going large

[doubler]

Hi all, was looking for advice on going to a bigger motor. I currenty have a 502 gm dart 345's dart intake 10:1 pump gas motor with nitrous in my 67 camaro stock front chassis. Car has gone 10.30's on gas and has run a 9.23 w/400 shot. I was wanting to upgrade to a 582 short deck to keep things simple but was thinking if I am going large why not go all the way. This means of course a tall deck motor. Found out Lemons says they do make headers that will work with a tall deck block with a conventional head and a big chief head in the 67-69 camaros. I don't know about putting a big chief head on this car, could be asking for more fitment issues. I don't have a lot of room with the set up I have now. I don't have any power steering/brakes or any accessories, so I am thinking this could be done with the conventional head. Should I go 622 or 632 or? What head? dart 385cc? What about the 18 degree heads from dart that you can use all the conventional parts with? Suppose to be good for about 50 hp over a 24 degree head. Want to go about 11:1 for compression for this limited street strip car.

Shaffirof has a 632/900 and a 632/1000hp big chief Ultra street motor. Anyone recommend these ultra street engines? Anybody here that has put a tall deck motor in a 67-69 camaro stock front chassis? Oh, I have the big cowl hood. I am tempted to get the 632/900 motor just don't know if I am asking for trouble. Surely someone here has done this. Thanks for any advice...

[woodsman]

First thing welcome to the forums an Racing Junk. Now this is JMO if you are working on a budget for sure go with the 582 cid that will make life easy. If your not on a budget then go with the 632 cid and be ready for a lot of shop work and things to happen that you did not fore see in your install because it will happen. Hope that helps.

[cepx111]

Dont give up this keep checking, these things usually take a few days to get going and its raceday tomorrow so hang in there.
I've never personally done what your asking so I cant give you any of the info you are looking for. I'm currently building a 496 for my 69 camaro tube chassis dragcar its my first venture with a stroker motor and its been expensive and slow going due to my budget restrictions and this deep south heat wave. Sounds like you have deep pockets so I'd go for the 1000hp 632 but I think that shaffirof has had missed reviews here if I'm not mistaken, so be cautious. I'm sure you'll be enlightened either way. We tend to be a opinionated bunch, but we mean well. Welcome to the forum and Goodluck, Charles

[Racefab57]

hi, seems like all good reviews from reher-morrison r.e. ,if you want a big motor, talk to them!! my thoughts!!!! David.

[lmchevy]

Check out Ohio Crankshaft they have a complete 620 for $10,000.

[bjuice]

Hello Doubler ..what part of the country you from ?..this will help us pair you up with the best engine builder..
i can already tell you some of the ELITE group that you can bank on Getting your $$ worth.
Texas area- Rhear Morrison
Alabama Area- Eagle Race Engines- They use to build ex-Pro mod Scotty Cannons motor's after the Fulton/Cannon fall out years ago.
Northern/Southern EAST coast- PAR racing engines.AWESOME !!...the owner is Scott Duggins....Or FULTON RACE ENGINES..Gene Fulton is the man AND HAS BEEN FOR YEARS but i feel 120% you can get the same quality and performance motor from PAR a few grand cheaper....IN MY OPINION a man is paying a little for the FULTON NAME these days and PROBABLY RIGHTFULLY SO..Gene has earned that right

these 4 engine builders could service you from Middle USA back to East coast...YOU ALMOST NEVER HEAR ANY NEGATIVE FEEDBACK ABOUT THEM.

i WOULD BE VERY CAREFUL With Anyone else..obviously if your looking at a 632ci your funds will allow you to be a little more choosy..
if i can help you with Fulton or Par telephone # please let me know.

Brian

[doubler]

Thanks for the welcome and cepx111 I do have a budget. But when I look at what I get from GM 572 for around 12-13k and then I look at what I can get with quality parts for a few thousand more it's worth it in the long run. I want a good crank and rods and gotta have some jesels or T&D's. They have made a few improvements over the years. The good stuff cost a certain amount and I am not willing to cut to many corners. If I can upgrade the rods to the Olivers on this build and keep it around my budget I will try. I figure or am willing to spend around 20k plus or minus a couple to get what I want. Besides, I keep breaking this 502 so if you count my labor I should have done this a while back! I want one of these motor that I keep hearing about that all you have to do is check the valves a couple of times and change the oil after 300 runs. I can get a deal on a Schmidt 632 nitrous motor for 35k but that is out of my range. And after just getting back from Hot August Nights, now that is some serious bling on some of those cars!

