a quite the pool of info. That engine is very close to the one I am envisioning. I already bought the Edelbrock heads and intake (got a smoking deal on racingjunk :) ) so I gotta work with them. Hopefully the smaller runner size will make the car more responsive on the street. I fiqure on an electric water pump and fan to "free"up some hp. The only parasitic drag on the engine is an underdriven power steering pump and alternator. Another question for all. Is 2" or 2 1/8" primary Hooker SuperComp headers preferrable? They make both to fit my 68 Camaro. They show a 3 1/2 collector that I will run to a dual 3" system with H pipe and QTP dumpouts. I like the Hooker Aerochamber sound so I'll probably go that way again. Looking at the engine in the previous posting I think I will need a 950cfm carb? I suppose if the car isn't quick enough there is always the juice again huh?
Thanks
http://login.dealerskins.com/sitespecific/SchepelTrucks/medialibrary/camaro1.jpg

[bjuice]

Man, you guys are a quite the pool of info. That engine is very close to the one I am envisioning. I already bought the Edelbrock heads and intake (got a smoking deal on racingjunk :) ) so I gotta work with them. Hopefully the smaller runner size will make the car more responsive on the street. I fiqure on an electric water pump and fan to "free"up some hp. The only parasitic drag on the engine is an underdriven power steering pump and alternator. Another question for all. Is 2" or 2 1/8" primary Hooker SuperComp headers preferrable? They make both to fit my 68 Camaro. They show a 3 1/2 collector that I will run to a dual 3" system with H pipe and QTP dumpouts. I like the Hooker Aerochamber sound so I'll probably go that way again. Looking at the engine in the previous posting I think I will need a 950cfm carb? I suppose if the car isn't quick enough there is always the juice again huh?
Thanks

http://login.dealerskins.com/sitespecific/SchepelTrucks/medialibrary/camaro1.jpg

is the car above the car you will put the motor in ?

i have a 67 camaro 3,000 lbs and it has a 511ci. set of worked Big Broadie heads ( never been flow bench tested so i do not have a clue what they flow). 4.375 bore 4.25 stroke callies stealth crank..

anyhow on foot brake on a set of worn out 14x32's and off the trailer so to speak, 1st time ever in the car i went a 6.07et at 115mph with a 1.39 60ft..( on pass #4). i went a 6.50et at 110mph on a 1st time ever blind pass (shakedown),,not having a clue what it would do 1st time down..

the motor (511) pulled great..after i got it dialed in i feel it will run some mid low 5.90's possibly some mid to high 80's...i have no clue what this is in the 1/4 mile...i am turning it 6800/6900 thru the traps and it still pulling hard..so i feel to squeeze everything out of it i need to be turning it 7200/7300 rpm.....i long shifted the car one pass and got into the 7400 range and i could really feel the difference in the power... i am running a 500 gear right now...so i figure a 514 to a 529 and i would be in the ball park..
i also run a glide with a 1.80 low gear

i hope this helps you decide what to run in your car with your 511

Brian

[zipper06]

(quote)
4.375 stroke 4.25 callies stealth crank..


BJ, which of the throws is 4.25 and which are 4.375. i'm just ondering if you run 2 and 2 :lol:

Zip.

[bjuice]

Heeeheee...thats good...fat fingered the computer here...4.375 BORE..4.25 stroke....two finger typer here..... :oops:


plus i do not see anything....'WHA CHO TALKIN ABIUT ZIP"?..LMAO :roll: :roll:

[edvancedengines]

This one really blew my mind in cunfusion. lol.

BJ, which of the throws is 4.25 and which are 4.375. i'm just ondering if you run 2 and 2

Zip.


Now I understand.

Ed

[bjuice]

:D :D :D ..don't lose faith in me just yet Ed...LOL
You thought we had some secret weapon here in S.C.....lol :shock: :shock:

[r8ceredy]

Yes that is my '68 Camaro SS that is finally getting a BBC back between the fenders like it had 40years ago. It had a 327 in it with a 200/4r trans when I bought it 12years ago. I played with that engine and nitrous for a while and built a 383 for it, but after a short while realized that wasn't enough (never is ENOUGH-right?). :twisted: Now the car is getting a full frame off resto so I figured it is time it gets the big block back. From earlier posts sounds like the extra clearancing the block might need to fit the 4.375 stroke (511) is not worth the marginal power boost over the 4.250 (496) stroke. BJ, how much work did it take to get your '67 to 3000#. Is it completely stripped? I plan on this car being a stone-faced sleeper as everything will look stock except the rear tires being a little larger 15X8's with ET Streets. I don't have a/c but the car will have heat, wipers and washers. I have a drop base for the air cleaner so you won't see much of the big carb. I am even going with a distributor that looks like a point type, probably a magnetic or unilite. I hid all the electronics(ignition box and shift light) in the glove box and have no big tach or other callout. The only thing I gave in to (for safety)was some 5 points that are mostly tucked under the seat when not in use and larger exhaust that still exits in the stock location. Most people would think I'm nuts or eccentric, but I love nothing more then having a car that people think is a trailered stock show car that can blow your doors off. Do I think it's the fastest thing on the road, no. There is always somebody faster. When I see that person thought I'll probably be pursuaded to go home and put the NOS plate back on........ :roll: Oh well.

