crankshaft height

[meister]

what is the correct height for an outlaw 10.5 car?

[mcracecars]

there really is no "correct hight" for engine placement, lower and farther back is better to a point, but most cars have limiting factors, frame xmembers, firewall, rule restrictions...
what kind of car and what are you trying to do....

[meister]

I was told that my motor was too low in the car and wondering if I should raise it. It is about 13.5 in. center of crank. It is a 67 Camaro Outlaw 10.5 car

[mcracecars]

13.5 too low..... who was the Einstine that told you that?? :shock:

what you got for suspension, give more info on the car.....much more....

[bjuice]

exactley what i was thinking ED..my 67 Camaro is lower than this by a few inches.

Brian

[sailplane]

i am confused. i thought you wanted the engine as high as posible for better wieght transfer to rear wheels. could sombody clerify

[edvancedengines]

Higher engine moves center of gravity of the mass up which will give additional weight transfer to the rear when accellerating forward.

Moving engine and center of mass up will also raise center of gravity which can possibly negatively affect high speed handling if taken to the extremes, which is why now the NHRA rule book has placed a maximum limit of how high the crank can be from the ground. Pro Stock engines are very low to the ground.

When you move the weight mass upwards it has effect on the suspension settings as well, which can decrease the initial force of suspension reaction to the rear tires or decrease tire hit. So it is a trade off.

If you keep all bars the same and move weight up the bars will hit the tires less but the weight transfer will be greater once the car has begun accellerating and as the front comes up even more weight is transfered to the rear tires.

At times you see this happening in cars but not everyone is aware of why the front wheels keep climbing as the car is going further down track with the cars with high horsepower. It is the weight transfer keeps increasing to the rear the further up the weight mass goes and the quicker the car accellerates the high weight mass will tranfer to the rear even more which keeps the front up. lol.

I think I will come back and copy this and add it to my Chassis Article. Maybe someone would be hleped some by understanding why this happens. Man I wish I could think of and remember everything when I am trying to write articles.

Ed

[sailplane]

wow thanks ed. i guess i never thought about the rest of the track. just the launch. daaa lol :lol:

[Bubstr]

Ed is exactly right. Another thing. Once the front wheels have reached a point where the last one up is putting no presure on the strip, you have 100% weight transfer. Any more weight transfer is impossible. 100% is all there is no mater how high you go. Going higher usually just results in a damaged pan.

[edvancedengines]

Bubstr,
I believe you are incorrect but will not argue. I will try to explain my point and theory about this though. If I am wrong, then I am wrong.

I do believe it is possible to transfer more weight than you actually have by the force caused by the increased acceleration.

If the car was motionless and not moving forward at a rapid rate of acceleration, I would be 100% in agreement with you. It isn't. The mass is rapidly accelerating in a vector that is moving in a forward and upward direction when it would prefer to remain where it is and motionless. As the mass gets higher it becomes heavier to a point and is trying harder to go back to where it began moving, which means the mass of weight is transfering backward at the weight of the entire car but also add the rate of the weight mass at an increasingly higher center of gravity accelerating.

Maybe Mr. Billy can calculate an example of this. I can't I am a dummer.

Ed

[BillyShope]

Yes, rear tire loading on launch can exceed the total weight of the car. Unfortunately, this lasts for only a few milliseconds and...to make matters worse...is preceded by a few milliseconds of decreased loading.

An extreme example would be a car with severe squat and very low rate springs at the front. The rear of the car goes down and the front pops up. In other words, the whole car is pitching (rotating). At the beginning of this pitch motion, the rotating inertia of the car in pitch is overcome by a moment generated through the front and rear tire patches. This moment is opposite in direction to that associated with weight transfer and is therefore "hurting" performance. As the car's pitch approaches its extreme position (maximum squat and maximum front end rise), the car's angular velocity must be brought to zero. The inertia again comes into play, but, this time, the moment is in a direction favorable to rear tire loading and it is at this time that it is possible for rear tire loading to exceed the total weight of the car. Again, we're talking milliseconds for this "extra" loading. (Typical pitch inertia for a 3000 pound car is 6.5 million pounds mass inches squared.)

And, a bit of history on that NHRA crankshaft height rule: Although I can't prove it, I don't...for a minute...swallow the "safety" excuse. As you old timers might recall, it was the Ramchargers' C/A that started the "higher is better" theme. (This was due to the poor slicks available at the time and is certainly unwarranted today.) The car became so dominant in its class that, when they showed up at a strip, the Chevy-powered cars would often not run as a way of protest, claiming that it wasn't fair that they should have to run against a "factory" car. This didn't make the strip owners very happy, as they had probably featured the presence of the Ramchargers in their ads. Anyway, I don't know if it was pressure from the strip owners or from GM, but, at the same time this "safety" rule was passed, another change was made to lower the pounds per cubic inch number for C/A which, of course, allowed the Ramchargers' records to be taken by GM-powered cars.

[lively]

BILLY----I WILL SECOND THAT RAMCHARGER STATEMENT---THAT IS WHY THE GASSERS MOVEMENT CAME OFF THAT SAME THEORY 8) 8) --HIGH SUSPENSION AND ALTERED WHEELBASE MADE TRACTION BUT AT TIMES SCARY RACING!!!! :? :? :lol:----I JUST LOVE IT---- LIVELY

[edvancedengines]

Hey Mr. Billy,
Post a pic of that thing. Post one of the ones you sent to me. It was really far out for it's time in history. Also I don't remebr exactly which years it set the C/A Records. I know it was way before the Super/Stock wars.

If you will look deepr into that last post of mine and see if in your opinion my theory about the constant rising center of gravity as the car goes higher and higher as it goes down track is making any sense to you.

Some of these Nitrous and Turbo cars continue to climb the further down track they go. I know of drivers while they are in the air tapping their foot on the brakes in attempts to bring the front down but still stay on the pedal becuase they still are trying to win a race.

This seems to happen more in the radial tire cars that have to dead hook to launch. It also does happen with a few of the Outlaw 10.5 cars too though. It gets to a point like almost the front weighs nothing until it comes down again.

Care to comment?

Ed

[lively]

ED--THERE IS A POINT OF BALANCE AT SPEED THAT HAPPENS ON MOTORCYCLES AS WELL AS CARS---WHEN I WAS A YOUNG BOY I USE TO PULL WHEELES ON MY STINGRAY BIKE AND COULD FIND A SPOT AT SPEED TO KEEP THE FRONT BALANCED FOR LOOOONG DISTANCES AT TIMES---SAME WITH A DRAG CAR --DON'T KNOW THE FORMULA TO PROVE THIS BUT HAVE SEEN IT MYSELF IN RACE CARS---THERE IS PURE TRACTION BUT VERY LITTLE CONTROL :shock: :shock: :shock: -LIVELY

[BillyShope]

Okay, Ed, here's a picture:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j89/BillyShope/1960HM-Trophies002.jpg

They were setting and resetting the speed and ET records in '60 and '61.

As for your comments, I can only say that, for a "normal" car, the acceleration is a maximum on launch and then decreases during the run. For a AA/FD, with that big wing providing more tire loading, the acceleration increases at the top end. For a full discussion of "blowovers" and the forces acting on the car during launch, I'd recommend readers take a look at "Getting Started" (Page 1) of:

[BillyShope]

A clone of the car pictured above was recently built by employees of Chrysler Daimler as a tribute to the Ramchargers. The original was parted out as a result of the crankshaft height rule. The clone presents the car as it first appeared...in primer...at the '59 Nationals. (Best speed in its class first time on the strip.) The picture below was taken at the 2007 Woodward Avenue Dream Cruise. If you look closely, you'll see that the exhaust cones are at a slightly smaller angle than the original. Other than that, it would be difficult to find any difference. Of course, original Ramchargers living in the Detroit area oversaw the reconstruction and kept it authentic.

The fellow in the white t-shirt MIGHT be Pete McNichol, but I'm reading an awful lot into very little information. (Pete garnered quite a few NHRA records in different classes, but with the same 170 cube slant six.) Don't recognize the old timer on the right. Probably just a spectator.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j89/BillyShope/woddities2cjt---6.jpg

[edvancedengines]

Mr Billy,
A few unrelated questions. (Thread Hi-jack)
Who is still left from the Ramchargers Team?
Was Al Eckstrand a part of the team or independent with factory help?
Did the Ramchargers and the Golden Commandos share in information or share anything and were they friends?
Was the 2% cars your idea?
Was the heavy filled tires your idea?
Was the extra weight added up real high your idea?
Was the thin lightweight trunk lids your idea?
Did the High & Mighty have a 354 cu in or smaller?
Were you at Cecil County in 1965 the night the Injected Car ran into the 8's as the first 8 second doorslammer? I was there that night.
We had tons of match racers there.

Ed

[BillyShope]

Mr Billy,
A few unrelated questions. (Thread Hi-jack)
Who is still left from the Ramchargers Team?
To my knowledge, all but one of the original group are still around. Of course, at our age, a day-to-day check is probably necessary.
Was Al Eckstrand a part of the team or independent with factory help?
No, he was not a part of the Ramchargers, but he definitely received factory help. Chrysler has been "helping" since Arnie Beswick's D-501.
Did the Ramchargers and the Golden Commandos share in information or share anything and were they friends?
Any competition would have been on the friendliest of terms and, yes, they definitely shared information.
Was the 2% cars your idea?
No.
Was the heavy filled tires your idea?
No. Probably Barnes Daniels. He used a concrete-filled continental kit in his E-Gasser.
Was the extra weight added up real high your idea?
Now, this is an interesting question. I was discussing the problem with either Dick Burke or Fred Gluckson and we were talking, specifically, about the moment created by the inertial force when our eyes "lit up" at essentially the same time: Of course! We can't do anything about the overall weight, but we can certainly increase the moment by raising the CG!
Was the thin lightweight trunk lids your idea?
No.
Did the High & Mighty have a 354 cu in or smaller?
It was a 354 with 392 heads. Now, I know someone is going to say that the 354 heads are better. All I can say is that this was done with the knowledge and consent of Tom Hoover. The clone, incidentally, has a 392, but it will only be allowed exhibition runs, anyway.
Were you at Cecil County in 1965 the night the Injected Car ran into the 8's as the first 8 second doorslammer? I was there that night.
We had tons of match racers there.


Ed
No. By that time, I was working for the General. I had gone back to school for a couple of years and then taught at the General Motors Institute.

[Bubstr]

Now I have a tear in my beer over days gone by. I remember them days too. Took my first car to the strip in 58. A 49 ford business coupe, with the flat head.

I feel sorry for the youngsters. Bore job 4 dollars a hole solid lifters a buck a piece Offenhouser heads 59.99 a pair. A good seasoned block from the bone yard A few bucks and you was a racer.

Billy tell them, back then it was illegal to have a locked or welded rear, although we both know there was a few of them around. The big money and bracket racing took the fun out of it kinda.

[edvancedengines]

Bubstr,

(off topic post)
People now will never know the excotement of two dragsters/roadsters/coups etc pushing down to fire up and them coughing to life at the last minute. If they didn't fire that was it the ball game was done and you lost.

The 1964 1965 and up Match Race wars with wheels up burnouts through the rosin or the bleach. Dandy Dick Landy doing high wheelies during burnouts and then the front weels barely coming up in the race. Don Nickolson's Comet with long rear wheel opening so they could move the rear forward or backward to tweek it in to the tracks. That was neat. Carried several different length driveshafts with tem and the rear subframe was movable with the 2 x 3 Rectangular ATorque Bars weled to the housing.

AA/Fuel Roadsters doing 4 wheel wheelies. or blazsing the tires 3/4 of the track. Fuelies smoking 3/4 track with high gear only using an in and out box.

None of those only fun times are seen now. They were unforgettable and exciting.

Ed

[mytmouz]

Fuelers doing fire burnouts...

[zipper06]

I am one who can certianly remember all those days/things. I can remember when Cris the greek ran the first unoffical 200MPH at Oswego drag strip, he was running Hydozine and totally illegal.
i believe the first concrete continenal tire (mounted in the trunk lid)that i ever saw was on Goerge Montgomerys' 34 willy's with a blown cattilac motor and that was in 1958 at US 30 drag strip in Ind. I knew Austin coil when he was running out of Mr Norms dealership Forconis,Memic and Coil, who converted most of the Dodge hemis for Crysler. I built my first blow car in 1964 with the parts purcheased from Kenny Herraita (Lowel Ind.) aka Herraita & Hobbs (spelled wrong i'm sure), I also remember sneaky Pete Robison who would spot the Hemi's a car length and still out run them with a s/blk chevy, But i also remember some bad times, like when my friend Chuck Suba, driving the checkmate dragster hit the barrel covering the finish line lights at Rockford drag strip killing him instantly. Days gone by were great and i'm glad to have been there, but i'm also glad that we now have much better cars and the safty is 1000 times better than those days.

Zip.

[BillyShope]

I had just started work, in '57, at Chrysler Central Engineering in Highland Park and stopped to get gas a few blocks from work. As the fellow came out to serve me (no self service then), I noticed the owner's name above the doorway of the station. I told the guy that a fellow by that name drove a AA/FD. Turns out that Setto Postoian was the fellow pumping gas into my car.

In the years to come, I noticed the pickup from that gas station inside the gates of Central Engineering more than a few times. At that time, Chrysler sold the engines after dyno testing and I imagine that's how Setto picked up some hemis for his dragster. (GM's policy was to destroy all dyno tested engines.)

[Bubstr]

I seen that Arnie the Farmer Beswick was racing at Cordova IL.Tomorrow Sat. Wonder if the old guy still backs to the staging light before the smoke clears. Nostalgia funny cars I think. Austin was a lot skinnier them days. lol wheren't we all.

Zippy, did you ever run the Street or Comp eliminator shows at Byron or Cordova IL.?

[zipper06]

Zippy, did you ever run the Street or Comp eliminator shows at Byron or Cordova IL.?[/quote]

Absolutely i did, i ran Rockford lots of times. My car was a 56 t'bird with a blown 365 cu in s/blk chevy called bird of paradise. I ran it from 1965/1968 at Rockford, Union Grove and Oswego it ran A/Modified sports and B/gas. I was friends of Palmer Laserus and his 1941 willys. I used to get my tires from the Gusler Top fuel team after they had put a few passes on them. I remeber most of the old time racers, including beswick when he was running the Pontiac, the 34 ford coupe called little screamer, etc. In those days the top fuel and alterds use to push start down from the top end to the start line. My car wasn't fast by todays standards, but it ran 10.30's at 140mph, which was fast in those days

Zip.

[BillyShope]

I remember a couple of things from watching Arnie run at Cordova.

Most of us had yet to learn how to gear a car for the quarter, but we got an idea of what worked as we watched Arnie in his Dodge D-501. He'd be wound out in first almost within spitting distance!

And, in match races there at his home strip (I think he's part owner), he had a distinct advangage as it appeared the flagman raised his flag as Arnie left. Or, maybe he was just good at anticipating.

Also, there was a crippled fella who would bring a very fast Pontiac from the Chicago area. Don't know his name or whatever happened to him. Anybody?

[Bubstr]

I always though Bob Bartell owned Cordova. He was a retired Policeman from Moline IL. The drag strip was started with donations to get the kids off the street racing. If you payed attention, the flagman always moved his right foot before he pulled the flag. Shhhhhhhhhhhh, The tree kinda ruined that home field advantage. They say Cordova is the oldest continual running strip in the country, and the World series of Dragracing was one of the big events of the year.

[BillyShope]

Thought I might clear up what I meant by a "Dodge D-501" as it's an interesting bit of dragracing trivia. This might have been the first factory car designed strictly for stock class dragracing, as I am pretty sure it wasn't NASCAR legal (though I might be mistaken).

It was a '56 Dodge 2 door business coupe with the Chrysler 354 hemi. (I just did a bit of googling and discovered that a few '57 D-501's were built with the 392 dual quad engine, including a convertible with a heater and automatic for some Chrysler exec. Also, it appears I was probably wrong with regard to my NASCAR comment above.)

[zipper06]

Hey Billie,
since you were in the Chgo area in the late 50's and 60's do you remember a guy by the name of Al Mc Kenzie, he ran 2 1953 blown Catillac's and trying desperately trying to get into the 11's, he eventaully ran low 11's with one of the cars. I grew up a couple blks from him and worked at a gas station in my teens. He bought his parts from Geo Montgomery. That's really how i got into racing super charged cars. The gas station i worked at was owned by Mit's and Tod Uno, also top fuel racers on the N. side by Lincoln park, they were also cousins the Kenny Herriata.
Long story short, that's when Hydro Bob first came up with the stall converter on the earlier Hydro 4 sp from Olds and that was my first trans in my t'bird, it had about 3,000 stall and probably slipped atleast 20% on top end.
I never ventured down to Cardova/Coal city, but i think Dennis is right it's one of the oldest track in operation.
I think you are right about Chryser giving out engines, and i think the Speed Sport roadster, which was ran out of Speed Sport on the south side was also getting some of those hemi's.
Man i'm glad i only have old times desease and still have my mermories.
I remember the cripple guy in the pontiac but for the life of me i can't remember his name, but he did play hell with the 409 chevies.

Zip.

[BillyShope]

Can't help you with the Chicago memories. Before I moved to the Detroit area, I stayed pretty much west of Cordova.

The first hydros had a fluid coupling, not a converter, but the slip principles remain the same. (In the industry, they lump them together as "hydrodynamic drives.")

Glad you remembered the fellow in the Pontiac. I was just curious.

[Bubstr]

Since we swiped this tread and are probably boring the Hey out of the young fellas here, we may as well go on.

I remember the guy in the wheel chair, think he had something to do with a A/D or B/D later at Byron IL. But I don't remember his name either.

Used to get parts from Hydro Bob, couldn't believe it he had a bunch of row house's garages for a shop, but was good at what he did. I can remember him saying, I know I have clutch fingers for that front pump, then whipping out his keys and going down the alley three doors and sure enough there they where. We was running a Clutch turbo at that time, after a disastrous hole making incident with a clutch Flight. He was a lot of help. He was so well known as Hydro Bob, that I don't think anyone knew his last name.

[Tod74]

Those have to be the ugliest cars ever on a dragstrip.

[peeworm]

i personaly would love to sit and read stories like this all day i find it very interesting as i am only 33 yrs old but i realy like to hear about the good old days lol kep up the good work guys.