Bjuice, I am in the northwest part of the country but I did send my heads and intake in last winter to RM and bought a 7/4 cam and crower rollers. When I did talk to them about building a lower compression type motor for the "street" they said I couldn't do much better than what I had. They did say they would build me what I want but I didn't get a good feeling about it. It seemed liked they had there super series combo and weren't really into a custom motor. But I got a flyer from them and they are building street motors now so I was going to talk to them again. They are on my list of engine builders to talk to. My main concern is to find some one that as installed a tall deck motor in a 67 camaro and used a good size header. If I can find out this is possible I think I am going to go big!

Has anyone heard of stroker engines in California? He has a pretty good deal on a 620/900 hp 10/5 motor. http://www.strokerengine.com/BBC620.html
Looks like all good parts in it. What do you guys think of the 2 632 motors on Shaffirof site? I know that he has good and bad reviews here but was wondering about his combos...what do you think about the big chief heads for the "street"? I thought those heads were for upper rpm but I looked at the dyno sheet on their motor it was 6500 max. I would attach it but don't see how to do it...

[bjuice]

i have studied the SSRE site for a long time and have been very tempted in the past...but due to the feed back (neg) i have read..i personally DO NOT feel 100% comfortable for the amount of money you are looking at spending..Plus at the price they are selling their stuff you cannot be getting any custom work..they are templating these motors and shipping them out...they have to do this in order to sell so cheap....do not get me wrong i feel 100% you are getting good parts etc..but its being slapped together and wherever the tolerances fall thats where it is..

My cousin purchased a 565ci PAR motor last year and he has over 300 passes on this motor and doesn't do anything but change the oil..he hasn't even changed plugs in the thing all year long ( against my judgement).....he runs a bracket series every Friday and Saturday night,,round after round,after round...His car weighs 3100 with him in it and runs 5.60's all day long with a low et of 5.58...11 inch tire.....the motor has shown no signs of slowing down...
Par uses the newer Oval port head..

Sounds to me you done been a around a little and know your way around pretty good..i have owned several camaro's and own a 67 and 69 now but no tall deck motors in either...

good luck to you in what ever route you decide to go.

[doubler]

bjuice, when I decide on what motor (short or tall deck) to build I will pm you for par's info. Can't seem to find a web site or anything for him, but lots of good news on his motors. Am I close on the price for what I am trying to do? Thanks for the info...

[bjuice]

yes you are VERY close on the price...thats why i am pointing you his direction...for the money you are about to spend,,why not go with a TRUE custom engine....plus i have no doubts you will be extremely happy with the results..

b]Par's custom built 565's and 582's (low deck) motors will run better than some of these mass manufactured 600+ ci motors being sold this day and time..[/b]

PAR owners name is SCOTT DUGGINS....they do not have all the internet sited etc....its all word of mouth..SUPER NICE GUYS.....
His number is 864-578-5622

you also have to know that PAR and Fulton's shops are less than 30 minutes from each other..so he has some stiff competition to compete with on a day to day basis..

Brian


Brian

[FAT622]

Has any body delt with Awsome Engines? I am from Australia and am looking at buying a 622ci rotating assemblie through them. just wondering what there service and products are like.

cheers.

[woodsman]

FAT622 try this web site and you can ask him to send you parts so you will get them ronowensracing.com check with him first may save you some heart aches

[bjuice]

whewwww...LMAO....Sorry this is an inside thing..those that were here 3 or so years ago is laughing with me right now........


YeS i have heard of AWESOME ENGINES...



...any old timers wanna go there ?

Brian

[gdmii]

Not even for "old times sake"!!

George

[topsportsman1]

Not even for "old times sake"!!

George

I'd have to agree here,its best left alone
:roll:
Tom

[edvancedengines]

Of the ones that have been mentioned, there are only two of those that I will strongly discourage against using. One is high dollar and the other is a cheapie. There is also another cheapie that has not yet been suggested.