[ashtrak]

This is my combo I am trying but I haven’t fired up yet. It is a 1973 4 bolt main block fitted with a 496 eagle rotating assy. SRP/JE pistons 10.0 cp. And a milodon oil pan,pump pickup and shaft. Heads are cast iron 026 rec.ports that were fitted with 2.25 in. 1.88 ex. Manley valves. Seats in heads were changed for unleaded gas. The heads were ported and flowed but I have no numbers since these were on motor when I bought the car. It has a lunatic cam and components with a lift of 685/680 with a duration of 286/296 http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/502A5LUN.pdf. The intake is team G ported to match heads with a AED 1050 pro street dominator to feed it and a 1” spacer. MSD Distributer with wires to match and a CSR 55 gal electric water pump. Headers will be made but are headman's sprit car 2 ¼” going into a 4” collector oval piping into spintech mufflers. Good Luck :wink:

[ashtrak]

:? woops fogot to add harland sharp 1.7 roller rockers with crane stud girdle and heres a pic if it will post Good Luck 8) or better yet go to ashtrak and pic of motor is there

[r8ceredy]

Ashtrak,
sounds pretty close to what I am doing. Did you have clearance issues with the block or bearings being to tight? I appreciate the help as I can go on here and hear from a ton of experienced people in a short period of time.

:arrow: I ask the audience for carb help. Is a 950cfm the "right" carb for a street/strip 496? I have heard the dominator is more difficult to tune for town cruising. As my motor is built for the 3000-7000 rpm powerband will a 4150 with no choke horn fit the bill? I have a 750cfm dp carb now and I believe that would be too small for this larger motor. Lastly, Mallory Unilite or MSD Magnet distributor? Pros/Cons? I want to build this once and be done. Thanks

[ashtrak]

Send me a p.m. with your e addy I'll try to send you all the specs i have of my build to see if this will help you 8)

[bjuice]

Yes that is my '68 Camaro SS that is finally getting a BBC back between the fenders like it had 40years ago. It had a 327 in it with a 200/4r trans when I bought it 12years ago. I played with that engine and nitrous for a while and built a 383 for it, but after a short while realized that wasn't enough (never is ENOUGH-right?). :twisted: Now the car is getting a full frame off resto so I figured it is time it gets the big block back. From earlier posts sounds like the extra clearancing the block might need to fit the 4.375 stroke (511) is not worth the marginal power boost over the 4.250 (496) stroke. BJ, how much work did it take to get your '67 to 3000#. Is it completely stripped? I plan on this car being a stone-faced sleeper as everything will look stock except the rear tires being a little larger 15X8's with ET Streets. I don't have a/c but the car will have heat, wipers and washers. I have a drop base for the air cleaner so you won't see much of the big carb. I am even going with a distributor that looks like a point type, probably a magnetic or unilite. I hid all the electronics(ignition box and shift light) in the glove box and have no big tach or other callout. The only thing I gave in to (for safety)was some 5 points that are mostly tucked under the seat when not in use and larger exhaust that still exits in the stock location. Most people would think I'm nuts or eccentric, but I love nothing more then having a car that people think is a trailered stock show car that can blow your doors off. Do I think it's the fastest thing on the road, no. There is always somebody faster. When I see that person thought I'll probably be pursuaded to go home and put the NOS plate back on........ :roll: Oh well.


Considers a full bodies stock frame car my 67 camaro has under gone extensive work..its a full tube (2x3) frame car....the front clip is also (2x3) box tube with a full cage .134 wall mild steel.....aluminum wheel tubs and tranny tunnel that has nice carpet glued down.....nine inch rear...
only fiberglass is hood...the rest is steel body with all orginal glass and door regulators for side windows..

the car weighs about 2780 without driver....so i am 2995 or 3,000 lbs depending on what i ate ..lol...

i honestly do not know how light you can get a 68..Please let us know when you find out..

good luck.

Brian

[r8ceredy]

Considers a full bodies stock frame car my 67 camaro has under gone extensive work..its a full tube (2x3) frame car....the front clip is also (2x3) box tube with a full cage .134 wall mile steel.....aluminum wheel tubs and tranny tunnel that has nice carpet glued down.....nine inch rear...
only fiberglass is hood...the rest is steel body with all orginal glass and goor regulators for side windows..

the car weighs about 2780 without driver....so i am 2995 or 3,000 lbs depending on what i ate ..lol...

i honestly do not know how light you can get a 68..Please let us know when you find out..

Well all that frame work seems to have paid off for you as I am tipping the scales around 3400# with me 3200# w/o. I'll just have to ring out a few more ponies as doing half of what you have would ruin my "stock" appearance. It's hard to make comprimises, isn't it? I truly need 2 cars, one for show and one for go. Too bad the other half would make me go if she knew what I "invest" in my hobby, a 2nd car would be a dead giveaway. Yeah I know :oops: whipped :oops: