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Thread: Milky oil and alcohol

  1. #1
    Senior Member MASTER BUILDER
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    Milky oil and alcohol

    I am having some very serious oil milking problems this season.

    598 BBC with Dart Pro2 heads, Enderle 80A-1 fuel pump, Ron's Terminator, Moroso vacuum pump.

    I ran the engine on the dyno before putting it in the car, and got the best HP / Torque figures with #38 nozzles and a #45 pill. The dyno even indiacted that the engine wanted more fuel, but this was the biggest nozzles / smallest pill I had at the time.

    I warmed the car up to set the timing and valve lash. It was idling for about 10 minutes and the temp was only at 110 F. In that 10 minutes, it burned about 5 gallons of alcohol.

    I just made my first run with the new configuration and my oil foamed up so badly that the vacuum pump filled the catch can and forced about a quart of oil out of the catch can breather all over the engine. I know the car is running too rich. The temp at the end of the run was 140 F.

    The correct intake fitting for the vacuum pump is mounted on the end of the valve cover, as recommended by Moroso.

    I can build more engine temp and reduce the oil milking by increasing the pill size but is there any way to reduce the amount of oil the vacuum pump is picking up?

    The fuel pressure at an idle is 60 psi and 170 psi at full throttle. Does this sound high? Should I be running a bypass valve?

    Any ideas?

  2. #2
    Senior Member RACING JUNKIE
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    What do you have your barrel valve leakdown set at, I would suggest around 22 lbs. also i would run a highspeed bypass valve set around 70 lbs. The nozzles are big enough (IMO) The nozzles are flowed at 65 lbs.
    I would think with a -1 pump you should be running a pill some where around .080 with that size motor.
    5 gals of fuel in 10 mins. is definately excessive, also when idling i would suggest you close off the fuel shutoff 1/2 way. I and most of the people i know do this and drive up thru the staging lines with the fuel 1/2 shut off, this helps with the milking of the oil, and puts some heat in the motor before the run.

    JMO

    Zip.

  3. #3
    Senior Member RACING JUNKIE
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    Re: Milky oil and alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by kod99
    I am having some very serious oil milking problems this season.

    598 BBC with Dart Pro2 heads, Enderle 80A-1 fuel pump, Ron's Terminator, Moroso vacuum pump.

    I ran the engine on the dyno before putting it in the car, and got the best HP / Torque figures with #38 nozzles and a #45 pill. The dyno even indiacted that the engine wanted more fuel, but this was the biggest nozzles / smallest pill I had at the time.

    I warmed the car up to set the timing and valve lash. It was idling for about 10 minutes and the temp was only at 110 F. In that 10 minutes, it burned about 5 gallons of alcohol.

    I just made my first run with the new configuration and my oil foamed up so badly that the vacuum pump filled the catch can and forced about a quart of oil out of the catch can breather all over the engine. I know the car is running too rich. The temp at the end of the run was 140 F.

    The correct intake fitting for the vacuum pump is mounted on the end of the valve cover, as recommended by Moroso.

    I can build more engine temp and reduce the oil milking by increasing the pill size but is there any way to reduce the amount of oil the vacuum pump is picking up?

    The fuel pressure at an idle is 60 psi and 170 psi at full throttle. Does this sound high? Should I be running a bypass valve?

    Any ideas?
    I SURE HOPE You have a 1060 Terminator,and NOT a 1055?You NEED the Bigger Injector with Your Combo!
    You Realy could use a 39 or 40 Nozzle.I have a 496 and I have 38's in Mine!
    I DONT Understand the .045 Main?You should be in the .085 Range,do you have a High Flow Barrel Valve?Gray or Purple?
    Zip's dead on with the L/Down.
    DID You have the PUMP Flowed?A -1 Enderle,should be in the 6.5 gal range?
    LMK?
    Later
    G 8)

  4. #4
    Senior Member MASTER BUILDER
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    Quote Originally Posted by zipper06
    What do you have your barrel valve leakdown set at, I would suggest around 22 lbs. also i would run a highspeed bypass valve set around 70 lbs. The nozzles are big enough (IMO) The nozzles are flowed at 65 lbs.
    I would think with a -1 pump you should be running a pill some where around .080 with that size motor.
    5 gals of fuel in 10 mins. is definately excessive, also when idling i would suggest you close off the fuel shutoff 1/2 way. I and most of the people i know do this and drive up thru the staging lines with the fuel 1/2 shut off, this helps with the milking of the oil, and puts some heat in the motor before the run.

    JMO

    Zip.
    Thanks Zip.
    My barrel valve is at at 24% leakdown.
    The reason I started with this configuration is that it gave the best HP and torque on the dyno. It was run on the dyno with no high speed bypass.
    Ron's recommendations were much leaner and when I tried using them last season, the car keopt stalling on me after the burnout or at the top end when I release the accelerator pedal.
    I tried pulling the fuel shut off out half way, but as the engine leaned the idle RPM climbed to over 2200 ( I probably pulled it out too far). I didn't have a lot of time to experiment with the proper setting to lean it out.
    The fuel pressure seems excessively high to me. The more pressure, the more fuel through the orifice (pill) and also more to the main jets. The system in at 60 psi idling.

  5. #5
    Senior Member RACING JUNKIE
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    Do you run a egt or a o2 senor ? if so what are them readings.

    I assume your not leaving the fuel shutoff, in all the time correct ?

    Few things right off, 45 pill is well off in left field, you should jump to a 39 nozzel and a 86 pill. 2nd thing, dyno's always love fuel, we dont race them though, so the data there is usually a bit off. It may make the most there on the dyno but will not in the car.

    Did you buy the setup used or new from rons ? I've never had any luck with the setup that Ron's give me unless its from James Monroe. Your best bet is to call him if you want to talk to Rons. www.killerrons.com

    Likely what is coming out of the breather from the vacuum canister will not stop if it is a older canister, the new ones do not do this. You need to get a wrist sweat band and put over it, or zip tie some type of rag around it, that is a very common problem. I just purchased Moroso new canister and it took care of that issue vs the older ones.

    Injection is rather simple and I am sure you'll get it. A primer would be a great investment.
    David Lanning
    IHRA NHRA 387B

    Fleenor Racing Transmission
    419-280-1406
    Lanning Electric
    Complete Drag Car Wiring
    APD Race Engines
    www.apdracing.com

  6. #6
    Senior Member RACING JUNKIE
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    Quote Originally Posted by kod99
    system in at 60 psi idling.
    also this is way to much, and your high side is to much also.

    Find a 0 1/2 pump and make it a simple deal.. 1 pumps can be tricky to get right sometimes IMO
    David Lanning
    IHRA NHRA 387B

    Fleenor Racing Transmission
    419-280-1406
    Lanning Electric
    Complete Drag Car Wiring
    APD Race Engines
    www.apdracing.com

  7. #7
    Senior Member SENIOR BUILDER
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    First thing I would do is take your dyno sheets, throw them in the trash and forget about them. How they ended up with a system that fat and good numbers is beyond me but that is another matter all together.

    Second, as has been stated by some experienced members, drop back to an 80 main and pull .004 at a time, I'm sure we all think you will end up in the 90's but say 80 just to be on the safe side.

    I always do my warm up and drive through the pits with the handle pulled a little over 1/2 way. I also always run the water pump to keep the heat even through the heads.

    If you continue to pull severe amounts of oil from the valve cover, run a baffle over the fitting inside the valve cover. At the end of an 8 pass race day I will usually have a couple ounces of oil and 6 or 7 ounces of methanol and condensation in the tank.

  8. #8
    Senior Member RACING JUNKIE
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammertime
    Quote Originally Posted by kod99
    system in at 60 psi idling.
    also this is way to much, and your high side is to much also.

    Find a 0 1/2 pump and make it a simple deal.. 1 pumps can be tricky to get right sometimes IMO
    David has a valid point on the pump. I know this is apples and oranges in this post because i'm running Toilet bowl, but i was running a 0-1/2 pump with a 4.1 Toilet bowl, i didn't flush out the pump for about 2 months between races. bottom line i was running between .085 and .095 pill. The pump locked up and broke the drive belt. I installed a 0-1 pump, went back to the track. i made a couple passes trying to get it right. The largest pill i had was a .135 where i was able to make a somewhat decent pass. It was still so fat i scrubbed off 3 MPH and 2 tenths slower. Fortunately i have a couple pumps and am now running a "0" pump with a .070 pill and back on target.

    JMO

    Zip.

  9. #9
    Senior Member MASTER BUILDER
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammertime
    Do you run a egt or a o2 senor ? if so what are them readings.

    I assume your not leaving the fuel shutoff, in all the time correct ?

    Few things right off, 45 pill is well off in left field, you should jump to a 39 nozzel and a 86 pill. 2nd thing, dyno's always love fuel, we dont race them though, so the data there is usually a bit off. It may make the most there on the dyno but will not in the car.

    Did you buy the setup used or new from rons ? I've never had any luck with the setup that Ron's give me unless its from James Monroe. Your best bet is to call him if you want to talk to Rons. www.killerrons.com

    Likely what is coming out of the breather from the vacuum canister will not stop if it is a older canister, the new ones do not do this. You need to get a wrist sweat band and put over it, or zip tie some type of rag around it, that is a very common problem. I just purchased Moroso new canister and it took care of that issue vs the older ones.

    Injection is rather simple and I am sure you'll get it. A primer would be a great investment.
    Thanks for the input Hammer.

    I will definitely change to 39 main and an 85 pill and see what that does.

    I am guilt of leaving the fuel shut off all the way in. Like I said, when I pulled it out to lean the engine and try to build heat, the idle RPM increased to 2200. Did I pull it out too far?

    I don't run EGT or O2 sensors, so I don't have that data.

    I bought the Terminator 1060 new from Ron's.

    The vacuum pump is new from Moroso:
    Pump #22840
    Breather Tank #85500

    I will try the wrist band idea, it sounds like it should work. My breather sits up in the airflow, so I did make the run with a piece of duct tape over the forward facing area of the breater screen to stop the high speed air from being forced into the breather can.
    I am going to build a small aluminum shroud around the oil intake fitting inside the valve cover.

    Instead of changing the fuel pump, can I put my high speed bypass back in with the spring set at 85 psi? That should regulate the fuel pressure.

  10. #10
    Senior Member RACING JUNKIE
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    The idle will increase as you pull out the fuel shut off, this is normal. Think of it at starving it for fuel a bit to build temp (bascially like a lean out for a carb in a sense) You MUST only be at full fuel from the burnout book to the turn off at the end of the track, it puts to much fuel in at idle if not and this is most of your issue I am sure.

    There can be a fine line sometimes on in to far and out to far, 2200 isnt bad and might be a good spot for it, you'll know as it will die if its out to far.

    The wrist band deal does work, many people use this for a band-aid fix for the issue. The moroso canister to get is No. 85467

    You can run a high speed to fix the 1 pump, but its all a pressure deal and a 0 1/2 would be a quick fix, maybe call Enderle and see if they can re-size it ?

    Let me know if I can help you with the injection any further.
    David Lanning
    IHRA NHRA 387B

    Fleenor Racing Transmission
    419-280-1406
    Lanning Electric
    Complete Drag Car Wiring
    APD Race Engines
    www.apdracing.com


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