I will send this info you you by a Pm instead of posting it because last time I posted about one of these the reaction from a few was that I was trash talking another builder to try to steal the business. Those who know me, know better. I never trash anyone. I am not a trash talker. Facts are facts though and what one of the named High Dollar Professional Builders did to two different engines and against what was best for the customers made me mad at the time and I still feel my blood boiliong when they get mentioned in referrals.

I will let anyone know who sends me PM though.

Right here in this Forum are some very accomplished Engine Builders, that do not sell crate engines but do build and sell custom engines of all descriptions, of which I feel I am one. I do feel I am with some very high caliber company here with these guys.

Ed

[FAT622]

this is what i am after,
4.56 x 4.75 rotator
11:1 comp
cam shaft to suit (solid roller)
email me if you are interested and i will give you all the details
[email protected]

cheers

[denn468]

i can tell you from experiance that ssre scott shafiroff are good people they are very friendly and if there is a question or a problem they will work it out i was in the same boat as you are i run a 468 and wanted to go bigger i build all my motors myself but i met a guy on this site from indiana we were talking he and all his buddies run 598s from ssre he assured me they are top notch people so i took his advice and bought a 540 bbc with dart big m block jessels the whole kit and kaboodle and let me tell ya what i could not build that motor myself for what i paid for it and let me tell you one thing a motor is only as good as the money you put in it you can buy a motor with srp pistons and ohio crankshaft rotaters for dirt cheap but dont expect to live very long an old saying is you only get out what you put in dont be cheap do it right by the way the ssre 540 put my 3640 lb car on the bumper and still ran 970 good luck

[doubler]

I am really getting confused on head choices for this big of a motor. Seems like most people recommend going to a big chief style head at that cubic inch. Then there is the reliability issue of the valve train question. What do you think of this post I found?

I would strongly recommend that if you are going to the trouble building a 632 to run decent heads (ie BIG CHIEF or RFE or something serious). There are diminishing returns after 540 to go with a conventional head. The difference in power can be 100 or more. I ran the BB4's on the dyno before I went big duke and it WAS 100 more horsepower and didn't give up any power down low.

About the funky valve angles - buy the offset lifters - the pushrods are moved slightly off center to improve the geometry. I had zero problems with that on the street. The weak link will always be the roller lifters anyways, the valvetrain is a TANK if you go big chief/jesel.

Here is the link http://www.chevelles.com/forums/printthread.php?t=93327

I hope I am not opening up a can of worms here, I am just trying to learn.
I want to make the right choice and am looking for more opinions. I think the very least I should do is the 18* Oval Dart 383 head...

Thanks all...

[edvancedengines]

There is no best head.

There are cylinder heads that will work better in certain applications than others will.

I suggest to stay away from the bigger is better ideas of what head flows the most and is bigger.

There are 24 degree conventional heads for the Bb Chevy that are awsium and willl produce tons of power at racing levels of 2,000 hp. That is with a lot of extra porting though. At those power levels no matter what you start with they requre lots of work.

Most of the cylinder head mfg offer different sizes in their popular heads for a reason and that reason is to try to fit known different applications.

There are no valvetrain reliability issues with eiter the many spread port designs or the aftermarket conventional designs if the higher quality components are used. You will not be able to use just regular quality studs and rockers with any head except for those made for lower powered applications, to my knowledge.

There is power to be had with more stable valvetrains but they do cost quite a lot more money.

Reliability is not an issue. Cost of the components are the issue.

I do not insist on T&D (my preference) or Jesel on everything I build. I usually do strongly suggest them in major power racing applications, or in certain engines. I just recently completed a 602 cu n Ford that we were stuck with using stud mount rockers becuase of the budget and it is a 1,500 hp nitrous enging. Hp is estimted based on the nitrous it is designed to handle vs dyno N/A power. I would much have preferred to use T&D shaft rockers and I know we would have gotten more power.

As someone mentioned, Lifters are an issue of reliability when the power levels go up. When we use professional springs the common garden Crane, Comp etc roller lifters are out of the picture. We need better. Better is more money. In most applications the very high dollar Jesel and LSM is not needed, in my opinion, but the Speciality lifters are.

Sorry I still am not recommending any certain cylinder head. By what I think you are talking about many of the conventionals should work ok. Don't go for the big runner ports with high flow numbers though.

The problem with asking and receiving internet tech advice is you receive at times very good advice and at other times bogus advice that sounds good to the advisor but is not real world. Bigger in cubic inches is better, usually. Bigger in heads cams etc are not always better.

Ed

[doubler]

Thanks Ed, I hope to learn more tommorrow when I make some phone calls. You have to admit though there is "plethora" of choices out there confusing us guys that have not built an engine this big. It would be much easier to build a 565 and go with the Dart 355's as they seem to work good and a lot of engine builders seem to use.

Anyways, I will start big and then be talked down... :lol:

[cboggs]

I can offer some experience with the head issue, ..

First, .. if it's a limited street, .. just go ahead and put some
compression in it, .. 15:1, .. you're giving up too much to use
a fuel that doesn't belong in a $20K engine.

a GOOD 24* conventional style head will make well over 1000 hp
on an engine this size with a race style build, ..
but a good spread port will be better.

We build an Edelbrock 24* with a 2.4" intake valve that does this, ..
http://www.racingjunk.com/post/923176/BBC-Edelbrock-Victor-CnC.html
but a Good Brodix 1803 with a CnC port will make around 70 more, ..

and if you go to a well ported Dart 11* and 15.1 comp you'll be able
to make 1250 - 1300, ..

As far as chamber and valve angles, like the Dart 18*.
the primary performance gain is in the chamber and flame travel, ..
smaller dome etc. In a 11:1 engine I don't think you'll see much
difference between Dart's 24* and 18* heads because you're not taking
advantage of the better head.

Now with conventional 24* VS a spread / raised port style head
like a 14* Dart big chief you will see a difference because of
the more efficient port design and port velocity profiles, ..

Curtis

[doubler]

Thanks curtis, yes it is limited street and I have been mulling over the compression as it doesn't see much street use. Just drive it to a car show and some short cruises. So, its not like I am filling up with race gas every week. Some day I would like to get it into Hot August Nights...that would be a blast.

The reason I was thinking of going large was that was the only way I can make the hp I want with lower compression. It takes about 900-950 to get a 3500lb car in the low 9's. Mine weighs 3200. It will take 1100+ to get in the 8.50 heads up class. I wanted to try and get has close as I could so I don't have to run a lot of nitrous. 250 shot or less...I was planning on running 100LL playing on the street and race gas on race day. I might be able to go a little higher cr with the 100LL or I could mix some race gas with it. Anyways, it would be a lot easier if I would just move up in compression.

On Shaffiorfs 632's there is a 100hp difference between the conventional and 18* head at 10.75...just throwing that out.

[cboggs]

On Shaffiorfs 632's there is a 100hp difference between the conventional and 18* head at 10.75...just throwing that out.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to advertisments, ..

you have goals that are at each end of the chain, .. street and heads up ?

Curtis

[doubler]

I have a friend that has a RM 555 in his camaro runs low 9's. He drives it on the street once in awhile. I wouldn't call it a street car either, but would like to do something close to that. They aren't driven very many miles on the street. At those power levels, can't be very streetable. Anyways, those were some goals I was thinking the car could fit into that class someday, since I want to upgrade my 502 700hp pump gas motor which is not all that streetable either. Maybe my goals are not realistic...Car has run a 9.23, so didn't think what I am trying to do is to far out.

I can see why people do buy the GM572 now though. Too many decisions to make. Just buy it and install it and be done with it. I still don't feel you are getting much motor for your money though and not much hp. There was a post over at speed talk about pump gas motors and one said they got 850hp from a 572/10.2 motor. Sounds a little high for that cr...

I have my Dart 345 pro1 heads (fresh), but don't think they would work that good on a big motor?

[dak697]

if you are in the Northwest of the country have you tried PED or Davidson Racing Engines .. Both builders have a good name in the NW for race car stuff. There is also Madcap which I've seen have pretty good results on their top dragster/sportsman stuff. Dean