Big block or Small block

[tommynos]

this is the debate we have had on our forum,so lets see how close this actually is on this forum,the votes were sort of "tainted"by a one(camaro74454)he loves the big blocks and im a small block guy,i dont care if i was filthy rich, im still a small block guy,i like power from the unexspected.....

ill run a poll,if you have info on why,post it up :D

[camaro74454]

Hahahaha, silly fool you will lose here even more then there...They don't play here...Welcome to the home of the big boys...This is going to be great.....oh I voted Big Block.

[aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

Bigger Big blocks are better than small big blocks so small blocks dont compare. Plus a big block just sounds better. :shock:

[bjuice]

ha ha ha ..i love it..the oldest debate in history of racing..almost as good as Chevy vs Ford..
i was a small block guy all my life until 4 years ago and mind you i am into my 40's...well i got my 1st BBC (511 CI) and fell in love...this thing will pull effortless compared to my older small block's.....since then i have aquired a 632 all aluminum Big Block Big chief Motor..sheet metal intake with a pair of Chuck Nugtten dominaters....Although i have not run this motor yet i did watch it run in a 3300 lb vette with a 410 gear and 33 inch talls tires on a PITIFUL TRACK and it ran a 5.01et at 142mph...

keep in mind i have a 2100 lb car and a 4.30 gear...SO WHAT WILL IT RUN ???????


i did have one of the baddest ( my opinion) steel headed small blocks alcohol injected motors on the east coast a couple of years back..it made 1,000 hp at 9% over drive and could have been squeezed a little more...


so there is no replacement for displacement..i am a BBC man for life.

Brian

[tommynos]

well this is my dream motor,a 400 twin turbo 1st gen :shock: if i tell you this car had a small block and then layed the smack down on most cars,thats a surprise...

if i tell you i have a big block,your exspecting me to win...its like being a world champion,imo,i dont think its easy defending the tittle when someone can sneak up and take it.... :P
http://camaroforums.hqforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=478
this is my dream motor...

i like the sleepers,my 6 banger runs with most big blocks,and its untuned...(of course it took out my camaro to :D )but it wont happen again...

[tommynos]

ha ha ha ..i love it..the oldest debate in history of racing..almost as good as Chevy vs Ford..
i was a small block guy all my life until 4 years ago and mind you i am into my 40's...well i got my 1st BBC (511 CI) and fell in love...this thing will pull effortless compared to my older small block's.....since then i have aquired a 632 all aluminum Big Block Big chief Motor..sheet metal intake with a pair of Chuck Nugtten dominaters....Although i have not run this motor yet i did watch it run in a 3300 lb vette with a 410 gear and 33 inch talls tires on a PITIFUL TRACK and it ran a 5.01et at 142mph...

keep in mind i have a 2100 lb car and a 4.30 gear...SO WHAT WILL IT RUN ???????


i did have one of the baddest ( my opinion) steel headed small blocks alcohol injected motors on the east coast a couple of years back..it made 1,000 hp at 9% over drive and could have been squeezed a little more...


so there is no replacement for displacement..i am a BBC man for life.

Brianim guessing your car is going to be a monster,so make sure to vote for small block :lol: at least for old time sakes...

[camaro74454]

To late..he voted...Why not pick the TT big block there?...
Man you'r losin 4to 1 I love it....See I told you once you go big block you never look back.

[mytmouz]

I like big little 'uns...

[SST4530]

I kind of like RAT poison myself! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[jbsjunk]

Bigger Big blocks are better than small big blocks so small blocks dont compare. Plus a big block just sounds better. :shock:

I don't know there. One race I was at, there were a couple old Ford Thunderbolt look alikes racing. I swear they were leaving the tree at 10K. Sounded wicked as hell. Almost makes a Chevy guy drool. :shock:

[lively]

SMALL BLOCK GUY---THE SURPRISE IN THERE EYES IS WELL WORTH IT!!!- :P :P --I HAVE HAD SBF/SBC/SBM/BBC/BBF/BBM---THEY ARE ALL GREAT BUT WHEN MY SBF TURNED 8000 RPM'S/THE SOUNDS ARE GREAT---SAME WITH THE SBC THE SOUND IS GREAT---I HAVE LOST TO BIG BLOCKS AT THE TOP END 1/4 MILE :roll: :roll: BUT NOT ALWAYS---RACERS CHOICE!!!!---BUT THEN I AM A FORD MAN :lol: :lol:

[sommersracing]

Small blocks all the way. Big blocks are for towing. LOL! :lol:

[tommynos]

Small blocks all the way. Big blocks are for towing. LOL! :lol:i love your thinking :lol: looks like we are tied up... :D

[woodsman]

Tommy I have had SBC all my life and never had a BBC till now but I think I will be a BBC man for the last half of my life. 565" RMRE ALL THE WAY.

[Murff]

I voted little block, but then I'm already a mutant here because I'm a Ford guy.

Murff

[camaro74454]

Man we need some more big block votes... I'm bringin blade over.

[lotsof454sss]

Since my user id kinda gives it away as to my vote I will wait to see if we need a tie breaker :lol: but I also have some bad "little blocks" :P ...

[camaro74454]

With all the big blocks I thought this would be a clean easy win.....silly little small blocks, we'll come from behind.

[bjuice]

OK...who wants to get into some serious bench racing here BBC vs SBC..i am ready !!!!...BRING IT ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'LL SERVE 1ST...

I will give any small block on this thread the back tires and the leave..and pat on you 3 times before we go thru the traps !!!..how about that..SMALL FRYE'S......lmao... :D :D :D :D :) :) ...

ohhh i didn't say pat on you 3 times...owwwwwwww that hurt...lol

brian

[woodsman]

I will let the small block guy's leave before I get my suit on.

[bjuice]

owwwwwwwww..that stings...LMAO

[lotsof454sss]

I think I saw this coming and I also think this may be a long thread and even some neebies will get in on it...bjuice must have served and ace...But alas I am sure a "little block" will chime in if we listen closely..

[qtrmile2]

I'm a small block guy from the day I was born. Now the motors I build and run are all SBC. I've never built a BBC. It just fun when people ask me what our cars run and I tell them what the ET'S are and they say BIG BLOCK???? NOOOOO SMALL BLOCK. I will say and the end of the day Big blocks are gunna be faster. But there is nothing like a 10,000 rpm small block stick car to wake you up. You can tell when they do there burn out. I've beat a lot of big blocks at the track and on the street and it is a sweet feeling.

We've had a 615 cu in motor and ran 8.50's in a 3500lb and a 355 cu in motor and ran 9.30's in a 3500lb car. These were all motor. The cost is like night and day. It's a lot cheaper to build and maintain a 355 motor. Nothing at all against big blocks. I love em both.
Just my opinion guys and what I have experienced in my racing days.

[mytmouz]

Bjuice & Woodsman, I'll accept, if you come down here. Too broke to travel...

[bjuice]

nothing like hearing those CRICKETS on that Big RAT motor...

Brian

[tommynos]

this is what like to call the big block killer :lol:
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb49/tommynos/Picture1077-1.jpg

[woodsman]

Brian I think what he said was he's going to give you two lights pat you 2 time and slow down at the end to see if you can catch up. I don't know I am still getting my suit on.

[mcracecars]

hey, I started with small block years ago, they are great, and there is nothing like a chevy 302 singing at the top end, but, as brian said, the tork of the big block, and stick a 12-71 and a birdcatcher, spin it 20 over, it sings nicer than the small block, and makes you wonder what the heck nitous is... :lol:
but whatever it takes to go fast and have fun, thats what makes this hobby/sport so great....
big blocks for me......

[bjuice]

and the sound of 'Crickets' linger on............................................ole Tom where are you our BBC brother in arms...

[camaro74454]

And this would be a small block killer...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c17/gray87TniTerider/rxenginecompt.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c17/gray87TniTerider/rxcamaro.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c17/gray87TniTerider/rexheaderotherside-1.jpg

[bjuice]

this is what like to call the big block killer :lol:
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb49/tommynos/Picture1077-1.jpg


Hey What is that smalL block doing with 2 SMOG PUMPS ON IT ?...i thought California only made you have 1 smog pump...LOL

[tommynos]

man!!!..i cant get a minute of power scare :lol: you had to pull out that pic didnt ya :cry:

[Minne2]

Big blocks all the way!

[woodsman]

OMG what just happen another big block.

[bjuice]

..and the 'CRICKETS" cherp on.....here small block, here boy.....

[tommynos]

Big blocks all the way!i need to see some i.d with this vote please :lol: o.k who is tainting the votes?

[bjuice]

Hey TommyNos...we are still in low gear and 1/4 throttle..we about to cut loose now...hope you small fryes can keep up...i knmow of one small block dude that hasn't showed up yet......ole ZIPPER...maybe he will not see the thread...lol

[woodsman]

Well I got my suit on an just cranked mine and sucked up two small block you all stay back I am going to the line.

[tommynos]

Well I got my suit on an just cranked mine and sucked up two small block you all stay back I am going to the line.ill see ya in 14 seconds :lol: ill be waiting at the line wiping the oil off the track from that hard pass you ran..j.k:lol:

[hammertime]

this is what like to call the big block killer :lol:
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb49/tommynos/Picture1077-1.jpg

This is also what you call a small block killer ...
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa306/Dragster387b/101_0428.jpg


*EDIT*
Tom

[bjuice]

Looks like the TIN MAN on CRACK from the WIZARD OF OZ !!.

[woodsman]

Ok hammertime what is that beast.

[bjuice]

from what i can tell its a BBC twin turbo,intercooled,kinsler injected blow thru motor..
i just wonder if they can get it to run crisp..that is some very tricky,hyper sensative stuff that have hooked up ...

whats the CI hammer ?....

[woodsman]

from what i can tell its a BBC twin turbo,intercooled,kinsler injected blow thru motor..
i just wonder if they can get it to run crisp..that is some very tricky,hyper sensative stuff that have hooked up ...

whats the CI hammer ?....

Brian I am just going to trust you on that one. Thats just to much stuff going on for me but it sure looks wild.

[chevguy65]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4718950188115489950&q=small+block+chevy&total=399&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Nuff said 8) :P 8)

[hammertime]

Brian you are right on its 497ci and big cheif heads also.
Built for a boat but just sold to go into a drag car ... should be a wild ride !!

[camaro74454]

I think I found another of those small block killers...

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/neilandsaraht/565withSupercharger010.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k5/neilandsaraht/565withSupercharger012.jpg

[Racefab57]

Ive run wicked little sbc, turned 12000rpms, LOVED IT!!!!! now Im into big inch alum sbc !!! I agree with sommers, bbc's are for towing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[zipper06]

You big b/blk better watch out!!!,
How quickly you forget, pro-Stock trucks running on gas 358" and running 7.40's at close to 190mph. No turbo's no superchargers, just raw power, uh,oh, did i tell the truth or WHAT!!
Hey Brian, i saw the thread :P my injected 377" ran 5.16 1/8 in an 1850lb dragster at Memphis at super chevy.
That some big b/blk times. i've run blown b/blks and blown small b/blk and injected and carberatered big and small and i have to agree that you have to run the dog poop out of a s/blk to stay with a b/blk with less build up, but for what it cost i'll take a s/blk any day. Obviously i voted s/blk.

See vid below.

358"'s brodix track 1 heads 1471 littlefield 1 to 1 drive, with buzzard catcher, in a 2600 lb car without driver. 4.62 in 1/8, next time i'll tune it up and you b/blk guys better watch out. I only idle it this way for the fun of staging, goes to the line like a frog.

PS, it's going back to life as a 383" with good heads and into an 1800 lb Anglia.

o'h don't worry about the smoke its just oil on the headers.

Zip. :D

I'm behind the camera, my friend Jeff is who you see in the pics. i put the motor in his car to try it out.

You guys have shown pics, here is reality.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3005024568453485455

[zipper06]

Hey Wesley,

(quote:}
(Well I got my suit on an just cranked mine and sucked up two small block you all stay back I am going to the line.)

We got a 66 nova just like yours over here at Twin Cities owned by LJ Jorden that runs 8.30's to 8.40's with a s/blk with a toilet bowl all day long.

Zip

[woodsman]

Hey Wesley,

(quote:}
(Well I got my suit on an just cranked mine and sucked up two small block you all stay back I am going to the line.)

We got a 66 nova just like yours over here at Twin Cities owned by LJ Jorden that runs 8.30's to 8.40's with a s/blk with a toilet bowl all day long.

Zip

Zip if I ever get mine running maybe one day I can run over and check you guy's out when it cools down some. I would like to meet you in person and check out the hotrod. I am hoping to run some numbers like that if they will let me go down the track.

[zipper06]

Wes, you will get it runnig and i would love to see you over here. We have a couple bad ass cars over here including a 1949 ford pickup (OUCH!! to the chassis builders on here) with the original frame and a wooden bed it looks like the (salad dressing)Hidden Ranch delivery truck(owned by a friend that's affectionly called Ears) nick named that because one day he ran 8.10 and didn't pull the shoot. When asked how he ever got around the shutoff road he said i just stuck my head out and my ears slowed it down.(hehe he does have big ears)
No kiddin this truck was owned by my best friends dad in 1969 when Ears bought it. I have pics. when my friend and his sister was like 10 yrs. old, it was go to work truck with a 396" and he used to race it on sat. nite.
One day i'll post all the pics. and some runs in a video of the truck. It now has a 632" with a ton of nitrous and has run 7.91 at 191mph at twin cities.

Zip.

[oldtimer]

Currently I run a BBC. In an effort to cut weight and go faster I will be going to a small block next season. Love them small blocks.

[bjuice]

Currently I run a BBC. In an effort to cut weight and go faster I will be going to a small block next season. Love them small blocks.

yes but isn't that like saying i am going on a diet to loose weight,,so i guess i will cut off my leg?...lol....
why not keep the BBC and remove weight else where on the car ?

thanks
Brian

[tommynos]

the question for me is "how fast do you want to go"?the next step is how much do you have to spend....i can build a 10 second small block cheaper than a big block...but then again i could be wrong,as ive never built a bbc,but this is what ive heard....?

he may want to eliminate all that needless weight(bbc :lol: )and go fast enough with a sbc...

p.s.....small blocks are winning :lol:

[bjuice]

ok we can settle this debate fairly easy if we use the HP vs Body weight theory...( leave the unknown out of it such as hooking up etc...)

With all the on-line calculators to determine ET'S and MPH...We can narrow this down....

lets use RETAIL pricing on the parts for sake of argument...

now imgaine we have the same ( identical car) 69 camaro 10 inch tire car that weighs 3400 with driver......Keep in mind eveything is the same throughout car,,,even the driver... ( for the sake of agrument)

Our target HP goal is 900hp...( someone out there please find us one of those fancy charts to figure how fast we will run,,with 900 hp at 3400lbs)


next figure how much it will take to build a 900 hp BBC,,,,,and then how much it would take to build a 900 HP sbc........

lets keep it fair..naturally aspirated on both sides..can't be puttin blowers and turbo's on small blocks unless you allow it on the BBC.

So do some figuring on this...i can already tell you that you gonna need a minimum of an 18 degree Small block with exotic heads ( sb2 etc...)...i can already tell you that a convential head BBC will make 900hp no problems...

so lets start figuring.... SO the question is........can you build a 10 second small block cheaper than a 10 second BBC...i say no....what i mean by 10 second et's is 10.0 or teens...NOT 10.90'S...

Brian

[mcracecars]

i can build a 10 second small block cheaper than a big block..

Ok, pardon me, I misunderstood, only 10 sec cars here is it,? I thought you small block guys were SERIOUS about going fast :lol: :lol:

You small block guys can go and play with your little toy motors... and leave the real hp to the real men with the biggin's :shock: :lol: :lol:




disclaimer.... the above is posted in fun and jest and is no way representitive of how i really feel about small block motors or the guys that own and run them.... : :shock:

[camaro74454]

For now..but don't get too happy....As far as building a cheaper sb, I think hp cost the same no matter waht engine you are building

[tommynos]

ok we can settle this debate fairly easy if we use the HP vs Body weight theory...( leave the unknown out of it such as hooking up etc...)

With all the on-line calculators to determine ET'S and MPH...We can narrow this down....

lets use RETAIL pricing on the parts for sake of argument...

now imgaine we have the same ( identical car) 69 camaro 10 inch tire car that weighs 3400 with driver......Keep in mind eveything is the same throughout car,,,even the driver... ( for the sake of agrument)

Our target HP goal is 900hp...( someone out there please find us one of those fancy charts to figure how fast we will run,,with 900 hp at 3400lbs)


next figure how much it will take to build a 900 hp BBC,,,,,and then how much it would take to build a 900 HP sbc........

lets keep it fair..naturally aspirated on both sides..can't be puttin blowers and turbo's on small blocks unless you allow it on the BBC.

So do some figuring on this...i can already tell you that you gonna need a minimum of an 18 degree Small block with exotic heads ( sb2 etc...)...i can already tell you that a convential head BBC will make 900hp no problems...

so lets start figuring.... SO the question is........can you build a 10 second small block cheaper than a 10 second BBC...i say no....what i mean by 10 second et's is 10.0 or teens...NOT 10.90'S...

Briani love the disclaimer obove in the other guys post :lol:

anyway 900 hp on the street is just not going to be street no more,unless its threw turbos...so with that being said i guess i wouldnt want a 900hp small block and that puts me back to"how much horsepower do you want"now then again i know some 8-9 second turbo regal cars that are very streetable and could drive anywhere...

imo our raw horsepower age is getting to be a thing of the past,but thats another debate to come :D

i guess if i was going to build a hot rod to go foward and never have to turn id go with bbc,but with bbc all that weight wont let you make turns :lol:

[woodsman]

Brian I show to get 670hp @ the rear wheel on 10.00 ET w/ 136 mph in a 3400# 69 Camaro.

[zipper06]

What no one has looked at here is torque values, given a 900HP b/blk and the same 900HP s/blk in a 3400lb car the b/blk will get to the finish line first in almost every case, because getting to the other end requires torque more than HP in a heavy car.
You can get 800 ft.lbs. torque form a 900HP b/blk where as a s/blk will struggle to get 700 ft.lbs..
You would have to spend $10,000.00 min. on parts alone to build 900hp with a s/blk and i believe a b/blk can be built for about $7,500.00 in parts. So the budget minded can go faster cheaper with a b/blk. but it sure is fun to outrun a b/blk (SOMETIMES) with a s/blk. I wouldn't mine having a b/blk but the only parts i have for one is a hilborn stacks injection unit and valve covers.

Zip.

PS> I still like s/blks

[camaro74454]

Tommy, I'll let you know how it turns in a little while..so far the only thing that lets me know that it's a BB is the raw power....and the painful idle sound.

[bjuice]

Brian I show to get 670hp @ the rear wheel on 10.00 ET w/ 136 mph in a 3400# 69 Camaro.


so with the good median of 20% loss of horspower thru the drive line/chassis..this is approx 840 hp at the fly wheel...

also Zipper is right on the TQ,,,this is why they pull so good etc......

ohhh yeah i will agree that i was a Die hard small block man for 37 yrs of my life...all i can say to people is get you a decent running BBC and if SPEED AND POWER is your thing...your gonna love it.....and never look back....if it happned to me...


Now guys we are talking about blower's turbo's etc....you guys realize now that Wes has a 572ci BBC with a blow thru Prochager...i am telling you now its going to be NO JOKE behind that wheel....
Wes intercool that bad boy and you gonna have GODZILLA ON STERIODS.


this has been fun.

Brian

[tommynos]

Brian I show to get 670hp @ the rear wheel on 10.00 ET w/ 136 mph in a 3400# 69 Camaro.


so with the good median of 20% loss of horspower thru the drive line/chassis..this is approx 840 hp at the fly wheel...

also Zipper is right on the TQ,,,this is why they pull so good etc......

ohhh yeah i will agree that i was a Die hard small block man for 37 yrs of my life...all i can say to people is get you a decent running BBC and if SPEED AND POWER is your thing...your gonna love it.....and never look back....if it happned to me...


Now guys we are talking about blower's turbo's etc....you guys realize now that Wes has a 572ci BBC with a blow thru Prochager...i am telling you now its going to be NO JOKE behind that wheel....
Wes intercool that bad boy and you gonna have GODZILLA ON STERIODS.


this has been fun.

Briani think thats funny about going big block and not turning back as steve keech is local to me and he built that baldwin motion big block in the car that was on summit...i see him alot now as they are filming to do a show on tv(possibly)he was all small block,as long as i knew him and was known to build some wicked small blocks too,so now i see him and every car he owns is big block allmost,he has a nomad that was allways small block,not no more,,,,..it seems he did the same thing,when you mention small block he acts like he never had one :D that one pic of the small block with twins is actually one car he built,most all the rest are big blocks...

[3dracing]

Hey Zip I have a conventional headed big block that runs that in a 1950 pound dragster on gasoline 477 ci. I have another one in the car now that runs 4.78 at 145 in the 1/8th. THIN MAY BE IN BUT FAT IS WHERE IT'S AT.


Steve

[zipper06]

Hey Zip I have a conventional headed big block that runs that in a 1950 pound dragster on gasoline 477 ci. I have another one in the car now that runs 4.78 at 145 in the 1/8th. THIN MAY BE IN BUT FAT IS WHERE IT'S AT.


Steve

We can't do it on gas, but, Jeffs dad died a couple yrs. age with a stomach anurisium and left him a 69 Cougar (434") and a dragster with a (434") this added to his already ugly dodge and a dragster. both cars will run 5.90's and the dragsters will run 4.90's on stacks injection and alcohol. Which is not as fast as a b/blk but still pretty good for s/blk's none of the engines has more than $10,000.00 in them and are 23* heads.

John A./aka/Zip.

[woodsman]

Brian I show to get 670hp @ the rear wheel on 10.00 ET w/ 136 mph in a 3400# 69 Camaro.


so with the good median of 20% loss of horspower thru the drive line/chassis..this is approx 840 hp at the fly wheel...

also Zipper is right on the TQ,,,this is why they pull so good etc......

ohhh yeah i will agree that i was a Die hard small block man for 37 yrs of my life...all i can say to people is get you a decent running BBC and if SPEED AND POWER is your thing...your gonna love it.....and never look back....if it happned to me...


Now guys we are talking about blower's turbo's etc....you guys realize now that Wes has a 572ci BBC with a blow thru Prochager...i am telling you now its going to be NO JOKE behind that wheel....
Wes intercool that bad boy and you gonna have GODZILLA ON STERIODS.


this has been fun.

Brian


Brian I am just a small man so I think I am going to take the steriods before I face Godzilla to give me courage to put him in his place. The fastest that I have ever gone is a 5.24 1/8th and I am thinking if I can get Godzilla's power to the ground I am going to go a bit faster. I dont want to sound like a wimp but I think its going to take me awhile just to get back to 5.24 but I will get there.

[ash]

OK,.....Who wants to race against my inline 6 with a header and a wicked cam???????? :shock: :shock: :roll: :roll: :lol: The only thing that matters when you want to argue c.i. is.... does the engine(motor?) make YOU happy?

[bjuice]

let me tell you ...there is no whimps running anywhwere close to a 5.24 ET......as a matter of fact the line is Drawn at 6.50 et.......many people can run down to 6.50's with moderate funding and SO-SO know how with tunning Motor/chasiss.......but getting lower than 6.50 the stakes go up..the cost get higher and the tunning gets finer...

the 5.99 mark is the next toughest level to reach,you got to be on your 'A' game you gotta be coming out of the gate hard and your stuff better be putting out 98 to 100% of what it can do....

down to 5.50's and you have to be able to work on your own stuff and know how and why it works and you must stay on top of it..or have a great Pit man..also the cost is not for the average guy..

5.50's to 5.0's...you have spent a LOT OF MONEY,,YOUR STUFF IS TOP OF THE LINE AND YOU ARE ON TOP OF YOUR GAME DRIVING AND EQUIPMENT.

4.90's and below is another world..LARGE Money invloved..a-lot of luck combined with a lot of the above..and HUGE CO-CO NUTS...

Thats my take on it..

anyone else ?

Brian

[camaro74454]

This is really the best feedback I've seen on this poll. There is a ton of info here, not just guys tossin around what they like. I just can't see the small blocks winning.

[tommynos]

let me tell you ...there is no whimps running anywhwere close to a 5.24 ET......as a matter of fact the line is Drawn at 6.50 et.......many people can run down to 6.50's with moderate funding and SO-SO know how with tunning Motor/chasiss.......but getting lower than 6.50 the stakes go up..the cost get higher and the tunning gets finer...

the 5.99 mark is the next toughest level to reach,you got to be on your 'A' game you gotta be coming out of the gate hard and your stuff better be putting out 98 to 100% of what it can do....

down to 5.50's and you have to be able to work on your own stuff and know how and why it works and you must stay on top of it..or have a great Pit man..also the cost is not for the average guy..

5.50's to 5.0's...you have spent a LOT OF MONEY,,YOUR STUFF IS TOP OF THE LINE AND YOU ARE ON TOP OF YOUR GAME DRIVING AND EQUIPMENT.

4.90's and below is another world..LARGE Money invloved..a-lot of luck combined with a lot of the above..and HUGE CO-CO NUTS...

Thats my take on it..

anyone else ?

Brian
that about sums it up nothing left to say...but....small blocks rule!!! :lol: ok sorry,forgot my meds :D

[woodsman]

Brian (you have spent a LOT OF MONEY ) have you ever been told that during any of your builds. Well I have and with due cause. Most of you guy's know my story with my engine and Brett Bowers from back in Oct of last year. I had told my wife that there was a engine in RJ that I wanted to get. She said how much is it I said $12500.00 in the ad she said get it well after two months he said that it would be $17800.00 and he said he wanted to change some thing. She said do you need that and of course I said I did. Well after seven months he calls me an tells me it will cost $19200.00 and I said send my money back. So she tells me you are not going out of this state to get a motor built that were I am putting my foot down. So I end up at RMRE and guess what I get it ahead of the time they said but now I have spent $24000.00 on a blower motor that does not have the blower on it. So to just finish this up I went out to buy a motor off of RJ last Oct for $12500.00 and I have now spent $36600.00 getting the engine ready to run. $5200.00 on trans. $1400.00 on converter. $6000.00 on two rear ends. Torn the inside of the car out that I just got redone. And I can see another $5000.00 before I get it to the dyno. All I say now is how much when they call me and start with WELL WE JUST FOUND. So if anyone needs to confirm what Brian said (you have spent a LOT OF MONEY ) then just ask my wife. Mama has just been hanging on saying you have spent a lot of money.

[3dracing]

Well Zip my 477 I have had since '98 and was the first stuff I bought from Reher-Morrison and my first dealings with Wes out there and I have less than 5500 in it. The motor that is in the dragster now that runs 4.70's I have over 10,000 in it. All the parts for in came from RM also.


Steve

[bjuice]

No Doubt Wes !

Brian

[tommynos]

looks like ill never be at your level as i just dont have the money to make that kind of power,not that i would use it....i like to drive my rides to the track and back....if i had that kind of money to put in a ride, i would do a twin turbo small block,with ac....street tune it around 800-900,which is way more than needed for me at the track or next to a hyabussa...

i have a friend local to me that spent 25k on a big block motor and he is on this site too,problem is he did that before buying a house :shock: that to me is a addiction...he now owns one,but it was 2 years after the build...i do love watching those mean cars i see in your sigs going down the track :D

[woodsman]

Tommy the best thing for any of us to do is take care of our house hold an wife an kids first. Then build the car of our dreams with in our own budgets. My brother and I have tried to stay with the boys with money and it cant be done someone always has more. We on Racing Junk are all at diffrent levels of budgets but I think all have the same goal in mind to have the best and most out of our hobby's. cepx111 has the best quote that we can all appreciate " Racing is a disease for which the only cure is poverty " I think that may be a little extreme but there is a lot of true to that.

[lively]

I SECOND WESLEY---FAMILY FIRST---CAR SECOND!!! 8) 8) ---IT WON'T WORK OTHERWISE :shock: THE CAR IS THE HOBBY NOT THE FAMILY :) :) ---LIVELY

[lotsof454sss]

Well not being a racer I can testify that just vehicles can cost a man alot...I have a nice collection as some know and I have sunken the money from the farm in them but I have what I didn't have when I was younger and we all work for that I think....But your right, FAMILY FIRST and toys after.....I am still waiting to break the tie in voting but it seems it will never end as some how the "Little Ones" keep coming up with mysterious votes...

[ash]

I KNEW it!!! You're scart of my 6 cyl!!! :roll: :lol: :lol:

I'll agree with the Wife an' Kids coming first! Got four daughters who think Dad is nuts, liking cars an' all. And a very understanding Wife who thinks it's safer to let me play with my car than to invite me to her side of the family get-to-gethers! :wink: God Bless `em All!

[camaro74454]

Yep faimly first..I'm just glad the wife never complaines when i buy a part.
It is funny that no matter what level you have to spend you meet someone that has more....I just want to learn what the guy ahead of me knows...just so I can reagh that level and feel small again.

Find the small block guys that keep voting and post up some u tube videos for them to watch instead of voting.

[tommynos]

Tommy the best thing for any of us to do is take care of our house hold an wife an kids first. Then build the car of our dreams with in our own budgets. My brother and I have tried to stay with the boys with money and it cant be done someone always has more. We on Racing Junk are all at diffrent levels of budgets but I think all have the same goal in mind to have the best and most out of our hobby's. cepx111 has the best quote that we can all appreciate " Racing is a disease for which the only cure is poverty " I think that may be a little extreme but there is a lot of true to that.ive allways been one to not have to be better than the next guy,i like my vehicles and have many nice ones,but its to make me happy...when i race my car i dont mind telling what it ran and i dont mind getting beat,its never bothered me...some people are soo secret on what their car runs and allways try to go faster...ill never want more than 10s and im 35 and have raced since my first hot rod at 17(68 mustang)...i could pull some equity out or sell one of my many vehicles or just use some money to build a 7 second car,but i dont do much track time and to me,if i tow it to the track and run down the track and make that 7 second pass,i may be shaking a bit....,but its not a car i can jump in with the family and drive 80 miles in the summer time,to me the only way that could be done is with the twin turbo small block with a 6 speed behind it...

but my camaro is a 10 second car,with a 125 shot...and my gn is 11s all day with comfort and a/c,and one heck of a stereo...i have a stage one 9 second motor all new sitting for it,and it dont bother me not having it under the hood...i love race cars and i see many on this site,including yours...i like seeing a extremely clean race car,im more into making them look perfect than crazy fast,ive seen both too,but 10s is fast enough for this guy :D 11s will do too,heck 12s is faster than most cars on the road...

[zipper06]

I'm a little surprised that the s/blk vote is running this close to the boat anchor b/blks (HeHe, don't shoot the messanger) Most of the posters on this forum has bigger CU IN motors than i have dollars in my checking account. I personally as stated earlier have run both big and small mtrs. about 20 yrs. ago i decided to go to s/blks and have accumilated a large quanity of s/blk parts. I couldn't afford to change if i wanted to. Living on SS and a couple rentals, it's just not in my budget. As Wes said he has spent $36,000.00 and change on a long blk. and i'm sure that BJ has spent an equal amount on his vette motor. I never plan to go as fast as either one of these guys but i hope to go to the track and attract some attention with my s/blks. Jeez, a few yrs. ago i was at Huntsville's 1 million dollar race and a youngster from Tx. walked away with $175,000.00 in the ft. brake class running a jeepster, and a friend from Memphis won $150,000.00 plus with his dragster running high 4's. Racing is all about focus and being constistent everytime you show up at the tree. It doesn't matter how much money you have or how fast your car is. We've all watched NHRA events and once you get past the Alcohol cars and prostock cars there is no constistency, it's who doesn't go up in smoke or who peddles best.
Not being a pro, i would sooner go the track and face a person who runs so fast that he/she rarely gets down the track except on a good run than to face a person in a 1972 ford pickup running 9.50's in the 1/8 mi.
It's nice to have the whole crowd over looking at your car and taking pics. etc. but then you go up to the line and blow the tires off or get so out of shape it's impossible to win. You have then devoted your car and yourself to a total hobby and cannot expect to ever get your money back unless it's in match races.
When i had the blower motor in my friends Dodge we never won an event, but it was fun. my friend Jeff has made over $3,000.00 in the last month with his dragster and it only runs 4.90, but it does it every time and he's good on the tree.
I guess i'm trying to say that money is not everything, be it b/blk or s/blk you just have to be on your game and i agree this is the most i've ever seen on a poll of this sort, but my gut feeling is that b/blks should win because ANYONE can build them and make them go fast, but it takes a fool hearted smart person with lots of money to build a s/blk to run with them.

O'K, i'm done :P

Zip.

PS, i still like s/blks and i'm going to run run the Mil. dollar race at Memphis if my friend (Bill Taylor aka BTE) will pay me in, after all he is the sponser.

[woodsman]

Tommy I can not say anything regarding the rest of your life style. But I will say this regarding your life style on the love for your hobby you have your head on straight in my book. The only one that has to be happy with your build is you. This is one thing that I see at car show all the time. Is you will have a 100k car sitting some what close to a 6k car and the guy with the 6k car is just as proud if not more so then the guy with the 100k car because he has worked hard to get where he's at. He may not win anything but he is still proud of his ride and will just say I'll get them next time. So I say you are spot on with your post and glad to know you.

Zip you too have some great points. I would just like to say that the almighty just gives you one pass. You don't get to make round two so you better make it a good one. So from a long time ago I said to myself after I have seen my first 4.99 1/8 mile pass I said thats what I want to do. Now I was so close with a 5.24 but you know yourself that .25 is quite a ways off but could have done it on the juice but just was not in the cards that time. This time I am holding the deck and I am going to do my best to meet my goal but not at all cost. If I dont make it I can go to my dirt nap saying I gave it one shot and my best shot. I will live with what ever time this car brings. I am sure after my build I will need lots of help from qualified people in all fields to meet my goal.

[3dracing]

Zip, I met Bill Taylor at Montgomery Al several years ago after he started his new company again and a super nice guy. We use his converters and get them from Neil.

Steve

[qtrmile2]

For all of us old guys. You know it's NOT like it used to be. First to the finish line wins. Not anymore. So why build a fast car? I know it's the pride and acomplshment but to me it cost a ton to go fast and is it nessasary unless your running heads up. It's all about bracket racing and has been since racers got tired of the same guy with the most money winning all the time. They changed racing to bracket racing because it was dying out. So in bracket racing you can loose to a daily driver escort or lumina or what ever.

If your not racing as Pro's it doesn't matter how fast you go. I think it's an individual thing to want to go as fast as you can. When I was younger I couldn't go fast enough but now I want to be dead on consistent. I think it's tough to do with a 7 or 8 second door car. I did say door car because the dragsters are deadly consistent going fast. I guess I'm getting off subject but I still tell my sons that love to go fast that consistency is what you should be looking for to win any kind of money. That's how you win in bracket racing now a days.
My camaro runs 10's and it hooks at most tracks. I figure any faster and I'm gunna have another variable to deal with that will not let me go rounds. I have as much fun running 10's as I had running 9's and it doesn't cost as much. When your getting close to retiring that makes a big difference. Just my thoughts
Sorry to get off subject.

[SST4530]

I really like SB & BB's. However I think all things being equal, dollar for dollar and pound for pound you can't beat a SB. How many of you think given an equal amount $, for argument sake say $6000. that the BB would make more HP. I think in a real low budget application the BB has an advantage, then that advantage gives way to the SB up to about 700HP. After that, the cost goes up exponentially for each HP gained the parts to make big power at that point are off the charts for either.

I can certainly relate to the family coming first, that's why I've been sidelined for a few years now and just starting to get mine back together. Occasionally we have to put things in perspective, although cars and racing have different levels of importance to each of us, we must keep our priorities straight. For example, I need a new third member right now, but I won't spend the mortgage payment to go get it, even though I want to! :?

[mcracecars]

oh man, where do I begin on this subject, I could go on for days......

you guys in the posts above are right on with your views of racing......
I always say now to build and race within your budget and be happy with what it runs.
but we can get bit by the "I gotta go faster" bug and these things will turn into a money pit faster than loosing traction and hitting the wall...
When I was racing every weekend, late 70s early 80s, it was for me gotta go faster. The morgage and bills were always paid, but the time and money spent took a big toll on my first marrige. The race car was the "other woman"
Back then you had to race evey weekend to earn points for attending, so you could make it into the bracket finals in the fall. Quite a toll on a marrige when you are married to a woman that thinks all this is stupid and cars are only for going to the mall.
I have seen a few marriges and familys broken up over this drag racing obsession over the years, bankrupcys, and guys in the end having to sell their beloved racecars to pay off the ex wife or divorce lawyer....
I have also seen guys that were very happy with their 13sec, 12 sec 11 sec cars and in no way wanted to go faster. Consistincy was their goal and it paid off with many wins over the years.

And that is really what we need to do, race within our budgets whatever that may be. My idea has been to build a big block, low compression motor, and a car as lite as you can reasonalbly get it.
Low maintenance and consistency is the result, whatever times it runs.
It is no fun to go to the track, pay all that money for tow fuel, admission to get in , just so you can work on the car. I have been there....

These days going 11s or even 10s on a working mans budget is not unreasonable. Cheap to run and one guy can maintain it at the track.
Now the faster you go, the more money and work goes into it, and by the time you are into the 7s money and maintance has gone through the roof for the average guy. Now you need sponsors and buddies to help you with the car at the track . There are always valvesprings and lifters to check and replace, motor tear downs frequently, rings, bearings, rods, ...you gotta replace these things before something comes out of the side of the block.
Not to leave out all the support equipment you need, 1 ton deasil daully truck, big enclosed trailer, full of shop tools and equipment, spare motor, transmissions etc etc.....
So now this becomes a second job... more stress on family life.
Even if you have a supporting wife and family, there is only so much she will take, you dont want to find where that is...

All this may sound strange coming from a guy that is trying to make a living building these cars for guys, but over the years I have seen a many that get in way over their heads, lose interest or their families and sell everything off at less than half of what they got into it

I could go on, maybe latter,

Big block? Small block?, doesnt really matter in the end if you got a court order to sell it all off and give it all the the ex for support.....

build smart, race smart and you can have a fun hobby and a happy family life, and stay in this game for years.....

[bjuice]

everything posted HAS MERIT in its own time and place with individuals..No question about it....good info to live by..

but now back to the SBC vs BBC......

I still challange anyone to prove they can build more HP and TQ with a SBC over BBC...for the money....

All of the recent post above have centered around running within your budget and putting important things 1st and being happy with what you run... ( i agree with all of it)....also keep in mind weather your brakcet racing,street crusing or whatever, its based on CARS that have power which places all of us on another level and free's our spirit...if this wasn't the case then everyone would be running 1987 (4cyl) Ford escorts and cutting perfect lights with 10k worth of electronics on board....of course i am being a little funny here ..but DO YOU SEE MY POINT ?

But let me say after reading this ..it just validates ( in my head anyway) why someone would want to run a BBC over SBC......
example"
LESS MONEY more HP and TQ....and you dont have to turn the piss out of it ... :D :D :D

BBC RULE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I WISH I COULD VOTE AGAIN.... :cry: :cry: \

Brian

[camaro74454]

I'm one of those guys that is just as happy with my car as the guy with the $100k car, to me it's not about the money invested its that I built it myself. I like to do all the work I can on mine..and If I don't know how to do it I just want to learn....no matter how much I make I will still want to build it myself.
As far as BB/SB if we brake it down to NA mild upgrades nothing too big done , then what would you pick? It's great to see what you guys pick cuz a bunch have had both before...instead of the guys that have never had one..just jumping on the small block cuz they never had a big block..I'm not going to drop any names...

[mytmouz]

Bjuice, does the comparison build use new stuff or swap meet items?

[topfool]

To be honest when I got back into the sport I wasn't really too bothered about big or small block (come to that I would have considered a ford or chrysler). The car I bought had a BBC in it ready to go so thats what I had..

At this point I should explain that racing over here in the uk is a little different, read that as being probably about 2 1/2 times more expensive but still quite good value for us Europeans.

I run in a bracket from 6.3 to 8.99 (1/4 mile) and to be honest thats where it ended up first ever run was a 9.7 easy pass and once I'd done a few it ran regular 8.5's. Now as we don't get the chance to run as much as you guys do, my choice was to make it go as fast as I can, I just enjoy driving the thing....

I've seen some pretty big $numbers up there in this post and as far as I'm concerned it's all about making what you have work..

I won't change my combo now until I get the car into the 7's, and that will be on a single carb and racing gas, I've got a killer engine in my shop waiting to be built and thats where it will sit until I get where I want to be.

This car ran 8.200 @ 160.odd on a 950 cfm 4150 carb, I'm sure it will go 7.90 @ 165-8 with the dominator on it, I'm looking at taking weight off where I can. It's easy to buy power (big or small block) but I think it's much more satisfying to make your stuff work and last, mind you I think I am going to have to rev it past 7000 to do it. I also ran 8.1 soft pass first run of this year so the signs are good (having a year out to get a new workshop built, my lifes a logistical nightmare) so I'll only get a few chances to run as a demo car at one of our 2 tracks.. If I don't get the 7 then I'll leave it in for next year..

When I get where I want to be then I'll put my 540 olds in 200lbs lighter and probably 300 horsepower more, alky injection should liven it up a bit.. I'll then set my target for that combo, it'll stay that way until I get there and then the only thing left is to fit the 14/71 and see where that goes..

In summary big or small does not really matter (and for the guy with the inline six, the number of cylinders is not an issue either) it's making what you have work to the best you can, rest assured friends you can be king of the hill at your track but sooner or later someone with a wad of cash will come along and go quicker. Best you don't try to keep with him, set your own goal and stick to it or it's going to cost some big money..

one thinhg I've noticed is a lot of the small block guys spend a lot of money trying to make them into big blocks, I went the other way I tried to get my big block down to a similar weight to a small block, retaining the torque that it will give oh and when I build it I'm going to rev the T**ts off of it, so in effect it will be a big small block with the advantages of both..

Have I promoted any one or the other? who knows it's just a friendly opinion..

[bjuice]

Bjuice, does the comparison build use new stuff or swap meet items?


Terry below is a copy of my 1st post i used for example.


ok we can settle this debate fairly easy if we use the HP vs Body weight theory...( leave the unknown out of it such as hooking up etc...)

With all the on-line calculators to determine ET'S and MPH...We can narrow this down....

lets use RETAIL pricing on the parts for sake of argument...

now imgaine we have the same ( identical car) 69 camaro 10 inch tire car that weighs 3400 with driver......Keep in mind eveything is the same throughout car,,,even the driver... ( for the sake of agrument)

Our target HP goal is 900hp...( someone out there please find us one of those fancy charts to figure how fast we will run,,with 900 hp at 3400lbs)


next figure how much it will take to build a 900 hp BBC,,,,,and then how much it would take to build a 900 HP sbc........

lets keep it fair..naturally aspirated on both sides..can't be puttin blowers and turbo's on small blocks unless you allow it on the BBC.

So do some figuring on this...i can already tell you that you gonna need a minimum of an 18 degree Small block with exotic heads ( sb2 etc...)...i can already tell you that a convential head BBC will make 900hp no problems...

so lets start figuring.... SO the question is........can you build a 10 second small block cheaper than a 10 second BBC...i say no....what i mean by 10 second et's is 10.0 or teens...NOT 10.90'S...

[mytmouz]

OK, that lets my plan out. :oops:

[tommynos]

I'm one of those guys that is just as happy with my car as the guy with the $100k car, to me it's not about the money invested its that I built it myself. I like to do all the work I can on mine..and If I don't know how to do it I just want to learn....no matter how much I make I will still want to build it myself.
As far as BB/SB if we brake it down to NA mild upgrades nothing too big done , then what would you pick? It's great to see what you guys pick cuz a bunch have had both before...instead of the guys that have never had one..just jumping on the small block cuz they never had a big block..I'm not going to drop any names...
someone call me :D
this is what i believe to be true if you want 10s,11s,12,s or 13s,it can be had cheaper with a small block,if you want faster im guessing a big block will start to become cheaper....if your car is a big heavy pig,you may want to go big block to get in the 10s or 11s cheaper....

small blocks rev higher,and parts are cheaper,and small blocks are my choice only because i like the element of surprise,like i stated before,if you have a big block your exspected to be fast(which most are not :lol: ..jk.)but with a small block built right and the use of a combo and some skillz will make a modded big block owner vote SBC :D plus i like all the room under my hood,and i like stopping and taking corners instead of having to drift around them like BBC owners do :lol:

[bjuice]

ok clarify what you are talking about when you say small block?...someone touched on it a few post ago...
you got all these people out here turning out 454ci small blocks...in theory is this really a small block when speaking of CI ???

I am with ZIP if you are trully a die hard small block guy and love shocking BBC guys then really go with a SBC...let''s say a "D" Stroked 283 CI that turns 12,000 rpm...

i do not buy the 500 ci small block theroy..and try to pass it off as sleeper "poor little ole small block " up against all these BIG bad BBC.


thanks- brian

[tommynos]

ok clarify what you are talking about when you say small block?...someone touched on it a few post ago...
you got all these people out here turning out 454ci small blocks...in theory is this really a small block when speaking of CI ???

I am with ZIP if you are trully a die hard small block guy and love shocking BBC guys then really go with a SBC...let''s say a "D" Stroked 283 CI that turns 12,000 rpm...

i do not buy the 500 ci small block theroy..and try to pass it off as sleeper "poor little ole small block " up against all these BIG bad BBC.


thanks- brian :lol:
well my camaro has a 406...when people here it they all thinks its a big block,i tell them its a 327 just like it says on the side :D
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb49/tommynos/th_Picture1000-2.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/albums/bb49/tommynos/?action=view&current=Picture1000-2.flv)

[bjuice]

i don't blame you i would too...LOL... :wink:

I claimed my 1st Steel headed BBC 468 to be a 396ci for yrs..because the badges on the 69 camaro..

your average guy didn't know the difference...LOL...

[RonOwensRacing]

If small block guy's really love them so much why do they try to get 500 cubes from them .
Like b said then it's not really a small block
So why not just go get yourself a 540 for less than a small block .

[mytmouz]

Anything over a 468 is a stroker big block, just to add fuel to the fire... :P

[zipper06]

Zip, I met Bill Taylor at Montgomery Al several years ago after he started his new company again and a super nice guy. We use his converters and get them from Neil.

Steve

I had been doing business with Bill Taylor from the mid 80's when i lived out west and he still owned TCI, but didn't get a chance to meet him until i moved to Ms. in the mid 90's, i watched his grand son go thru the junior dragster ranks and into his first procomp dragster. He used to come to Memphis every sat. nite 10 yrs. ago, but now his health is not what it used to be, so he only shows up at the major events. I no longer live in Ms. but i still have a residence there whitch i rent out, it's about 45 min from BTE. So i don't see him as often as i used to, but i still do business with him and have one of his strait cut 1.80's PG.
I was just kiddin about him paying me in for the million dollar race, but it's a nice dream.

Zip.

[SST4530]

You guys are on the right track but your going to skew the results. First off there is a point where it's no longer cost effective to compare the two. Once you set the baseline HP so high that the SB guy has to use 18 deg heads then you've skewed the contest in favor of the BB. Why not keep like I said at 700 or 750HP. Would it be because a BB can't make HP dollar for dollar until you get over that magic number? :wink:

[camaro74454]

It's a tough call with the SB's running BB cubes...I'de just go with the 700 750 hp thing and limit it to that.

[SST4530]

It's a tough call with the SB's running BB cubes...I'de just go with the 700 750 hp thing and limit it to that.

Right, once you start stroking and having to add anything other than a 23 deg head then nothing is cheap. If you stay within the stock stroke and head configurations and stay under 415 CID then I'll go against BB any day long as we have HP cap. What I'm saying is I don't think you can build 750 HP BB cheaper than a SB. and even if you did the weight to HP factor comes into play.

[SST4530]

If small block guy's really love them so much why do they try to get 500 cubes from them .
Like b said then it's not really a small block
So why not just go get yourself a 540 for less than a small block .

Simple - Weight! :wink:

[bjuice]

It's a tough call with the SB's running BB cubes...I'de just go with the 700 750 hp thing and limit it to that.

Right, once you start stroking and having to add anything other than a 23 deg head then nothing is cheap. If you stay within the stock stroke and head configurations and stay under 415 CID then I'll go against BB any day long as we have HP cap. What I'm saying is I don't think you can build 750 HP BB cheaper than a SB. and even if you did the weight to HP factor comes into play.


LOL....bLITTLE i was waiting for someone to come back with that one...i was planning my way around this question 2 days ago with my 1st reply on this post..

the ET 10.'s were brought into the Equation....i came up with the 3400 lb rule cause thats what would take in most street trim cars W/dRIVER....all we did was figured out how much HP it would take to power a 3400 lbs car into the 10.0's....and i think wes came up with 670 hp to the rear wheels...and i calculated 20% loss of HP thru the drive train and chassis which would put close to 840 hp at the crank....before these calculations were posted i used a nice round figure of 900 hp...seems i wasn't too far off...
but i would not hesitate to back this up to 750hp and the BBC chevy still comes out on the better side......making 750 HP on NATURAL ASPIRATED 23 degree SBC is still accomplishing a great feat......i have had some ball busting alumin rod 406's that just made 660 hp 750 hp on a 23 degree motor is very attainable but you would not do it with run of the mill parts and a so so- mechanic......my experience owning and spectating..


here is Wes finding he posted a few pages back.....i promise i didn't load up the Contest before the debate started..it only seems that way becuase a BBC makes so much more HP....lol.... :D :D


just for the heck of it here is a copy of what SSRE RACING ENGINES sell their 434 sbc 685hp...11x heads...they have a 750 hp version 15 degree motor.
i'm am sure this will vary a little bit from builder to builder but this is a good idea of what a top quality 434 SBC 23 Degree motor will make..now back this up to 415 CI and take 40 hp off this...which will come in at 650 hp....

I AM NOT ENDORSING SSRE..I AM ONLY USING THEIR ENGINE AND PARTS AS A HP EXAMPLE.

Dart Little "M" 4 Bolt Race Prepped Block w/Splayed Caps • Brodix 11X Aluminum Heads w/CNC Porting • Eagle 4340 4.000" Stroke Steel Crank • Eagle 4340 6.000" H-Beam 3D Steel Rods • Wiseco 14.1 Forged Pistons • SSRE Custom Roller Cam & Kit • Cloyes Billet True Roller Timing Set w/Torrington Bearing • Pro Series 1.6 Aluminum Roller Rockers • New Motown Dominator Intake • SSRE/Moroso Custom Stroker Oil Pan • SFI Harmonic Balancer • Internally Balanced • Dyno Tested & Tuned • Dyno Sheet Provided
725 HP Version includes: Fully CNC Ported Brodix 227M2 Heads, Custom Wiseco 14.8-1 Gas Ported Pistons w/.043/3mm Rings, Upgraded Cam & Spring Package add $1250

Nitrous version available. Call for details.


Less Carb & Ignition


Options:

950 CFM Holley Carb Package includes: Carb, Phenolic Spacer, Aluminum AN Fuel Fittings, Studs & Gaskets. Dyno Tuned, Jetted and Calibrated on your engine. $ 895

1050 CFM Holley Dominator Carb Package includes: Carb, Phenolic Spacer, Aluminum AN Fuel Fittings, Studs & Gaskets. Dyno Tuned, Jetted and Calibrated on your engine. $ 995

MSD Electronic Ignition Package includes MSD Pro Billet Distributor w/Ford HEI-Style Cap, Bronze Gear, Custom MSD 8mm Wire Set. Dyno Tuned and Calibrated on your engine. $ 395

Dart "Little M" 4 Bolt Race Prepped Block w/Splayed Billet Caps $ 300
Callies Compstar 4340 Forged Steel Crank w/Ion Nitriding $ 150
Callies "All American" Dragon Slayer 4340 Forged Steel Crank w/Dura-Tough Heat Treating $ 495
Callies CompStar 4340 Steel Rods w/ARP 2000 Bolts $ 300
Lunati 4340 Pro Mod Rods $ 425
JE Pro Series 14.1 Pistons $ 75
Taperwall Tool Steel Wrist Pins $ 175
Calico Coated Bearing Package (Cam, Rods & Main) Only Available w/Callies Crank $ 125
Crane Hippo (High Pressure Oiling) Lifters $ 250
Cometic Multi Layered Steel Head Gaskets $ 95
SSRE Stud Girdle $ 200
Jesel Shaft Rocker System $ 925
Jesel Belt Drive (includes additional $175 labor for mandatory block machining) $ 1050
ATI Balancer $ 225
Moroso Pro Pan w/Kickout (adds power and better oil control) $ 200
Moroso Vacuum Pump Kit w/Relief Valve (Installed) $ 895
MSD Crank Trigger Ignition Upgrade $ 250
SpeedTech Liquid Force Nitrous System Installed $ 1750
O-Ring Block w/Stainless Steel Wire $ 175
Additional Block Notching Charge (if required w/optional components) from $ 75
Additional Balancing Charge w/Heavy Metal (if required w/optional components) from $ 100





Brian I show to get 670hp @ the rear wheel on 10.00 ET w/ 136 mph in a 3400# 69 Camaro.
_________________
Wesley

[chevguy65]

I went to my trusty race calculator at wallace racing and it shows you only need 597 hp at the flywheel to run a 10.09 @ 130mph in a 3400 lb car.

I say it is a lot cheaper to build a BBC to get that HP and TQ needed, but some guys just got to go small block. :D

[camaro74454]

I would think that 600 hp should get you to the 10's...thats a decent BB and a really worked SB. I know you guys will laugh at it..but a GMPP 572 will get a 3400 car to the low 10's..

[woodsman]

I went to my trusty race calculator at wallace racing and it shows you only need 597 hp at the flywheel to run a 10.09 @ 130mph in a 3400 lb car.

I say it is a lot cheaper to build a BBC to get that HP and TQ needed, but some guys just got to go small block. :D

Carl I was using Tim McAmis race cars in cool stuff there E.T. Calculator and if you put 3400# an 670hp rear wheel it comes up with 10.00 @ 136mph so I dont know which one is more correct. Your guess is better then mine.

[cepx111]

Big Block all the way!!!!!!!
You will be small block guy till you run a big block then you'll never go back. Think of them (small blocks) as starter homes...
Some people never move out and others move on to bigger and better things.

[mytmouz]

Big Block all the way!!!!!!!
You will be small block guy till you run a big block then you'll never go back. Think of them (small blocks) as starter homes...
Some people never move out and others move on to bigger and better things.

Well, I had a 67 Chevelle once that had a low compression .060 350 with stock heads and a small solid camshaft, pulled it out and installed a 350 hp 396 with a solid cam. the 350 ran circles around it.

Next up is a 68 Camaro, had mini tubs, ladder bar rear, fiberglass front cap. This one had a L88 427 style engine, had a set of Brodix heads. with a 300 shot of NOS it would run a 9:30. A 175 shot on a 406 in the truck in my avatar went a 9:23. This was a side by side comparison, I won. :lol:

I like big motors, just can't afford 'em. If you can't run anything but 23# heads on the small block to do a comparison, then the big chief motors gotta go...

[cepx111]

Well heres a comparison too.
73 nova, 396 bored 040 over 12 to 1 compression, 305 magnum hydralic camshaft, small closed chamber oval port heads, 750 double pumper single plane intake. The car ran decent numbers for a heavy car footbraking 7.0's 1/8 this motor had been in this car for 12 plus years with many bottles of nitrous run thru it by the previous owner. Well it finally slung a (stock) rod out one night at the track.
I had been building a smallblock as a replace motor because I knew it wasn't going to be long before the motor was gonna go south and besides I was a smallblock guy before getting this car. So in goes a 350 .060 12 to 1 comp, 305 magnum camshaft and eldebrock aluminum performer rpm heads, 750 carb, single plane intake. I put the motor in the car just knowing it was gonna be faster because of the better heads it had and the fact the car was much lighter now w/ the smalley in place. WRONG, same identical numbers 7'0s 1/8. My point?
I was shifting the big iron between 4800 and 5000 rpm, it was all torque. I was winding up that smalley to 7800 and sometimes 8000 to get same times. Did the small block live 12 years? I dont know I ended up selling the car so I'll never know but I'd bet it didnt. Another comparison.
I am currently driving a heavy all steel 71 nova that has a 496 bbc, it runs 6.0's in the 1/8 shifting around 6200 to 6400 and we got maybe $3500 in this motor nothing special just a torque monster and we run with the lighter tube chassis cars with the high-reving smallblocks that are always oiling the track down when they scatter. Just my opinion but I prefer big blocks now.

[chevguy65]

I went to my trusty race calculator at wallace racing and it shows you only need 597 hp at the flywheel to run a 10.09 @ 130mph in a 3400 lb car.

I say it is a lot cheaper to build a BBC to get that HP and TQ needed, but some guys just got to go small block. :D

Carl I was using Tim McAmis race cars in cool stuff there E.T. Calculator and if you put 3400# an 670hp rear wheel it comes up with 10.00 @ 136mph so I dont know which one is more correct. Your guess is better then mine.

Wes,

I also went to
http://www.eldemoniorojo.com/calculator.htm

First was
http://www.wallaceracing.com/hpcalculatorquarter.php

They range from 537 to 687 FWHP to go 10.09 in a 3400 lb car.
I also added 100lbs to one and that is the highest HP #.

I hear what you guys are saying though, and in 3 or 4 years when my 355 is worn out, I think I wil go BBC.

:D 8) :P 8) :)

[SST4530]

It's a tough call with the SB's running BB cubes...I'de just go with the 700 750 hp thing and limit it to that.

Right, once you start stroking and having to add anything other than a 23 deg head then nothing is cheap. If you stay within the stock stroke and head configurations and stay under 415 CID then I'll go against BB any day, long as we have HP cap. What I'm saying is I don't think you can build 750 HP BB cheaper than a SB. and even if you did the weight to HP factor comes into play.


LOL....bLITTLE i was waiting for someone to come back with that one...i was planning my way around this question 2 days ago with my 1st reply on this post..

the ET 10.'s were brought into the Equation....i came up with the 3400 lb rule cause thats what would take in most street trim cars W/dRIVER....all we did was figured out how much HP it would take to power a 3400 lbs car into the 10.0's....and i think wes came up with 670 hp to the rear wheels...and i calculated 20% loss of HP thru the drive train and chassis which would put close to 840 hp at the crank....before these calculations were posted i used a nice round figure of 900 hp...seems i wasn't too far off...
but i would not hesitate to back this up to 750hp and the BBC chevy still comes out on the better side......making 750 HP on NATURAL ASPIRATED 23 degree SBC is still accomplishing a great feat......i have had some ball busting alumin rod 406's that just made 660 hp 750 hp on a 23 degree motor is very attainable but you would not do it with run of the mill parts and a so so- mechanic......my experience owning and spectating..

here is Wes finding he posted a few pages back.....i promise i didn't load up the Contest before the debate started..it only seems that way becuase a BBC makes so much more HP....lol.... :D :D

Brian I show to get 670hp @ the rear wheel on 10.00 ET w/ 136 mph in a 3400# 69 Camaro.

You'll never here me say a SB is capable more power than a BB. I've owned BB's though and I'm still not convenced that working within a specific budget, HP range, and remaining normally asparated that a BB is cheaper to build. The parts for BB alone are about a 1/3 again higher than SB stuff. You loose a tenth right out of the gate just with the additional wieght, did you factor in how many ponies it takes to make up that 10th. You have to be careful where the cutoff point is because as you said making 750 on a 23 deg SB is obtainable, anything over that will require a big jump to at least 18 deg valve train and the cost sky rockets from there. You can always make more power with a BB just becuase it's a bigger pump and has more room to expand even bigger. It's just not cost effective below a certain range.

Also when we start talking about making a car run in the 10's, which is not that difficult. There are many more things that come into play than just HP. I've seen guys with much more engine than me and they just can't get them down the track, either poor tuneup, mismatched parts or suspension setup.

My 3500 LB.(with driver) camaro is a prime example of a 23 deg. SB running low 10's (best et around 9.90 with really good air) I gaurantee I can't build a BB that will run with it for the same money and that's with me doing all the assembly, the only stuff I sub out is machine work. Put this in your benchtop dyno and see what you come up with, never use that stuff myself.

Here are my basic components, no secrets or exotic parts all off the shelf stuff:

GM 400 4 bolt main block .040 over w/filler
5.7 eagle H beam rods
Ross 14.1 pistons
C&A zero gap rings
Cola 3.75 forged crank .002 under / externally balanced
AFR 227 23 deg. 2.100/1.60 CNC race ported heads (some additional port work done by me)
Super Victor Intake (some additional port work)
Holley 1000 HP Carb
Fluidamper balancer
Herbert 635 roller on 106 LC
MSD billet dist
1.875 Hookers
Harland Sharp 1.5 Roller Rockers
.100 long push rods
7 qt. moroso pan

Now as was mentioned before, many things go into getting this sled down the track, everything has to work together. We could each have the same engine and get different results from them just because of mechanical or tuning ability. :)









_________________
Wesley

[tommynos]

my last small block i had in my 68 back in 93,it was a 350 2 bolt and it had just some stock x rods,stock bolts and stock crank,i had fuelly heads ported,victor jr intake and a ultradyne solid cam,i ran a 125 shot threw it at super chevy and went 11.4,no biggie the thing was i shifted everytime i raced at 7600,many times i went further when i was trying to blow it or being stupid,that motor lasted me 6 years of hard racing,i sold it and the guy spun the key way and retorqued the crank wrong and it finnaly came apart(1 year after)...some say i just got lucky with that block,i say build a SBC,or at least vote SBC :lol: if not just for my story :D..also it had cheap KB hyperputetics

[bjuice]

It's a tough call with the SB's running BB cubes...I'de just go with the 700 750 hp thing and limit it to that.

Right, once you start stroking and having to add anything other than a 23 deg head then nothing is cheap. If you stay within the stock stroke and head configurations and stay under 415 CID then I'll go against BB any day, long as we have HP cap. What I'm saying is I don't think you can build 750 HP BB cheaper than a SB. and even if you did the weight to HP factor comes into play.


LOL....bLITTLE i was waiting for someone to come back with that one...i was planning my way around this question 2 days ago with my 1st reply on this post..

the ET 10.'s were brought into the Equation....i came up with the 3400 lb rule cause thats what would take in most street trim cars W/dRIVER....all we did was figured out how much HP it would take to power a 3400 lbs car into the 10.0's....and i think wes came up with 670 hp to the rear wheels...and i calculated 20% loss of HP thru the drive train and chassis which would put close to 840 hp at the crank....before these calculations were posted i used a nice round figure of 900 hp...seems i wasn't too far off...
but i would not hesitate to back this up to 750hp and the BBC chevy still comes out on the better side......making 750 HP on NATURAL ASPIRATED 23 degree SBC is still accomplishing a great feat......i have had some ball busting alumin rod 406's that just made 660 hp 750 hp on a 23 degree motor is very attainable but you would not do it with run of the mill parts and a so so- mechanic......my experience owning and spectating..

here is Wes finding he posted a few pages back.....i promise i didn't load up the Contest before the debate started..it only seems that way becuase a BBC makes so much more HP....lol.... :D :D

Brian I show to get 670hp @ the rear wheel on 10.00 ET w/ 136 mph in a 3400# 69 Camaro.

You'll never here me say a SB is capable more power than a BB. I've owned BB's though and I'm still not convenced that working within a specific budget, HP range, and remaining normally asparated that a BB is cheaper to build. The parts for BB alone are about a 1/3 again higher than SB stuff. You loose a tenth right out of the gate just with the additional wieght, did you factor in how many ponies it takes to make up that 10th. You have to be careful where the cutoff point is because as you said making 750 on a 23 deg SB is obtainable, anything over that will require a big jump to at least 18 deg valve train and the cost sky rockets from there. You can always make more power with a BB just becuase it's a bigger pump and has more room to expand even bigger. It's just not cost effective below a certain range.

Also when we start talking about making a car run in the 10's, which is not that difficult. There are many more things that come into play than just HP. I've seen guys with much more engine than me and they just can't get them down the track, either poor tuneup, mismatched parts or suspension setup.

My 3500 LB.(with driver) camaro is a prime example of a 23 deg. SB running low 10's (best et around 9.90 with really good air) I gaurantee I can't build a BB that will run with it for the same money and that's with me doing all the assembly, the only stuff I sub out is machine work. Put this in your benchtop dyno and see what you come up with, never use that stuff myself.

Here are my basic components, no secrets or exotic parts all off the shelf stuff:

GM 400 4 bolt main block .040 over w/filler
5.7 eagle H beam rods
Ross 14.1 pistons
C&A zero gap rings
Cola 3.75 forged crank .002 under / externally balanced
AFR 227 23 deg. 2.100/1.60 CNC race ported heads (some additional port work done by me)
Super Victor Intake (some additional port work)
Holley 1000 HP Carb
Fluidamper balancer
Herbert 635 roller on 106 LC
MSD billet dist
1.875 Hookers
Harland Sharp 1.5 Roller Rockers
.100 long push rods
7 qt. moroso pan

Now as was mentioned before, many things go into getting this sled down the track, everything has to work together. We could each have the same engine and get different results from them just because of mechanical or tuning ability. :)



Best SBC defense post Yet..GOOD JOB blittle !!!!


also sounds like you have a good set up to have some fun with.

Brian :D








_________________
Wesley

[SST4530]

Thanks guys, my stuff is not that special but it works good with my combination. So where are we, anyone agree or disagree with my previous statement?

I will say if I decide I want 1500 HP you'll see a BB in my camaro. I have to squeeze 1000 out of the SB first just to say I did. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wait till you see the that one! Got a buddy runs comp with a 318 SB running low 8's in 3000 pound camaro. Putting some of that technology to use in the next one. 14 deg. heads, roller cam bearings, etc...$$$$$$$$$ :cry: :cry: :cry: :shock:

[knova70]

My small block puts out 1586hp at 25% overdriven,it is a 436 SBC in a 3200lb backhalf nova,it is getting a all aluminum 400SBC as we speak with the same components as the 436 and this one is gonna be faster,I will be able to turn this one 50%over on alcohol and not worry,I had a bigblock and it went to a new owner,it was a good boat anchor,Small blocks rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[woodsman]

My small block puts out 1586hp at 25% overdriven,it is a 436 SBC in a 3200lb backhalf nova,it is getting a all aluminum 400SBC as we speak with the same components as the 436 and this one is gonna be faster,I will be able to turn this one 50%over on alcohol and not worry,I had a bigblock and it went to a new owner,it was a good boat anchor,Small blocks rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am just wondering what kind of times are you turning in your Nova.

[knova70]

I went a 5.28 @ 136mph with a 1.22 60ft in the 1/8th,that was my last pass this year,had about 20 runs on the motor,trying to get the fuel problems straightend out,come to find out the the block was cracked in 2 cylinders and was getting water in those 2 cylinders when it was getting up to tempurature,did a leak down on it hot and it was 60% on those 2 cylinders,so hopefully with the new aliminum motor it will go faster,it will be done soon,gotta get my piston rings and rod bearings and then it goes together,after working on other peoples cars all day its hard to work on my own, Have you run the chevy 2 yet?

[woodsman]

I have not got mine running yet cant get it finished I am hoping to have it running by the end of this year. I can not wait to drop the hammer on this one.

[knova70]

Can't wait to do the same!

[tommynos]

My small block puts out 1586hp at 25% overdriven,it is a 436 SBC in a 3200lb backhalf nova,it is getting a all aluminum 400SBC as we speak with the same components as the 436 and this one is gonna be faster,I will be able to turn this one 50%over on alcohol and not worry,I had a bigblock and it went to a new owner,it was a good boat anchor,Small blocks rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i love this post :lol: a girl on my forum has a 9.3 second ls1,now putting in a new motor to run 8s....

[tommynos]

truthfully ive never had a big block,or really even been in a car with a built one...my friend local here makes some fast ones,so i definatly want to try one out,but even if i liked it i couldnt afford to change,and see no need in my situation as im not after crazy HP....but i will drive one of his cars,just to see....

[ken0069]

I went for some shake down runs on my new SBC a couple of weeks ago. It was interesting to see some guys come look at it with the hood off and first thing you'd notice was their jaw drop! "That's a small block", to which I replied "Yup, anyone can make a big motor run!" This was after some off the trailer 5.61 @ 126 passes in a full chassis door car.

But all BS aside, I built what I wanted and I just didn't want a BBC. I owned a 482BBC in a dragster a few years back and it ran 5.00s @ 137. Put my new SBC in that same car and I'll bet it would go as quick or quicker than that BBC did.

Bottom line is what's best for me may not be what's best for the next guy. I've been an SBC guy all my life and at age 62 that's not likely to change now. Besides, I do enjoy having ppl come by in the pits and make comments like "That's an SBC?" :wink:

[spib]

ken instead of telling them its a 434 do you ever say , ya its a lil 327 runs good doesnt it!!!!!

[bjuice]

Congrats on your run Ken..off the trailer that is very impressive ET..heck its impressive for a dialed in Run..i think i know you well enough to say i think we will see some low 30's out of that small block before its said and done..besides there is 2 tenths in the bank with some fall air around the corner...
Awesome Job Ken.....

Brian

[woodsman]

Well all BIG BLOCK owners looks like we won this hands down but to all the small block owners you were always just right there under us. I would just like to say there's a lot of really good stuff in this thread and worth reading it all again.

[nemesisracing]

Well gang, I had to cast my ballot as well! I voted BIG block because "There is no replacement for displacement"!!!!!!!!!!

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with a small block, but my new Mustang has a 4.6 litre which is technically a 281 cubic inch engine.
Well, my Mustang is a STREET car and my 67 Firebird that is equipped with a 468 BBC engine is a RACE car. Ya'll kinda see a little difference here? HA HA!

All joking aside, I have seen some small blocks that would really run it's just what the actual owner prefers as to what works best for you.
Mike

[knova70]

Well all BIG BLOCK owners looks like we won this hands down but to all the small block owners you were always just right there under us. I would just like to say there's a lot of really good stuff in this thread and worth reading it all again. Looks like 51% to the SMALL BLOCKS! You better put on them glasses?

[tommynos]

Well all BIG BLOCK owners looks like we won this hands down but to all the small block owners you were always just right there under us. I would just like to say there's a lot of really good stuff in this thread and worth reading it all again. Looks like 51% to the SMALL BLOCKS! You better put on them glasses?alot of really smart people on this forum is all i can say..they know who their daddy is :lol: SBC...

[camaro74454]

Zip it tommy........Yes alot of know how here... I think that some of the big block guys are sleeping...and even if there are more small block guys...We'll still spank on ya mod for mod.

[tommynos]

well i linked this topic to the camaro forum,so we may have some more votes coming in....this has alot of info on both and should be a sticky,imo...

[Racefab57]

All I can say is SMALL BLOCKS RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! david.

[Bubstr]

I'd like to vote for both. Different horses for different courses.

A circle track, where cubic inches are limited by rules or traction and less weight is worth it's weight in horsepower, Small blocks do rule. Where you have no cubic inch limitations, Big blocks come into their own.

I think the reason we have these debates is us car guys think with our hearts instead of our minds. That's why there are Chevy guys, Ford guys, Mopar guys, and now even Import guys.

My heart still says put a Hemi in everything.

[woodsman]

I'd like to vote for both. Different horses for different courses.

A circle track, where cubic inches are limited by rules or traction and less weight is worth it's weight in horsepower, Small blocks do rule. Where you have no cubic inch limitations, Big blocks come into their own.

I think the reason we have these debates is us car guys think with our hearts instead of our minds. That's why there are Chevy guys, Ford guys, Mopar guys, and now even Import guys.

My heart still says put a Hemi in everything.

What size Hemi is that you are talking about in CID.

[tommynos]

I'd like to vote for both. Different horses for different courses.

A circle track, where cubic inches are limited by rules or traction and less weight is worth it's weight in horsepower, Small blocks do rule. Where you have no cubic inch limitations, Big blocks come into their own.

I think the reason we have these debates is us car guys think with our hearts instead of our minds. That's why there are Chevy guys, Ford guys, Mopar guys, and now even Import guys.

My heart still says put a Hemi in everything.
i like your sig,getting old aint to bad, just think, you can hide your own easter eggs and youll never have to watch a re-run again!

[cepx111]

Dead even at 25 each.
Dam, wish I could vote again....lol
They only count votes twice in my city.
Cp

[chevguy65]

I'd like to vote for both. Different horses for different courses.

A circle track, where cubic inches are limited by rules or traction and less weight is worth it's weight in horsepower, Small blocks do rule. Where you have no cubic inch limitations, Big blocks come into their own.

I think the reason we have these debates is us car guys think with our hearts instead of our minds. That's why there are Chevy guys, Ford guys, Mopar guys, and now even Import guys.

My heart still says put a Hemi in everything.
i like your sig,getting old aint to bad, just think, you can hide your own easter eggs and youll never have to watch a re-run again!


LOL Tommy.....I haven't seen a re-run in years

[camaro74454]

Man...we need more big block guys...like fast.

[topsportsman1]

I know of atleast 6 guys that haven't voted yet,of coarse I am one of them, :P :P :P And the others are BBC guys and real fast :P Get the pic?

The difference between the men and the boys......is the size of their toys :P

[bjuice]

in other words can you say 'S-L-E-E-P-E-R"...can you say "B-E-E-N H-A-D"....can you say you really know what the back side of your behind really looks like....well guess what comes next...LOL......WHAT RULES ??..

come on small block's...you better throw the NITRO TO IT.....

LOL.... 8)

Brian

[strokercamaro]

Big Block is the only way to fly, lost my password and just now found it.
How do I cast my vote?
Greg

[tommynos]

Big Block is the only way to fly, lost my password and just now found it.
How do I cast my vote?
Gregits easy just click the box next to small block and then vote now and that leads you into the voting area...

[topsportsman1]

Big Block is the only way to fly, lost my password and just now found it.
How do I cast my vote?
Greg

At the top of the page Greg,there are two choices, :P well one really,thanks man

Tom

[strokercamaro]

I see the poll, but no where to click.LOL :?:

[topsportsman1]

hmmmm maybe I'll go in and take a look,maybe the time ran out,check back I'll see if I can fix it back up

How about now Greg? It was set for 8 day,it will now be never ending poll,Have fun,hope it works,come on you guys with the big blocks,vote up

Tom

*EDIT*

[strokercamaro]

Thanks Tom. :D

[tommynos]

I see the poll, but no where to click.LOL :?:ahh dont worry about it,go chech out some of those other interesting post,you see the new 4x4 waverunner?...no need to cast your vote :lol:
http://www.break.com/index/awesome-4x4-waverunner.html

[topsportsman1]

Thanks Tom. :D

Try it now :P :P :P

Tom

[camaro74454]

I thought bjuice was pushin for the big blocks?.........But I see how the small blocks win some, by cheatin....Tommy.

[bjuice]

I thought bjuice was pushin for the big blocks?.........But I see how the small blocks win some, by cheatin....Tommy.


ooohhhh i am Big block all the way...my response was a reply to my man Tom's post.....Tom is holding one in the hole on the SBC gUYS..

RE-READ IT

LOL..

brian

[strokercamaro]

Thanks Tom. :D

Try it now :P :P :P

Tom

Worked like a charm.
Thanks guys

[topsportsman1]

Thanks Tom. :D

Try it now :P :P :P

Tom

Worked like a charm.
Thanks guys


This is when the BBC shine,,,On The Top End :P

[camaro74454]

I thought bjuice was pushin for the big blocks?.........But I see how the small blocks win some, by cheatin....Tommy.


ooohhhh i am Big block all the way...my response was a reply to my man Tom's post.....Tom is holding one in the hole on the SBC gUYS..

RE-READ IT

LOL..

brian

Ok, I got confused for a sec, We're back on top they shouldn't be able to catch us.

[tommynos]

im just guessing here :D but im thinking by the end of the day small blocks will have surpassed you BB guys...real bad :twisted: (looks under sleaves),and (pulls rabbit from hat)

[camaro74454]

Well in the end..we know that the big blocks lost to the small block guy cheatin.

[topsportsman1]

Well in the end..we know that the big blocks lost to the small block guy cheatin.

HUH?? I haven't even voted yet,along with 6 others that come on here???

Don't get your undies in a wad now,the IP tracker is workin fine :P :P :P

[Bubstr]

I'd like to vote for both. Different horses for different courses.

A circle track, where cubic inches are limited by rules or traction and less weight is worth it's weight in horsepower, Small blocks do rule. Where you have no cubic inch limitations, Big blocks come into their own.

I think the reason we have these debates is us car guys think with our hearts instead of our minds. That's why there are Chevy guys, Ford guys, Mopar guys, and now even Import guys.

My heart still says put a Hemi in everything.

What size Hemi is that you are talking about in CID.

Ran three sizes, 354, 392 and 426, but the 426 was the money maker if you ran gas.

[doubler]

Okay, I didn't want to get pulled into this but I since the Big Blocks are losing I will cast a vote for BBC.

I remember I had build up a pretty good 350 for my 69 chevelle, and I bought a 67 SS 396 Chevelle not to long after I got the 69 done. My buddy drove my small block car home and I drove my "new" 396 home and outran what I thougt was a pretty decent small block. THe 396 was a bone stock 325hp motor. It was close but the 396 was faster. I was a BBC guy after that. I spent a fair amount building the 350 and then a bone stock 396 was faster? That was all I needed!

Anyways,, I think its the torque that impresses everyone that drives a BBC. And I think that torque is what makes up for the rpms. I had a friend that had a high winding small block and yes he ran fast but at 10000+ rpm. It was a 5spd car and it was wicked low 10 second car. I ran high tens and low 11's with not much of a 427 we built for the chevelle and it didn't have the chassis that he did or transmission at that time.

If Size doesn't matter then why are all the small blocks trying to be big blocks these days? Why not just run a 350 or smaller and call it good? A 454 small block? Not very small...these big inch small blocks are impressive though. It all comes down to what you like, and what your budget allows. I think you can get there easier with the BBC. I like them both, just have been a BBC guy for a long time.

Peace out...

[camaro74454]

Well in the end..we know that the big blocks lost to the small block guy cheatin.

HUH?? I haven't even voted yet,along with 6 others that come on here???

Don't get your undies in a wad now,the IP tracker is workin fine :P :P :P
Hahaha, I'm just bustin Tommy's chops some. I'm tryin to convert him. And a little brain washin...But thats hard to do when you can't find it.

[bjuice]

Well in the end..we know that the big blocks lost to the small block guy cheatin.

HUH?? I haven't even voted yet,along with 6 others that come on here???

Don't get your undies in a wad now,the IP tracker is workin fine :P :P :P

DITTO !!...LMAO

[bjuice]

Okay, I didn't want to get pulled into this but I since the Big Blocks are losing I will cast a vote for BBC.

I remember I had build up a pretty good 350 for my 69 chevelle, and I bought a 67 SS 396 Chevelle not to long after I got the 69 done. My buddy drove my small block car home and I drove my "new" 396 home and outran what I thougt was a pretty decent small block. THe 396 was a bone stock 325hp motor. It was close but the 396 was faster. I was a BBC guy after that. I spent a fair amount building the 350 and then a bone stock 396 was faster? That was all I needed!

Anyways,, I think its the torque that impresses everyone that drives a BBC. And I think that torque is what makes up for the rpms. I had a friend that had a high winding small block and yes he ran fast but at 10000+ rpm. It was a 5spd car and it was wicked low 10 second car. I ran high tens and low 11's with not much of a 427 we built for the chevelle and it didn't have the chassis that he did or transmission at that time.

If Size doesn't matter then why are all the small blocks trying to be big blocks these days? Why not just run a 350 or smaller and call it good? A 454 small block? Not very small...these big inch small blocks are impressive though. It all comes down to what you like, and what your budget allows. I think you can get there easier with the BBC. I like them both, just have been a BBC guy for a long time.

Peace out...


Oh WHILE YOUR ON THE SBC CI..i just heard that Sonny's is Coming out with small block 500 ci or a little over..i will get the info on it and pass ..i heard this ....and thought for a minute..but realized this was probably the case NOWADAYS....


Brian

[zipper06]

With all the hype about small vs big inch mtr. I dialed up Self racing last thursday about their Brodix clone 18 degree heads that have an advertised flow of 420CFM (brodixs flow #'s are 383(CFM) both being fully CNC ported. Self racing sells their heads ready to race with .750 lift roller spings for $3500.00 and a matching manifold for $1000.00. The reason i called them was to get a comparison between my brodix 10rp's which flow 314CFM at .700. i was told that it would be 75 and 125 HP difference. that's a lot of improvment over 23 degree heads. I'm thinking maybe with my current setup (434") it will have close to 750HP on alcohol. If i had the money i would make the switch even having to replace the pistons and rebalance. That's a lot of gain when you consider what it cost to get the HP above 700 in in a s/blk and you wouldn't have to spin it above 7500 RPM.

Zip.

[firestone]

In my experience, small blocks are best for decent power while salvaging some fuel mileage. Or even some big power if you are willing to deal with the expense and maintenance associated with a 7500+ RPM motor. As for all out power, you simply cannot beat a big block. In my opinion, in a street strip weekend car, an oval port 496 is just too easy and cheap to spend the extra time and money trying to make the same power with a small block.

Adam

[chevguy65]

OK so Big block or Small block, I think we can all agree that Chevy engines rule the strip and the streets. :P

[strokercamaro]

OK so Big block or Small block, I think we can all agree that Chevy engines rule the strip and the streets. :P

Misread the first time sorry, I agree. :wink:

[bjuice]

ohhhh my goodness !!!!...what happened to the vote !!...looks like the BIG blocks shifted into high gear....BIG blocks rule Street and Strip......sorry but my mommy said never TELL A LIE !!...lol

Brian

[rabiddawg]

big blocks are overrated.
you can tell real mechanics by the big block numbers they get out of a small block.

[tommynos]

o.k...what just happened?...you moved it and small blocks are falling behind...hmmmm....very suspitious.....time to make some more calls!,i mean, come on people vote Sbc :D

[bjuice]

o.k...what just happened?...you moved it and small blocks are falling behind...hmmmm....very suspitious.....time to make some more calls!,i mean, come on people vote Sbc :D


Hey tommy..its nothing but a CHICKEN WANG..as they say in the south...BBC is the $hit......i will put all my $$$$ on the BBC boys.....

Brian

[bjuice]

big blocks are overrated.
you can tell real mechanics by the big block numbers they get out of a small block.


do you mean getting 500ci numbers and calling it a small block ?..i have to agree it takes a good person to get those numbers (ci) out of a small block....lol..... :D :D

[Racefab57]

I think a sb is a sb, even if you get close to 500 cubes out of it ! its in a small lite weight package !!!!! you cant go any bigger really , its a sbc AND THEY ARE THE GREATEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MAY NOT WIN ALL THE TIME BUT I LOVE EM !!!! David. alum LITE WEIGHT SBC's forever! ive never considered anything else. WORLD PRODUCTS AND RODECKs FOREVER!!!!!! sorry I get excited

[bjuice]

I think a sb is a sb, even if you get close to 500 cubes out of it ! its in a small lite weight package !!!!! you cant go any bigger really , its a sbc AND THEY ARE THE GREATEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MAY NOT WIN ALL THE TIME BUT I LOVE EM !!!! David. alum LITE WEIGHT SBC's forever! ive never considered anything else. WORLD PRODUCTS AND RODECKs FOREVER!!!!!! sorry I get excited

I love it !!!....pLus your fixing to be a CAROLINA BOY SOON...there is hope for you yet in converting to BBC....LOL :D :D :wink: :wink: :roll:

Brian

[camaro74454]

Wow did The big blocks get some votes in there...Ok would it be fair to close voting now? Look tommy..you blinked and were passed.

[Timmyboy86]

if your shotting for over 500 hp or ever plan on having over 500 then go big block i made that mistake and cus myself everday if i only put 250 ontop of what i'm invested now i'd have a 600+ hp bigblock but instead i'm running a 500-550 hp small block.

[billhendren]

With the new Dart 4.5 bore spacing small block its easy to get over 550 cu.in,all it takes is $$$$$$$$$ Bill

[chevguy65]

Big Blocks are great, no doubt about it....what is even greater is driving around a BB car and putting him on the trailer and watching him go home after getting spanked by a lil ole SB :P :P :P

[doubler]

Bill, what happens to the size of the block at 550? I went to darts site and here is the race block specs...you can get 455 with this. Do you use the aluminum block to get 500 or is this a totally new block? Must be...HOw big is the bore on these new blokcs? I can see some advantages to this, lighter, power to weight etc. Anyway disavantages with the newer blocks?

BBC have to go to these much taller decks to get it, 11.1 deck...any new blocks for the BBC coming out to keep up with the "small motor"

Little M
Cast Iron
9.025"
4.00" 4.125"
350, 400
Standard SBC Bore & Location
Nodular Iron or Steel 4 - Bolt
Standard SBC

Iron Eagle
Cast Iron
9.025" 9.325"
4.00" 4.125"
350, 400
Raised 0.391" Std SBC or BBC Bore
Steel 4 - Bolt
Spread Rails

Race Series
355 - T6 Aluminum
9.025", 9.325" 9.500"
4.00" 4.125"
350, 400
Raised 0.391" BBC Bore
Steel 4 - Bolt
Spread Rails

[firestone]

However big you can make a small block, you can always make a big block way bigger using similar after market blocks. Plus, the big problem is not simply the size with the small block, it is more the fact that big block heads flow so much more air. I think the highest flowing small block heads are the Dart little Chief heads or SB 2.2 at around 450cfm (or around 330 cfm for a SBC conventional head and a stock oval port BBC head flows that with a little porting and big valves). A conventional after market ported big block head is capable of flowing almost that. If you get into exotic BBC heads, you are looking at ~600 cfm. For what it would cost to build a little chief headed 550cid motor, you could probably build a 600+ cid big block with big chief heads and probably make another 100-200 hp. Along with being more powerful the big block would most likely also be stronger due to the shear size difference of the parts.

Here is what you can expect between with a conventional Headed big block and a conventional small block in a racing application:

Big block:
http://www.shafiroff.com/sportsman/582_965.asp

Small block:
http://www.shafiroff.com/sportsman/434_685.asp


Here is a big chief combo:
http://www.eatonenterprises.com/632bigchief_enginepackage.htm


Here is what is capable with a big block and a dart big M block and pro stock heads.
http://www.sonnysracingengines.com/products/engines/632-1320hp.htm

Or if you want to really go all out, this
http://www.sonnysracingengines.com/products/engines/811hemi.htm

Sure, you are talking $75,000 but you simply cannot make this power with an N/A small block regardless of the money.

The most I have heard out of an N/A small block in any configuration is ~1100 hp

Here is a good comparison between the best of both that the small block and big block worlds have to offer as far as heads go.

Little chief heads
http://www.mbellc.com/files/Flow%20%20Lit%20Chief.pdf

Pro stock heads
http://www.sonnysracingengines.com/products/heads/symmetrical5inDrag.html


Adam

[woodsman]

Well all BIG BLOCK owners looks like we won this hands down but to all the small block owners you were always just right there under us. I would just like to say there's a lot of really good stuff in this thread and worth reading it all again. Looks like 51% to the SMALL BLOCKS! You better put on them glasses?

Man I just found my glasses and it looks just as good with or without them. Good going BIG BLOCKS.

[bjuice]

yes it looks like i am staring thru a telescope..BIG LEAD for the Big Blocks....WHAT CHA MR WOODSMAN. by the way have you got your wife to vote yet ?

Brian

[zipper06]

yes it looks like i am staring thru a telescope..BIG LEAD for the Big Blocks....WHAT CHA MR WOODSMAN. by the way have you got your wife to vote yet ?

Brian

Hey not fair, she can't vote, same ISP. I know how to vote more because i'm a computer hack, but i'm too honest to change an honest vote. I would have hoped that s/blk would win but the true message here is that b/blks are easier to build and make more HP for the $. I don't feel bad that b/blks are and will win. But i would love to see you b/blk fans when a s/blk motor puts you on the trailer and it does sometimes happen.

Zip.

[camaro74454]

I would just like to thank those that moved this to the tech side of the forum.

[tommynos]

i demand a re-count! :D im from florida and this is common practice,so please clear the votes and let me look them over and ill set them in place proper :)

[strokercamaro]

No hanging chads! Just the facts....LOL
Greg 8)

[bjuice]

yes it looks like i am staring thru a telescope..BIG LEAD for the Big Blocks....WHAT CHA MR WOODSMAN. by the way have you got your wife to vote yet ?

Brian

Hey not fair, she can't vote, same ISP. I know how to vote more because i'm a computer hack, but i'm too honest to change an honest vote. I would have hoped that s/blk would win but the true message here is that b/blks are easier to build and make more HP for the $. I don't feel bad that b/blks are and will win. But i would love to see you b/blk fans when a s/blk motor puts you on the trailer and it does sometimes happen.

Zip.


yeah i know all about those wifes having ESP...mine does it all the time to me.....i hear ya ZIP..

Brian

[r8ceredy]

I can't remember the last time I heard "Man, I always wanted a small block and now that I got it, I ain't goin back!"
Big block man :P

[camaro74454]

No hanging chads! Just the facts....LOL
Greg 8)

Tommy should be usta not havin a hanging chad.... :shock:

[woodsman]

yes it looks like i am staring thru a telescope..BIG LEAD for the Big Blocks....WHAT CHA MR WOODSMAN. by the way have you got your wife to vote yet ?

Brian

Hey not fair, she can't vote, same ISP. I know how to vote more because i'm a computer hack, but i'm too honest to change an honest vote. I would have hoped that s/blk would win but the true message here is that b/blks are easier to build and make more HP for the $. I don't feel bad that b/blks are and will win. But i would love to see you b/blk fans when a s/blk motor puts you on the trailer and it does sometimes happen.

Zip.

Brian, Yes she voted like a good girl BIG BLOCK all the way. O by the way she said that she wants one now.

Zip, I am sorry but its fair because she voted under her name here in the U.S.A. an I voted under my name while I was in Africa at work. HONESTLY BIG BLOCKS DON'T HAVE TO CHEAT. :D :wink: :lol:

[tommynos]

No hanging chads! Just the facts....LOL
Greg 8)

Tommy should be usta not havin a hanging chad.... :shock:
truthfully not sure what that meant so didnt know what to say..re-count is all i know,this has turned into duck hunting...

[racear2865]

OK I got both. Little and a bigggg one. I love small blocks but when I want the small block to run fast, I put someone else in it and I push it with the Big Block car. Ye haw. Damn I love this crap.
racear

[bjuice]

OK I got both. Little and a bigggg one. I love small blocks but when I want the small block to run fast, I put someone else in it and I push it with the Big Block car. Ye haw. Damn I love this crap.
racear

L-M-A-O........ :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[racear2865]

Bjuice
I like you cimment on skinning a cat. If I want to skin a moving cat, I hit him with A PILLAR and rename it to cat----ar. Damn I'm on a roll. Hope the old lady don't make me sign off.
racear2865

[strokercamaro]

No hanging chads! Just the facts....LOL
Greg 8)

Tommy should be usta not havin a hanging chad.... :shock:
truthfully not sure what that meant so didnt know what to say..re-count is all i know,this has turned into duck hunting...

You are from FL. and don't know what a hanging chad is? :?:

[edvancedengines]

I am not eligible to vote.

I am a Big Block Chevy Freak. I build more Small Block Chevys.

I guess I do still build more Big Block Chevys than anthing else though. Fords, Mopars, Pontiacs, Olds, and little stuff both foreign and domestic all comes through here at one time or another though.

Not that any of the others matter in this poll.

Ed

[zipper06]

OK I got both. Little and a bigggg one. I love small blocks but when I want the small block to run fast, I put someone else in it and I push it with the Big Block car. Ye haw. Damn I love this crap.
racear

HeHe, you need to look up :shock: there's a chain on that s/blk car in the front :o it's probably pulling the b/blk along. :lol:

Zip.

[racear2865]

Zip
Know that can't be, small block can't even pull a chain unless it is a string or lighter. I bet it is a rubber band... He Haw. Lady of house made me sign off last night. Said I was having too much fun and then she voted small block. Ain't that just like a woman
racear

[racear2865]

bjuice
screwed up. tried to skin the moving cat when I hit him with A PILLAR. Thought I would get a CAT A PILLAR. All I got was a dead p---y. Now THE WOMAN want speak too me. Said was cruelty to animals. I told her that can't be, I had not been cruel to her. So now she made me sign off again
racear

[camaro74454]

Well watch what you say..before she gets some more small block votes.

1 thing is for sure, even though this was an any make/model question, it seems that the only engines that matter are Chevy all the way.

[bjuice]

bjuice
screwed up. tried to skin the moving cat when I hit him with A PILLAR. Thought I would get a CAT A PILLAR. All I got was a dead p---y. Now THE WOMAN want speak too me. Said was cruelty to animals. I told her that can't be, I had not been cruel to her. So now she made me sign off again
racear


u ain't right man...LMAO..... :D :D :D :D :shock: :shock: :shock: :wink: :wink:

[racear2865]

Bjuice
I'm suppose to be running BB Chevy on dyno.I caught her not looking and I signed own. I recorded the BB Chevy on DVD and when I want on the puter I put the dvd on and she thinks I'm runninf the dyno. She caught me other day and it pissed the cook off. I've lost 20 pounds now I'm worried if she will cut off the p___y especially after I threw A PILLAR at the cat. Probably be cut off for life. Later yunz
racear

[zipper06]

Zip
Know that can't be, small block can't even pull a chain unless it is a string or lighter. I bet it is a rubber band... He Haw. Lady of house made me sign off last night. Said I was having too much fun and then she voted small block. Ain't that just like a woman
racear

I'm guessing that you don't get National dragster, this week there's a big old 1961 ford starliner, for sale with a 434" sm/blk that runs 4.50's and 7.40's hain't too bad for a sm/blk with only a 10:71 blower.

Zip.

[racear2865]

Zip
In all honesty, I do build seceral small blocks for roundy and I am impressed with their HP per cube. Use a aluminum block and aluminum heads and u can be surprised what u can do to hook car up. Just did a 72 Nova this way with 9.5 to 1 comp and drives on pump gas. Made unbelievable Hp for a normally aspirated SB. In turn did a 540 + motor for his best friend and now the debate has started. Can't wait until they finally put em together. Just brag stages now
racear